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 Ouze wrote:
I am not a fan of the Primaris look and didn't buy any, so wouldn't likely get any Primaris CSM either if they were similar aesthetically. I'd really have to see the models.

That being said, out of all the factions that could do this upsizing, Chaos is the second easiest, lore wise, right? "Warp be crazy how it do that".

Can you even imagine the merging of those two flanderizations?

New tactical PrimEVIL SPIKEfiltrators have their boltguns outfitted with heretical SPIKESCOPES and tactical MURDERscanners!

Just give the cult marines 2 wounds. Probably wont happen though as that would mean no new models the can force us to buy.

the_scotsman wrote:

Can you even imagine the merging of those two flanderizations?

New tactical PrimEVIL SPIKEfiltrators have their boltguns outfitted with heretical SPIKESCOPES and tactical MURDERscanners!

STOP READING MY NOTEBOOK!

The Salt Mine wrote:Just give the cult marines 2 wounds. Probably wont happen though as that would mean no new models the can force us to buy.

Truthfully, it probably won't happen until Tactical Marines get 2 wounds each.

Which is something quite a few people have been arguing for some time about.

 Jidmah wrote:
An interesting twist would be allowing primaris for renegades only, but not for legions.

And it would make perfect sense lore wise. With the only example we've seen of 'renegade' primaris, they weren't trying to join chaos, they were fighting against Custodes for survival. So I doubt that any renegade primaris would join the legions, as they'd probably just be escaping the imperium.

Why not? Chaos has much to offer to Primaris marines. Very much so indeed... As Chaos is just state of mind, putting yourself first over the others, it is impossible to keep Chaos away. Astartes are only resilient to Chaos, because they lack souls and personalities rich enough for Chaos to find a purchase. As Space Marine lives, he grows old and becomes weak. This weakness is manifested in his developing personality. Then Astartes becomes truly self aware individual and thus have a greater need for self expression and peace in its soul. Lack of those things often leads to heresy or in other words, independent thoughts. Avitus is a good example of how growing personality and one self leads to heresy.

I think it'd also be intereting to see a new traitor legion of JUST Primaris. A bunch get the collective reason to say "man this gaks fethed" and feth off.

Rahdok wrote:
I think it'd also be intereting to see a new traitor legion of JUST Primaris. A bunch get the collective reason to say "man this gaks fethed" and feth off.

A single chapter of primaris going renegade doesn't constitute a legion. Legions are much larger. But it should be possible to create your own renegade chapter with the loyalist codex using the custom traits.

Not even Cawl can create a new legion :p

Red Corsairs, The Purge, Brazen Beasts and the like are called "Renegade Chapters" for a reason. The only thing that's mind-baffling that there is no "create your own renegade chapter" for available for reasons unknown.

 Conservative Heretic wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
An interesting twist would be allowing primaris for renegades only, but not for legions.

And it would make perfect sense lore wise. With the only example we've seen of 'renegade' primaris, they weren't trying to join chaos, they were fighting against Custodes for survival. So I doubt that any renegade primaris would join the legions, as they'd probably just be escaping the imperium.

Wouldn't this just be best represented by just using the Space marine list and just referencing them as renegades? I mean going renegade wouldn't provide any kinda boost or change in units really as they would still probably use tactics used by the imperium.

On the note of Chaos Primaris, I think that a neutral choice to use would be the marines made by Hon Sou by the Daemonculaba. I'm pretty sure that these marines were often referenced to be bigger and stronger, so they could be a neutral 2W chaos primaris equivalent outside of potentially cult marines.

Yeah, it's goofy that you can't take a space marine detachment and just give them the <Renegades> keyword.

Change IMPERIUM and ADEPTUS ASTARTES to CHAOS and HERETIC ASTARTES and you've got a simiar system to what GSC get with their Guard detachments.

The factions have diverged more and more over the years. Chaos used to literally be spikey Marines. Now they are filled with unique units and vehicles.

They should not receive Chaos Primaris and continue to be further distinguished as a faction.

 Ishagu wrote:
The factions have diverged more and more over the years. Chaos used to literally be spikey Marines. Now they are filled with unique units and vehicles.

They should not receive Chaos Primaris and continue to be further distinguished as a faction.

Yeah, nothing screams "heroic struggle against the odds" like the heroes being a foot taller than the villains and being able to wipe the floor with them thanks to 7 overlapping army-wide rules.

Face it, chaos space marines are "distinguished" from normal marines by being 10x worse at doing the same gak.

And by having weird dinobots. But mostly the first thing. So I suppose this is just nothing more than a return to historic norm.

Instead of this, redo the possessed. Allow them to have individual corrupted weapons that they can choose from that are unique to them (venomous tentacles, crushing claws, ripping fangs, chain weapons that grow from their body, etc.). Allow them to have their own shooting weapons as well, such as possessed shells with better AP, toxic and acid spit, shooting fire (like what is actually seen on one of the models), and other stuff. Allow some to use their wings as jump packs, or have some run on all fours. Upgrade the rules for the Mutilators. Maybe even have a unique possessed Chaos lord model.

 Ishagu wrote:
The factions have diverged more and more over the years. Chaos used to literally be spikey Marines. Now they are filled with unique units and vehicles.

They should not receive Chaos Primaris and continue to be further distinguished as a faction.

While I'm certainly not looking for Chaos Primaris, most CSM's still basically are Spiky marines. There are a couple Flanderized subfactions with some unique stuff, but looking at say, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Red Corsairs, or Night Lords, aside from having access to Dinobots, they're mostly just far more limited and watered down versions of the basic SM list with some "spiky" options or weapons swaps thrown in and broadly equivalent mirror units.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
The factions have diverged more and more over the years. Chaos used to literally be spikey Marines. Now they are filled with unique units and vehicles.

They should not receive Chaos Primaris and continue to be further distinguished as a faction.

Yeah, nothing screams "heroic struggle against the odds" like the heroes being a foot taller than the villains and being able to wipe the floor with them thanks to 7 overlapping army-wide rules.

This is the greatest Primaris sin.

Not a chaos player.

But i would imagine everybody wants primaris level of power for their troops lol.

As SM are the most popular first army I think GW want you to get more bang for your buck and points.

I’m happy with CSM having the old marine stat lines, It’s a better story

 Argive wrote:
Not a chaos player.

But i would imagine everybody wants primaris level of power for their troops lol.

It's more like everyone wants a way out of the dead end that tactical marine statline has proven to be.

Elite infantry with one wound just doesn't seem to work.

Plague Marines and Thousand Sons are good PA troops.

Also Chaos are evolving into a pretty different faction in terms of play. The loyalist Primaris really are a low model, elite army. You can run the Chaos marines as a horde faction of Cultists supported by elite infantry units like Oblits and powerful characters.

 Ishagu wrote:
Plague Marines and Thousand Sons are good PA troops.

Also Chaos are evolving into a pretty different faction in terms of play. The loyalist Primaris really are a low model, elite army. You can run the Chaos marines as a horde faction of Cultists supported by elite infantry units like Oblits and powerful characters.

plague marines good?
heck you don't see plague marines in the better non DG variants how the heck can you think PM are good?

As for thousand sons, you meant to say like with all chaos factions seemingly overpriced until you use the absurd ammount off CP you need to make them actually work anb basically play gotcha

Calm down, Mr Negative Nancy.

Sounds like you won't be happy unless Chaos are the most powerful faction in every measure?
Sure, Raven Guard and Iron Hands are very powerful but there are plenty of Chaos Lists that can compete with all of the other chapters with no problem.

You want the factions to be mirrors of each other, with units that play exactly the same? That's the worst possible outcome.

You don't see me asking for loyalist Oblits for my Ultramarines!

 Ishagu wrote:
Calm down, Mr Negative Nancy.

Sounds like you won't be happy unless Chaos are the most powerful faction in every measure?

I'd like to know where i said something like that

Sure, Raven Guard and Iron Hands are very powerful but there are plenty of Chaos Lists that can compete with all of the other chapters with no problem.

Theres a difference between troop choices that work and troop choices that don't. Expecting a unit to fullfill it's job regardless off faction has nothing to do with subfactions.

You want the factions to be mirrors of each other, with units that play exactly the same? That's the worst possible outcome.

Lad, go back through this very thread, the only thing i want is a troop choice that works without the need to be recycled atleast once per turn and still lose shootouts with most infanty, and my personal opinion on primaris is that they are indeed something that should never ever happen to spill over to CSM, but you are more interested in pulling a strawman up.

You don't see me asking for loyalist Oblits for my Ultramarines!

Strawman is strawman.

Face it you made a claim about a faction / unit that you got no idea about and got an answer which you dislike.

Aren't loyalist obliterators, just centurions?

Karol wrote:
Aren't loyalist obliterators, just centurions?

If they could teleport in and shoot twice then yes.

Unfortunately Centurions are only strong in chapters that can manipulate movement. They are poor in an Ultramarine army, as an example.

You know what I would like? For loyalist Terminators to have access to combi weapons, and for loyalists to be able to run auxiliary human troops, and for them not to lose special rules when they ally with other factions. Chaos has all those advantages. It's what makes the factions different.

 Ishagu wrote:

Karol wrote:
Aren't loyalist obliterators, just centurions?

If they could teleport in and shoot twice then yes.

Unfortunately Centurions are only strong in chapters that can manipulate movement. They are poor in an Ultramarine army, as an example.

You know what I would like? For loyalist Terminators to have access to combi weapons, and for loyalists to be able to run auxiliary human troops, and for them not to lose special rules when they ally with other factions. Chaos has all those advantages. It's what makes the factions different.

Csm stands for Chaos Space Marines, not Cultists (with) Some Marines. Many csm players don't want to play cultists, we want our actual marines to be good, effective troops. And we want to run actual legions, not a hodgepodge of legions with other allies. That requires good strong legion traits that define the legions. Not running soup.

And all those "competitive" lists you're talking about require stacking combos. Sorry, but if I wanted to play mtg that's what I'd do. And I don't. Csm, and all factions, need good units that don't require strategems and cp to function properly.

And before you strawman me as "you just want what loyalist marines have", I dare you to find anywhere were I ever mentioned wanting primaris chaos marines. I think you'll find I consistently don't want that and argue against it.

Don't tell csm players what we want or need.

No I understand it pretty well. You and others want more power in their book. Nothing new or original there.

This topic is asking if people want Chaos Primaris. It wasn't talking about their power on the tabletop, so perhaps think about that? My initial statement was that I want the factions to be more distinct from each other, and for that reason I never want to see spikey Primaris.

 Ishagu wrote:
No I understand it pretty well. You and others want more power in their book. Nothing new or original there.

This topic is asking if people want Chaos Primaris. It wasn't talking about their power on the tabletop, so perhaps think about that? My initial statement was that I want the factions to be more distinct from each other, and for that reason I never want to see spikey Primaris.

and you answered to this statement :

It's more like everyone wants a way out of the dead end that tactical marine statline has proven to be.

Elite infantry with one wound just doesn't seem to work.

with your "great " response that misses what CSM are supposed to be and what actually is a decent unit:

Plague Marines and Thousand Sons are good PA troops.

Also Chaos are evolving into a pretty different faction in terms of play. The loyalist Primaris really are a low model, elite army. You can run the Chaos marines as a horde faction of Cultists supported by elite infantry units like Oblits and powerful characters.

you yourself turned this into a balance question.

Elite infantry with 1 wound works pretty well with Sisters of Battle.

Do you have much experience with that army? They aren't top-tier-crush-everything but they play very well.
That's a great looking and great playing army.

So the humble chaos marine isn't the most powerful Troop unit in the game? That's fair. Chaos Terminators and Oblits are great however, what's wrong with them?

 Ishagu wrote:
Elite infantry with 1 wound works pretty well with Sisters of Battle.

Pts cost and ability due to AOF and Traits vs Traits.

Do you have much experience with that army? They aren't top-tier-crush-everything but they play very well.
That's a great looking and great playing army.

The Statement was the marine baseline , sisters don't fall in that dead end and are therefore comparatively cheaper. Avoiding it it entirely. CSM and tacticals don't which is incidentally why you don't see them. Allbeit Tacticals are workable what with doctrines nowadays whilest CSM need to rely on gimicks and or gotcha combos, which will be better put on other units that have the "sky is the limit for buffs"-syndrom which make the game non fun and uninteractive.

So the humble chaos marine isn't the most powerful Troop unit in the game? That's fair. Chaos Terminators and Oblits are great however, what's wrong with them?

Rather simple, Neither terminators nor Obliterator are troop choices or carrier of the standard marine profile.
(also as an aside, both only show up with substantial support and are only really worth their points then. So not even good exemples really)

Someone in my local runs 60 Chaos Marines in a list and they do a job most games. Still leaves 1300 points in his army for other units. There are ways you can make them work if you're willing to try.