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The recent preview story hinted (it's a hint, i'm not taking as given but more working off the speculation as others) that traitor Primaris may be a little closer to reality (i'm not predicting a release any time soon).

Do Chaos want them though?

I'm a Chaos player, have been my entire hobbying career, and I can't say I do. Let me just add, I don't actively dislike Primaris, I quite like them but as a Chaos player I think there's better avenues that Chaos can implement utilising it's current range, just in a rules format, than actually getting Primaris.

For example, maybe a better representation of those marines that were not entirely done over by time and have actually spent the better part of 10k years fighting? It would be nice to see these veterans expressed better on the table top, possibly just by buffing Chosen and Chaos Terminators a little more. This could be a little nod back to some of the flavour 3.5 Ed codex had (i'm not advocating infiltrating khorne berserkers but y'know, perhaps fearlessness).

Does anyone else have thoughts?

Chaos doesn't really need the same "Cawl revealed his labs full of 100,000 coincidentally upscaled Marines" excuse that Imperials did to justify it. Between Warp shenanigans, possession and the Dark Mechanicum's unbound experimentation and invocation there's more than a few ways that Chaos Not!Primaris could be 'justified' without causing the same blatant, poorly written rifts in the lore.

I think things like the Greater Possessed are a good example of what they might do. CSM Unit + Warp Juice = Totally-Not-Primaris.

Or maybe not. I wouldn't put it past GW to just slam spikes into Primaris armour and say "they're traitors now."

Why do you think Fabius Bile is getting a new model?

As there is a clear lack of diversity in the game, the answer is the "Chaos Marine" Chaos Marine. Given that current Chaos marines cost as much as "Space Marine" Space Marines, I think its only fair to charge £45 for a set of ten super-hench chaos marines leaping from decorative rubble.

Arbitrator wrote:I think things like the Greater Possessed are a good example of what they might do. CSM Unit + Warp Juice = Totally-Not-Primaris.

In addition to Greater Possessed, I think we're already there with the Cult Marines. Plague Marines and Rubrics have comparable cost and resilience to Primaris, albeit with Plague Marines lagging behind on offensive firepower. The formula seems to be Tacticals = CSM, and then Primaris = warp-infused CSM of whichever flavor.

Unfortunately that leaves Chosen in a weird spot as basically CSM with more guns. I'd like to see them played up as equals to Primaris, using their millennia of experience and Darwinian attrition to make up for inferior biology.

Semper wrote:
Does anyone else have thoughts?

As a rule, there will always be some part of the chaos player base that wants any given part of the imperial lineup.

It is in no way unified, but the desire / demand for '+1 marines' is fairly longstanding and 'how long until we get fabius bile primaris' was pretty much day one.

I'm not too keen on the idea of Chaos Primaris, but I can see a special unit of bigger chaos dudes who can be fielded with Fabulous Bill - as a one off.

I'd say that they're unnecessary given the recent release of the fantastic new Chaos marine kit, and the fact the Chaos already have access to 'super marine' units in the form of Rubics, Khorne Beserkers, Noise Marines and Plague Marines.

As much as I dislike primaris, they could be a blessing in disguise. Let all the manlets that defy Cawl and friends join the dark side and bring over all their toys
Embrace that dark age tech and split us into traitor marines and legions of old.

 catbarf wrote:

Arbitrator wrote:I think things like the Greater Possessed are a good example of what they might do. CSM Unit + Warp Juice = Totally-Not-Primaris.

In addition to Greater Possessed, I think we're already there with the Cult Marines. Plague Marines and Rubrics have comparable cost and resilience to Primaris, albeit with Plague Marines lagging behind on offensive firepower. The formula seems to be Tacticals = CSM, and then Primaris = warp-infused CSM of whichever flavor.

Unfortunately that leaves Chosen in a weird spot as basically CSM with more guns. I'd like to see them played up as equals to Primaris, using their millennia of experience and Darwinian attrition to make up for inferior biology.

Yeah, if my cult marines could be the equivalent of primaris that'd be great, because last time I played them against primaris, the Primaris marines had two wounds, and actually had better bolters than my "warp bolters" because they were 30" range S4 AP-2 in the second turn.

Give cult marines W2 A2 and then maybe they're the chaos equivalent of primaris.

.

Primaris trivialize Marines as a whole. The entire setting, the HH, the last 10,000 years of struggle and war between Marines and everything they stand for has been cheapened by this random implementation of a new, better marine that came literally out of no where. There are no stakes when you can just build something new and better every time you start losing. It's just poor storytelling and flies in the face of established lore of the galaxy being stagnant and decaying. I didn't sign up for 40K for hope, and futuristic space soldiers. I signed up for knights in space, death, religious zealotry, nihilism, pain, daemons, doom, destruction, magic. Sacrificing what 40K is at its core just to sell some more toys cheapens its identity and ultimately will ruin what was original and great about it.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, if my cult marines could be the equivalent of primaris that'd be great, because last time I played them against primaris, the Primaris marines had two wounds, and actually had better bolters than my "warp bolters" because they were 30" range S4 AP-2 in the second turn.

Give cult marines W2 A2 and then maybe they're the chaos equivalent of primaris.

It would follow, logically, that Cult Marines, Possessed and maybe Chosen are the Chaos Primaris equivalents.

Here's the thing about the mechanics: I do so much optimization just to fight Primaris. Daemon Primarch lists, gunlines, flyers, whirlwind scorpius', Chaos Knights, etc. Without the common range / AP mechanic, it becomes really hard to just run a TAAC list. I have my lists for fighting PEQ and other ones for fighting everything else.

Do we really want a situation where Chaos units operate on a unique set of mechanics that make other armies have to optimize just to fight them? Like, would we want Rubrics with a 30" range, would we want 2W Plague Marines, would we want Berzerkers that could charge 24"?

While all those things might sound good, it's not a simple answer. At least for me, the game isn't as fun having to bring a different army to each game.

It's amazing how people seem to forget that Marines trivialized the existence of Thunder Warriors.

Read some lore.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Primaris Marines undermine 40k as a brand. The Grimdark, the psycho-religious elements, the sense every faction is bad and hope is the natural state of the universe. They are hope delivered, a deux ex machina that should not exist.

Sacrificing what 40K is at its core just to sell some more toys

Just wanna jump in here and note that, while I don't really like primaris marines, 40k's core is literally and has always been "whatever we can make up that sells more toys."

They're a toy company.

It's amazing how people seem to forget that Marines trivialized the existence of Thunder Warriors.

Read some lore.

I have, and it's one thing to trivialize Thunder Warriors (who's existence was trivial to begin with), and trivializing space marines, you know, the main focus of the story for the past 3 decades? The entire universe is essentially built off of these guys, it's not some minor detail being changed here.

Not to mention the whole purpose of the Thunder Warriors in the story was to show how superior Space Marines are anyway. You can't constantly use oneupmanship as a way of making things even cooler, then you run into a Dragon Ball Z story arc.

Just wanna jump in here and note that, while I don't really like primaris marines, 40k's core is literally and has always been "whatever we can make up that sells more toys."

They're a toy company.

Yeah, I get that. And you can sell toys within the context of an established universe without selling out what makes it unique.

If I listen to a Prog Metal band and they decide to release an EDM record to sell more albums it kinda defeats the purpose of listening to that band in the first place because it's not what I asked for when I decided to listen to Prog.

I don't have much of a stake in this, but I quite like the idea of Chaos remaining as is.

I mean, sure, I suppose you can expect that some Primaris might fall to the Ruinous Powers, but the nice thing about Chaos is that just by being itself, I'm sure it can come up with something just as big, just as nasty and far more imaginative than Primaris.

My stance on Primaris as-is is really 'don't have anything against them, but if I were to start a SM army, I would seriously consider making a fluffy, non-Primaris army.'

 techsoldaten wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, if my cult marines could be the equivalent of primaris that'd be great, because last time I played them against primaris, the Primaris marines had two wounds, and actually had better bolters than my "warp bolters" because they were 30" range S4 AP-2 in the second turn.

Give cult marines W2 A2 and then maybe they're the chaos equivalent of primaris.

It would follow, logically, that Cult Marines, Possessed and maybe Chosen are the Chaos Primaris equivalents.

Here's the thing about the mechanics: I do so much optimization just to fight Primaris. Daemon Primarch lists, gunlines, flyers, whirlwind scorpius', Chaos Knights, etc. Without the common range / AP mechanic, it becomes really hard to just run a TAAC list. I have my lists for fighting PEQ and other ones for fighting everything else.

Do we really want a situation where Chaos units operate on a unique set of mechanics that make other armies have to optimize just to fight them? Like, would we want Rubrics with a 30" range, would we want 2W Plague Marines, would we want Berzerkers that could charge 24"?

While all those things might sound good, it's not a simple answer. At least for me, the game isn't as fun having to bring a different army to each game.

I mean, if you asked me a whole bunch of elite infantry would get more elite and more points expensive across the board. Marines would end up with W2 A2 across the board, I'd make the only difference between primaris and standard marines their weapon loadouts, and everything from aspect warriors to nobz to immortals would get a hefty stat boost and a hefty points increase, with the major emphasis being on durability.

So when I say I'd like to see cult marines at W2 A2, understand I'd like to see a LOT of stuff bumped up in terms of elite-ness. We've reached this comical point in the game where you've got actual hordes of stuff like Tau Firewarriors and Kabalite Warriors and everyone's scooping buckets of miniatures off the table with every shooting phase. Primaris' durability and numbers is about where I think space marines ought to be, it's their absurd levels of firepower with one of their TEQs pumping out fething 18 shots and space marines rapid firing 2 30" S4 AP-2 shots with super easy access to reroll hit and wound auras that is the problem (at least, gamewise).

"Here's my squad of 15 unstoppable, implacable, newly awakened necron warriors, advancing from the tomb world of-"

"Cool my 10-man intercessor squad 30" away in the middle of my gunball is gonna use a stratagem making their guns rapid fire two. I reroll hits for my 70pt chapter master, wounds of 1 for my lieutenant, aaaand make 19 saves. At a 5+."

"Yeah, they're dead."

techsoldaten wrote:
Primaris Marines undermine 40k as a brand. The Grimdark, the psycho-religious elements, the sense every faction is bad and hope is the natural state of the universe. They are hope delivered, a deux ex machina that should not exist.

I strongly disagree. The grimdark is still there. those religios elements are still there (even if primaris themselves aren't it, they can arguably represent a lightning rod for every reactionary element in the 'verse. In my opinion, Sometimes a bit of contrast does more to show up an element than any amount of 'more of the same'. Every faction is still pretty monstrous when you do any bit of digging. Hope is an illusion.

And to be fair, as someone who has played since third ed, and who is familiar with second/rt, the grimdark back then was turned up to 11, and sometimes could be too much, any element of the grimdark lessening and the rise of hero-focus has been a thing since fifth edition for the most part. You cant really accuse primaris of introducing this. It's nothing more than how the optics have shifted since we were kids in the 90s or earlier.

Furthermore, and for what it's worth, these exact things were said about my first army. Tau. And I go to lot of stick from other players for who I played and why.

techsoldaten wrote:
Maybe it would be more accurate to say no true fan of old-school 40k wants Primaris Marines. The sculpts don't appeal to me, but it's so much more. You can't really think about 40k the same with them in the game.

'No true scotsman'.

I a man a fan of old school 40k (I treasure my old second ed and rt stuff I've picked up over the years) and frankly, I wish Primaris were the marines I could have had half a lifetime ago.

techsoldaten wrote:
To address the original question, does Chaos want Primaris? Probably not. The people attracted to Chaos would rather not cheapen the lore. It might be nice to have guns and tanks that are not outclassed by the latest Imperial toys, but that's it.

They don't cheapen the lore, at least to me. To be fair, Matt ward and fifth ed silliness of mcmurderwolf, kaldor draigo and bloodhound did a far better job of cheapening the lore into a Saturday morning cartoon.

But I do agree with you. Chaos don't need primaris. That would just be lazy more than anything if you ask me. I think there has been years too much of 'loyalist stuff with spikes' for chaos. Personally I'd like to see more nightmarish tech, more sinister, weird, twisted creations and enslaved daemon things. Basically, explore the cult of the dark mechanicus and the weird spiderdaemon things they produce.

techsoldaten wrote:
You responded to my post about attitudes about Primaris, how they're kind of unique in how players feel the need to attack each other. Sure, players have always argued over other stuff that's new, but criticism has always been directed towards GW - where it belongs. If people were criticizing each other over other releases, it certainly wasn't widespread. Conversations about Primaris seem different, the accusations and name calling are not something I've noticed with other factions.

Maybe you see it more in primaris related discussions because you are seemingly invested in one side of it? For what it's worth, I've seen players attach each other for liking stuff, or not liking stuff, or playing a certain way or not since I got into this hobby. I got every side of it back in the day when tau were new and how people like me were 'cheapening the hobby'. Or the attacks that seemingly our likes, and our tastes had less worth than the rest of it and we really had no business in the hobby. Or even at the extreme ends, How every tau player back then could go die in a fire. it's no different now. It's nothing more than the other side of the coin to 'blame gw'.

And for what it's worth, I have no issues with you disliking primaris. I think they're fantastic. You don't have to buy them, ever. Or like them. But please, at least respect the fact that other people, including some old schoolers do like them, and frankly, feel less welcome in this hobby when you leave what you've written above out there. If anything cheapens the hobby, it's that. We are all better than that.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

It's amazing how people seem to forget that Marines trivialized the existence of Thunder Warriors.

Read some lore.

I have, and it's one thing to trivialize Thunder Warriors (who's existence was trivial to begin with), and trivializing space marines, you know, the main focus of the story for the past 3 decades? The entire universe is essentially built off of these guys, it's not some minor detail being changed here.

I think the popularity of the Thunder Warriors in the background may explain the attempt to replicate the same situation with the Primaris, however GW whiffed the execution as the Space Marines have just just meekly accepted the Primaris.
I believe Seth is the only chapter master to refuse them?

We could have had Gulliman awaken to find that Marines had degraded to a mere shadow of what they were in his time. He blames them for the state of the Imperium and judges them unworthy. The Primaris are then imposed upon on the galaxy, slaughtering and replacing chapters wholesale. Chapters scramble to organise against this new threat only to be ambushed and betrayed. Have them rage against the injustice of defending humanity for a millennia only to to be scorned by one of their greatest heroes.
Just do something to give the Space Marine a proper send off, they've carried the Warhammer brand for so long they deserve it!

the_scotsman wrote:


I mean, if you asked me a whole bunch of elite infantry would get more elite and more points expensive across the board. Marines would end up with W2 A2 across the board, I'd make the only difference between primaris and standard marines their weapon loadouts, and everything from aspect warriors to nobz to immortals would get a hefty stat boost and a hefty points increase, with the major emphasis being on durability.

So when I say I'd like to see cult marines at W2 A2, understand I'd like to see a LOT of stuff bumped up in terms of elite-ness. We've reached this comical point in the game where you've got actual hordes of stuff like Tau Firewarriors and Kabalite Warriors and everyone's scooping buckets of miniatures off the table with every shooting phase. Primaris' durability and numbers is about where I think space marines ought to be, it's their absurd levels of firepower with one of their TEQs pumping out fething 18 shots and space marines rapid firing 2 30" S4 AP-2 shots with super easy access to reroll hit and wound auras that is the problem (at least, gamewise).

"Here's my squad of 15 unstoppable, implacable, newly awakened necron warriors, advancing from the tomb world of-"

"Cool my 10-man intercessor squad 30" away in the middle of my gunball is gonna use a stratagem making their guns rapid fire two. I reroll hits for my 70pt chapter master, wounds of 1 for my lieutenant, aaaand make 19 saves. At a 5+."

"Yeah, they're dead."

Got it and agree. 40k has to seem like a competition with an uncertain outcome in every game to be interesting. Anything else is not worth the effort.

My first fights against NuMarine armies involved triple Repulsor lists and massed Intercessors, they just created these no-mans-lands in the middle of the board. Drove me crazy, spent a lot of time talking through how to smash PEQ on another board.

Feels like we're getting into gauge theory with questions about where to set the power level / points relative to everything else. I'm at the point where I just don't want to be the Primaris player in your example, and I also don't want to be constantly experimenting with how to beat that player.

Fundamentally, I believe there should be some standard for line troops, heavy infantry, tanks, etc that skews a little for each faction. They should have some common mechanics in terms of wounds, strength and range that accounts for the differences, and it should be imperfect because nothing ever is.

With Primaris, I think we're seeing an example of people messing with that balance too much. It would be fine if we started screwing with the Chaos units, I just don't want to see us become Primaris 2.0. Alpha Legion Possessed Bombs are approaching that, doesn't sit well with me.

 Kroem wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

It's amazing how people seem to forget that Marines trivialized the existence of Thunder Warriors.

Read some lore.

I have, and it's one thing to trivialize Thunder Warriors (who's existence was trivial to begin with), and trivializing space marines, you know, the main focus of the story for the past 3 decades? The entire universe is essentially built off of these guys, it's not some minor detail being changed here.

I think the popularity of the Thunder Warriors in the background may explain the attempt to replicate the same situation with the Primaris, however GW whiffed the execution as the Space Marines have just just meekly accepted the Primaris.
I believe Seth is the only chapter master to refuse them?

Where did you read that Marines have "just meekly accepted the Primaris"? We know there are Chapters that aren't accepting them. They didn't give specific names, but they left that open so that players don't need to use them if they don't want to.

We just had all this nonsense about Dark Angels where everyone was making a huge deal about Lazarus being Primaris and how it "broke the lore" or whatever that the Dark Angels weren't trusting the Primaris. Lazarus is one of the Ascended, thus he's trustworthy in their eyes.

One of the simplest issues that people need to build a bridge and get over at this point is that we're no longer seeing Cawl's "Awoken"(see C: Space Marines. I've explained this concept so many times now that I will not be bothered to continue doing so. You want to know the differences? Find out yourself) being spread out amongst the Chapters(which is what Gabriel Seth was in opposition to). They're now fully integrated within Chapters, either coming up via Ascension or the standard route of Initiate->Marine.

Deadnight wrote:

techsoldaten wrote:
Primaris Marines undermine 40k as a brand. The Grimdark, the psycho-religious elements, the sense every faction is bad and hope is the natural state of the universe. They are hope delivered, a deux ex machina that should not exist.

I strongly disagree. The grimdark is still there. those religios elements are still there (even if primaris themselves aren't it, they can arguably represent a lightning rod for every reactionary element in the 'verse. In my opinion, Sometimes a bit of contrast does more to show up an element than any amount of 'more of the same'. Every faction is still pretty monstrous when you do any bit of digging. Hope is an illusion.

Yeah, I never said these elements were gone. It's just that Primaris don't fit in that.

There have been a lot of savior narratives in 40k lore the last few years, someone swooping in to prevent a catastrophe. Feels like that's going against brand.

Deadnight wrote:

And to be fair, as someone who has played since third ed, and who is familiar with second/rt, the grimdark back then was turned up to 11, and sometimes could be too much, any element of the grimdark lessening and the rise of hero-focus has been a thing since fifth edition for the most part. You cant really accuse primaris of introducing this. It's nothing more than how the optics have shifted since we were kids in the 90s or earlier.

Furthermore, and for what it's worth, these exact things were said about my first army. Tau. And I go to lot of stick from other players for who I played and why.

We've been in the hobby a similar amount of time. Yeah, I can think of some examples where the grimdark was played up too much.

The idea that there's this secret stash of heresy-era warriors who have been further enhanced and brought out to save the Imperium doesn't fit for me. It's kind of the opposite of the grimdark, raises the question of what other magical secret solutions are floating around out there? Just works against the sense of eternal war, an endless stalemate.

I think other people who share this opinion. Understand what I'm saying: I don't like it and think it takes something away. You may feel very differently, that's okay.

Deadnight wrote:

techsoldaten wrote:
Maybe it would be more accurate to say no true fan of old-school 40k wants Primaris Marines. The sculpts don't appeal to me, but it's so much more. You can't really think about 40k the same with them in the game.

'No true scotsman'.

I a man a fan of old school 40k (I treasure my old second ed and rt stuff I've picked up over the years) and frankly, I wish Primaris were the marines I could have had half a lifetime ago.

Yeah, I'm leaving a lot of room for other people to have other opinions. Thanks for sharing yours.

Now - help me understand your thoughts on whether Chaos needs Primaris.

Deadnight wrote:

techsoldaten wrote:
To address the original question, does Chaos want Primaris? Probably not. The people attracted to Chaos would rather not cheapen the lore. It might be nice to have guns and tanks that are not outclassed by the latest Imperial toys, but that's it.

They don't cheapen the lore, at least to me. To be fair, Matt ward and fifth ed silliness of mcmurderwolf, kaldor draigo and bloodhound did a far better job of cheapening the lore into a Saturday morning cartoon.

But I do agree with you. Chaos don't need primaris. That would just be lazy more than anything if you ask me. I think there has been years too much of 'loyalist stuff with spikes' for chaos. Personally I'd like to see more nightmarish tech, more sinister, weird, twisted creations and enslaved daemon things. Basically, explore the cult of the dark mechanicus and the weird spiderdaemon things they produce.

And there we go.

Yeah, I don't want to see the Black Legion suddenly reveal this army of super-super-warriors that come spilling out of nowhere to save Chaos. That's what I mean when I say cheap, as in not worthy of what came before it. Sub-Matt-Ward level of writing.

Dark Mechanicus, new Possessed, better Infantry - all this would be welcome. Just so saviors please.

Deadnight wrote:

techsoldaten wrote:
You responded to my post about attitudes about Primaris, how they're kind of unique in how players feel the need to attack each other. Sure, players have always argued over other stuff that's new, but criticism has always been directed towards GW - where it belongs. If people were criticizing each other over other releases, it certainly wasn't widespread. Conversations about Primaris seem different, the accusations and name calling are not something I've noticed with other factions.

Maybe you see it more in primaris related discussions because you are seemingly invested in one side of it? For what it's worth, I've seen players attach each other for liking stuff, or not liking stuff, or playing a certain way or not since I got into this hobby. I got every side of it back in the day when tau were new and how people like me were 'cheapening the hobby'. Or the attacks that seemingly our likes, and our tastes had less worth than the rest of it and we really had no business in the hobby. Or even at the extreme ends, How every tau player back then could go die in a fire. it's no different now. It's nothing more than the other side of the coin to 'blame gw'.

And for what it's worth, I have no issues with you disliking primaris. I think they're fantastic. You don't have to buy them, ever. Or like them. But please, at least respect the fact that other people, including some old schoolers do like them, and frankly, feel less welcome in this hobby when you leave what you've written above out there. If anything cheapens the hobby, it's that. We are all better than that.

Great thoughts and certainly worth considering.

I've never seen discord in the community like what we've seen with Primaris and do not believe most people have. It's interesting that you can cite examples of your experiences with Tau, my observation is that the Primaris bs is so widespread and full of undeserved personal attacks, it's truly novel for plastic army men enthusiasts to be doing this to each other.

Again, that's not everyone, certainly not you. But I don't think I'm missing anything or too involved in one side or another. There's something different about this.

There's a reason why it might seem that way and it's because one side continually insists upon not actually bothering to read even a cursory bit on the subject. They insist upon vomiting up whatever trash they read on Reddit or 1d4Chan to try to crap all over everyone else.

The Awoken(the 'secret stash of heresy-era warriors' you mentioned) are done, lorewise. They're the ones who were trained and conditioned for one role and one role only. There was a finite number of them. That's what we initially saw added in with the Primaris, and they've moved on since then to the Ascended and the Primaris coming up via the standard Initiate->Marine route.

 Kanluwen wrote:
There's a reason why 'bs is so widespread' and it's because one side continually insists upon not actually bothering to read even a cursory amount of lore on the subject.

The Awoken(the 'secret stash of heresy-era warriors' you mentioned) are done, lorewise. They're the ones who were trained and conditioned for one role and one role only. That's what we initially saw added in with the Primaris, and they've moved on since then to the Ascended and the Primaris coming up via the standard Initiate->Marine route.

You are mistaking "not liking that" for "not reading that."

It's a matter of taste. I'd rather it not be part of the lore and certainly kept far away from Chaos.

Some lore is complete gak. Generally depends on the reader.

No, I'm absolutely 100% not mistaking "not liking that" for "not reading that".

It's been a problem in the background forums for a long time. It's been a problem in discussion about Primaris, period. People go to 1d4chan or Reddit for whatever stupid reason to get their lore, rather than actually reading a damn book.

It's okay for you to say "I didn't know that existed!" instead of pretending that "Well I just didn't like that lore!", by the way. The Awoken are finished, move on and find a new scapegoat reason to whine about Primaris.

 Kanluwen wrote:
No, I'm absolutely 100% not mistaking "not liking that" for "not reading that".

It's been a problem in the background forums for a long time. It's been a problem in discussion about Primaris since the Vanguard got introduced as well.

You didn't say "that lore is complete gak" though. You just flatout picked one aspect and chose to focus upon it whilst ignoring the rest.

Whatever it is about Primaris Marines that brings out this sort of sentiment, please never let it reach Chaos.

Just so I understand: you were expecting me to deliver a complete critique of all 40k lore? Or you feel my opinion is illegitimate because it focuses on a single aspect of Primaris?

MOD EDIT - DO NOT QUOTE ENTIRE SLABS OF TEXT AND REPLY WITH A SINGLE LINE OF TEXT, THANKS
Swooping in and saving the day for others is the whole Space Marine stick, so that’s totally fitting. Chaos is also essentially winning, so they don’t need to roll out a super weapon.

I think it would be cool to have a Box of a ragtag squad of renegade Marines. There would be two or 3 Primaris in it, a Centurion, the rest recently turned loyalist Marines. They have Grav guns as an option as well as heavy flamers and Plasma cannons. With that single Box GW could solve a whole bunch of plot holes that have existed since... 4th edition I guess when they brought in Renegade Marines.
In true GW fashion they could release a Codex alongside the Box called Renegade Astartes or something similar. And give them an impulsor with spikes as a Transport.

Closer to the topic at hand... I don't need Primaris Marines for my CSM. But if I ever collected Primaris Marines it would be a force completely made of Phobos Marines and painted as Alpha Legion with some cool alternate helmets.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
No, I'm absolutely 100% not mistaking "not liking that" for "not reading that".

It's been a problem in the background forums for a long time. It's been a problem in discussion about Primaris since the Vanguard got introduced as well.

You didn't say "that lore is complete gak" though. You just flatout picked one aspect and chose to focus upon it whilst ignoring the rest.

Whatever it is about Primaris Marines that brings out this sort of sentiment, please never let it reach Chaos.

LOL, it's been in Chaos since the 3.5 book. Where the hell have you been?

Just so I understand: you were expecting me to deliver a complete critique of all 40k lore? Or you feel my opinion is illegitimate because it focuses on a single aspect of Primaris?

Need some hay for that strawman you're building?

It's not hard to understand what I've stated. You've shown, repeatedly in this very thread, that you haven't actually read up on what the deal is with the Primaris. You've parroted talking points that are common to the Reddit/1d4Chan "Lore Experts"--or the folks who just watch crappy "reviews" on Youtube. It all deals with the lore that was immediately available at the Primaris drop, where Primaris were "Awoken" rather than "Ascended" or "Indoctrinated".

the_scotsman wrote:

Spoiler:

 techsoldaten wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, if my cult marines could be the equivalent of primaris that'd be great, because last time I played them against primaris, the Primaris marines had two wounds, and actually had better bolters than my "warp bolters" because they were 30" range S4 AP-2 in the second turn.

Give cult marines W2 A2 and then maybe they're the chaos equivalent of primaris.

It would follow, logically, that Cult Marines, Possessed and maybe Chosen are the Chaos Primaris equivalents.

Here's the thing about the mechanics: I do so much optimization just to fight Primaris. Daemon Primarch lists, gunlines, flyers, whirlwind scorpius', Chaos Knights, etc. Without the common range / AP mechanic, it becomes really hard to just run a TAAC list. I have my lists for fighting PEQ and other ones for fighting everything else.

Do we really want a situation where Chaos units operate on a unique set of mechanics that make other armies have to optimize just to fight them? Like, would we want Rubrics with a 30" range, would we want 2W Plague Marines, would we want Berzerkers that could charge 24"?

While all those things might sound good, it's not a simple answer. At least for me, the game isn't as fun having to bring a different army to each game.

I mean, if you asked me a whole bunch of elite infantry would get more elite and more points expensive across the board. Marines would end up with W2 A2 across the board, I'd make the only difference between primaris and standard marines their weapon loadouts, and everything from aspect warriors to nobz to immortals would get a hefty stat boost and a hefty points increase, with the major emphasis being on durability.

So when I say I'd like to see cult marines at W2 A2, understand I'd like to see a LOT of stuff bumped up in terms of elite-ness. We've reached this comical point in the game where you've got actual hordes of stuff like Tau Firewarriors and Kabalite Warriors and everyone's scooping buckets of miniatures off the table with every shooting phase. Primaris' durability and numbers is about where I think space marines ought to be, it's their absurd levels of firepower with one of their TEQs pumping out fething 18 shots and space marines rapid firing 2 30" S4 AP-2 shots with super easy access to reroll hit and wound auras that is the problem (at least, gamewise).

"Here's my squad of 15 unstoppable, implacable, newly awakened necron warriors, advancing from the tomb world of-"

"Cool my 10-man intercessor squad 30" away in the middle of my gunball is gonna use a stratagem making their guns rapid fire two. I reroll hits for my 70pt chapter master, wounds of 1 for my lieutenant, aaaand make 19 saves. At a 5+."

"Yeah, they're dead."

This. Elite infantry need a boost for all factions, so they don't feel like chaff compared to primaris. For chaos that means going to two wounds for cult troops and chosen, along with making chosen a troops choice for the non cult legions. Terminators, both chaos and loyalists should be three wounds. All this would require new points costs of course. The problem is that 8th edition changed the ap and cover system but didn't change any stats, only primaris have stats that actually feel "elite" under the new rules.

As for primaris chaos marines? No. It's lazy and unimaginative. Plus it wouldn't make sense. Without the massive influx provided by the "awoken" primaris I don't see any way chaos could get them in large enough numbers to be remotely commonplace in the current timeline.