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He's also ignoring the fact that giving those AP0 weapons AP-1 negates any advantage gained by cover against them. Only one faction can do that just by showing up.

EDIT.

In regards to cover saves, we use the old system but with a straight -1 To Hit for targeting units in cover. This way cover helps everybody, regardless of armor.

In regards to Chaos wanting Primaris: No

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Does not compute? @Dudeface

I'm having trouble parsing your post.

I think that's because you're a logical person applying a reasonable perspective. Martel has a history of disliking anything horde related, with cover currently giving a bigger boost to suitability, flat ignoring 20% of wounds against most small arms is actually a downgrade in the ratio of increase in survival for hordes wearing t-shirts. he wants to promote marines getting out of cover, because he plays an assault heavy blood angels army. If the screening hordes are hunkered down in buildings they're not swamping the board waiting to block the charges where they get hit with lots of ap - attacks.

In reality, being in cover should be preferable for all units that don't want to charge and a flat 20% reduction is neither tenable nor a minor improvement for anyone.

That's not true, because heavy cover would be 40%. An upgrade. I'm over guardsmen hordes. I just had to accept my army is a one trick pony with a single path to victory and 90% of my units are still useless. Watching 20+ BA batreps that all did basically the same thing will do that. I still think 4 pts is an absurd price for guardsmen, but it no longer matters if I can take away their entire shooting phase. I'm sure they enjoy it, too.

I don't have some nefarious purpose here. I just want hiding behind a hill or a concrete wall to be more accurately and fairly depicted .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 amanita wrote:
In regards to cover saves, we use the old system but with a straight -1 To Hit for targeting units in cover. This way cover helps everybody, regardless of armor.

In regards to Chaos wanting Primaris: No

That would be better than what we have, but it affects poor BS armies more. I'd prefer a flat effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:
Erm that's not how it works lol.

That's EXACTLY how it works because you look at wounds cleared, not saves made for ultimate effect. 2+ succeeds twice as much as 3+. This is halving casualties.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:
Lol yes it is. If a 33% chance of success becomes a 50% chance of success that's a 50% increase.

This is a fact lol. Sometimes it's hard to admit we make mistakes, yours is a common one.

But that's not the important stat here.

"So yes, trash troops receive a greater bonus to cover in the current system."

The reverse is true, but you are looking at the wrong metric.

The boost to survivability to the Guardsmen is still comparatively bigger. They start at a different point.

 Ishagu wrote:
The boost to survivability to the Guardsmen is still comparatively bigger. They start at a different point.

That's not the important metric. See the all the previous math posts. Marines end up with a bigger boost in survivability. Wounds cleared is what removes models, so that's what you have to look at. This isn't that hard. Roll it out yourself.

A lot of problems could have been solved if they made Primaris Elites instead of Troops, I think, but it's a tad late for that.

There was some comparison earlier using the strongest marine chapter against one of the weaker Chaos ones and that doesn't seem fair so, instead, how's about this. Let's look at the posterboys first, which would be Ultramarines and Black Legion, see what each one gets, then you can focus on the subchapters after that.

Ultramarines get the Angels of Death rule, which has a bunch of subrules.

Shock Assault (+1 attack in a bunch of situations)
Bolter Discipline (more dakka)
Reroll Morale tests
Access to Doctrines if running a pure army.

Ultramarine Chapter traits


Black Legion get
Hateful Assault (+1 attack in a bunch of situations)
Bolter Discipline (more dakka)
Death to the False Emperor (exploding 6 in Fight phase)
Chaos Marks (optional)
Daemon Summoning (optional)

Black Legion Legion traits

The big differences here are:
Combat Doctrines (A big deal! Free AP all over the place!)
Reroll leadership
VS
1 pt cheaper for Chaos.
The rarely-used Daemon Summons and more common Chaos Marks

The Doctrines are a big deal, IMHO, and Chaos could use something similar but I'm not entirely sure what since they operate differently.

So that's our raw rules differences, which are *similar* but not the same. The 1 pt drop vs Doctrines is the key imbalance here, I personally think. Either A) raising the cost of normal Marines (unlikely tho!) or giving Chaos a similar-ish rule would be solutions.

We'll take suggestions for Chaos Doctrines here while I work on the next, really big, post. Talk a sec, I'll be back.

Csm shouldn't have doctrines. Some of the legions are too different from each other. They need legion traits that are stronger than loyalists and tailored to each legion. Back that up with optional veteran abilities and meaningful marks. Add a wound to chosen and cult troops. Then have a look at the other units in the faction.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Csm shouldn't have doctrines. Some of the legions are too different from each other. They need legion traits that are stronger than loyalists and tailored to each legion. Back that up with optional veteran abilities and meaningful marks. Add a wound to chosen and cult troops. Then have a look at the other units in the faction.

Maybe two wounds

Note that while CSM are 1ppm cheaper than Tactical Marines, the following units have exactly identical point costs to their space marine equivalents.

So unless you think there is zero impact of chapter tactics applying to vehicles+doctrines+Superdoctrines for this list of units:

-Terminators
-Lords/captains
-Sorcerors/Librarians
-Dark Apostles/Chaplains
-Warpsmiths/Techmarines
-Rhinos
-Predators
-Land Raiders
-Terminators
-Raptors/Assault Marines
-Havocs/Devastators
-Vindicators
-Helbrute/Dreadnought

then there is some kind of imbalance/unfairness at play between space marines and csm. There is literally 1ppm difference on 1 unit and you listed it as "the trade off" for a gigantic army-wide difference.

Of course its not fair. GW realized what they had done with primaris on launch and then WAY OVERREACTED, which is the GW way.

the_scotsman wrote:
Note that while CSM are 1ppm cheaper than Tactical Marines, the following units have exactly identical point costs to their space marine equivalents.

So unless you think there is zero impact of chapter tactics applying to vehicles+doctrines+Superdoctrines for this list of units:

-Terminators
-Lords/captains
-Sorcerors/Librarians
-Dark Apostles/Chaplains
-Warpsmiths/Techmarines
-Rhinos
-Predators
-Land Raiders
-Terminators
-Raptors/Assault Marines
-Havocs/Devastators
-Vindicators
-Helbrute/Dreadnought

then there is some kind of imbalance/unfairness at play between space marines and csm. There is literally 1ppm difference on 1 unit and you listed it as "the trade off" for a gigantic army-wide difference.

You left out:
Contemptors
Leviathans
Fellblades
Falchions
Daredeos
Mastodons

Those units have the same cost in both factions as well. And in some cases, most notably the leviathan, the chaos version has inferior rules before doctrines, chapter tactics, etc are factored in.

Death Guard FW Dreads are some of the best.

Chaos don't get Doctrines but they do get better psychic powers, great Legion rules and some amazing strats.

Yes, Iron Hands and Raven Guard are the best.

None of that stuff really helps them on the marine turn, though. That's the problem.

 Ishagu wrote:
Death Guard FW Dreads are some of the best.

Chaos don't get Doctrines but they do get better psychic powers, great Legion rules and some amazing strats.

Yes, Iron Hands and Raven Guard are the best.

Better Psychic powers, arguable. I agree in this case-but not enough to make up for the differences.
Great Legion Rules-like what? Black Legion rules suck. Word Bearers rules suck. Night Lords rules suck. Alpha Legion rules are good-but that's ONE LEGION.
And Strats, sure, they get some amazing strats. But it sucks to run out of CP turn two and no longer feel any different from any other legion.

Now the bigger one, comparing units available. To save my brain, I'm skipping all of the named characters. Also note that I only have the first printing of the Chaos and Marine books,not the second printing, so there are changes between them that I don't have. Feel free to add what I'm missing!

HQ
Chaos
Daemon Prince
Chaos Lord
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor
Sorcerer
Sorcerer in Terminator Armor
Dark Apostle
Exalted Champion
Warpsmith

Marines
Captain
Captain in Terminator Armor
Captain in Cataphracti Armor
Captain on Bike
Primaris Captain
Primaris Captain in Gravis Armor
Librarian
Librarian in Terminator Armor
Primaris Librarian
Chaplain
Chaplain in Terminator Armor
Primaris Chaplain
Techmarine
Lieutenants
Primaris Lieutenants

Okay, so the HQ has some tight reflections. Chaos gets the Demon Prince, who is a massive, massive beatstick. I still get flashbacks to older editions where two or three winged Demon Princes would eat whole armies, and they're much weaker in the mdoern game, but, that's an advantage that the Marines flat-out don't have.

In return, the Marines have two options that Chaos lacks... the Cataphraci option and the bike option for captains. You could say that a bike Captain and a Demon Prince are roughly the same, ish, vaguely, kinda.

And then you get the Primaris options which Chaos doesn't have. If a Primaris option was offered, you'd see a similar spread of “Primaris” Lord, “Primaris” Sorcerer, “Primaris” Dark Apostle, and “Primaris” Exaclted Champion, but, unless those are added, the Marines have more options by that exception.

TROOPS
Chaos
Chaos Space Marines
Cultists
Bloodletters
Horrors
Plaguebearers
Demonettes

Marines
Tactical Marines
Scout Squad
Intercessor Squad

The lack of “Chaos Scouts” pops up here. Cultists are more Guard than Scouts, giving a nod to the Marine advantage here. Chaos marines and Space Marine Tacticals are interchangable in all appreciable ways, save the blanket Doctrine rule which we discussed earlier.

Chaos does have the full suite of Demons available here, however, with the Plaguebearers being hugs standouts in the mix. They're head and shoulders over the other Demon options since troops revolve around durability more than firepower and having a 5++ and a 5+++ save is crazy good, with a -1 to-be-hit on top of THAT.

Which leaves the Intercessors. Again, if you add a Chaos “Primaris” version, this equates, but until then, there's a big difference.

ELITES
(oh lord, this is gonna take a minute)

Chaos
Berserkers
Rubric Marines
Plague marines
Noise Marines
Chosen
Mutilators
Chaos Terminators
Possessed
Hellbrute

Marines
Chapter Ancient
Company Ancient
Primaris Ancient
Chapter Champion
Company Champion
Honor Guard
Apothecary
Primaris Apothecary
Company Veterans
Servitors
Reiver Squad
Aggressor Squad
Terminator Squad
Assault Terminator Squad
Cataphractii Terminator Squad
Tartaros Terminator Squad
Vanguard Veteran Squad
Sternguard Veteran Squad
Dreadnought
Ironclad Dreadnought
Venerable Dreadnought
Contemptor Dreadnought
Redemptor Dreadnought
Centurion Assault Squad

PHEW!

Chosen and Veterans pair up, as do Chaos Terminators with both regular and assault Terminators, the Hellbrute and most of the Dreads match up (but a Venerable Hellbrute is a notable missing piece), but do the four Marked Chaos units compare to Cataphracti, Servitors, Apothecaries, and the standard bearers? And why doesn't Chaos have some kind of standard bearer or Apothecary? Those two seem like major oversights.

The big hole, of course, are the Aggressors and the Primaris options which, again, would be filled in by a Chaos version in theory. For now, the Marines have way, way more options, even discounting the Primaris gap.

FAST ATTACK
Chaos
Bikes
Raptors
Warp Talons
Chaos Spawn

Marines
Bike Squad
Assault Squad
Attack Bike squad
Land Speeder
Scout Bike Squad
Inceptor Squad

This one's a big hit. Chaos Spawn just aren't comperable to Land Speeders and Attack Bikes. Adding Chaos Primaris would, in theory, give them something to equate Inceptors, but the lack of Chaos Scouts leaves a hole in the Scout Bike section.

HEAVY
Havocs
Obliterators
Chaos Land Raider
Chaos Predator
Chaos Vindicator
Defiler
Forgefiend
Maulerfiend

Marines
Devastator Squad
Centurion Devastators
Land Raider
Land Raider Crusader
Land Raider Redeemer
Predator
Vindicator
Whirlwind
Hellblaster Squad
Thunderfire Cannon
Hunter
Stalker

Not a massive difference here, with Obliterators and Centurions being similar-ish, the marines having some LR variants that Chaos doesn't, and pitting the Whirlwind, Stalker, and Hunter against the Defiler, Forgefiend, and Maulerfiend, putting the shootier marines vs the fightier Chaos style, but the lack of a Thunderfire is a big hole. The Hellfire unit would, in theory, be filled by a Chaos Primaris option.

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS
Chaos
Chaos Rhino

Marines
Rhino
Razorback
Drop Pod
Land Speeder Storm
Repulsor

The most imbalanced section but one I don't hear complained about too much. Adding a Chaos Drop Pod and a Chaos Razorback seem to be no brainers, while the Repulsor is the BIG ONE, being a heavy tank hidden in a different slot. Giving Chaos a Primaris option would square that one up I think, giving marines a small edge with the Land Speeder that I don't think anyone would complain about.

((I'm cutting here, since I don't fiddle with fliers or super-heavies))

So the two forces are comparable in most areas, with dedicated transport being a BIG, but oddly invisible, hole, other than the Primaris gap.

It seems that adding a Chaos Primaris version would go far here, especially if topped off with a Chaos Razzorback and a Chaos Droppod being fair additions.

One last bit to go in this big ol' comparison.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Death Guard FW Dreads are some of the best.

Chaos don't get Doctrines but they do get better psychic powers, great Legion rules and some amazing strats.

Yes, Iron Hands and Raven Guard are the best.

Better Psychic powers, arguable. I agree in this case-but not enough to make up for the differences.
Great Legion Rules-like what? Black Legion rules suck. Word Bearers rules suck. Night Lords rules suck. Alpha Legion rules are good-but that's ONE LEGION.
And Strats, sure, they get some amazing strats. But it sucks to run out of CP turn two and no longer feel any different from any other legion.

Exactly, without cp the legions lose all their identity.

And "great legion rules".

Wakshaani wrote:


TROOPS
Chaos
Chaos Space Marines
Cultists
Bloodletters
Horrors
Plaguebearers
Demonettes

Chaos space marines do not get daemon troops. Where are you getting that? CSMs and Cultists are the only troops choices in a chaos space marines detachment. Marines by comparison now have scouts, tacticals, intercessors, incursors, and infiltrators. It's also worth noting that three of those marine troop choices have a nearly totally unique infiltrator mechanic (which they also get on a goddamn dreadnought) shared only by nurglings and stealth suits, which is far stronger than the standard infiltration rules other units have, which is generally either just deep strike, or deep strike with additional restrictions like being within 6" of a board edge.

Daemons can be SUMMONED by CSMs, but summoning works completely differently from all other detachment construction. There is no way to get daemons into CSM troop slots.

the_scotsman wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:


TROOPS
Chaos
Chaos Space Marines
Cultists
Bloodletters
Horrors
Plaguebearers
Demonettes

Chaos space marines do not get daemon troops. Where are you getting that? CSMs and Cultists are the only troops choices in a chaos space marines detachment.

They're in my Codex. Did they take that out for the 2nd version? If so , ouch. That'd be a hit.

Wakshaani wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:


TROOPS
Chaos
Chaos Space Marines
Cultists
Bloodletters
Horrors
Plaguebearers
Demonettes

Chaos space marines do not get daemon troops. Where are you getting that? CSMs and Cultists are the only troops choices in a chaos space marines detachment.

They're in my Codex. Did they take that out for the 2nd version? If so , ouch. That'd be a hit.

Theyre in the codex as a reference for summoning only - they do not get the HERETIC ASTARTES or LEGION keywords. after the removal of "Chaos" "Imperium" and "Aeldari" detachments earlier in the edition, it is now not just a case of taking them removes your detachment bonus, taking them is actually completely illegal in matched play.

CSM can take daemons as troops in the same way space marines can take guardsmen as troops

Wakshaani wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:


TROOPS
Chaos
Chaos Space Marines
Cultists
Bloodletters
Horrors
Plaguebearers
Demonettes

Chaos space marines do not get daemon troops. Where are you getting that? CSMs and Cultists are the only troops choices in a chaos space marines detachment.

They're in my Codex. Did they take that out for the 2nd version? If so , ouch. That'd be a hit.

They're there for summoning purposes. If they're included in a detachment, it's not a CSM detachment.

Edit: You CAN take them by using one of the God keywords.

Bugger.

Well, that puts Tacts and Chaos Marines on par, Scouts vs Cultists which is tilted a bit in the favor of Scouts, then the Primaris, which have no equivalent, so it tilts the Troops sections to the marines.

Adding a Chaos Primaris would even it out for the most part.

(But, again, Doctrines, but hat'll be in the final part.)

It's not about numbers of units, it's about the disparity in the rules for them. I don't want chaos primaris, I just want good rules for the units we have.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
It's not about numbers of units, it's about the disparity in the rules for them. I don't want chaos primaris, I just want good rules for the units we have.

Though with that said, it is annoying how Marines have a dozen options minimum per force org slot, while some armies have a dozen units TOTAL.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
It's not about numbers of units, it's about the disparity in the rules for them. I don't want chaos primaris, I just want good rules for the units we have.

Though with that said, it is annoying how Marines have a dozen options minimum per force org slot, while some armies have a dozen units TOTAL.

True, just ask any Harlequin player. Part of the problem when compared to csm is that certain units that could have been given to both factions were only given to loyalists. Three versions of the contemptor (one in the codex, not fw, meaning they don't need to buy an index for rules) vs our one and why do loyalists get rules for Cataphractii and Tartaros pattern terminators and we don't?

"Great Legion Rules"

My Iron Warriors are basically Imperial Fists, they're supposed to be very similar...except the Iron Warriors are worse in every way and with substantially fewer special rules and bonus abilities, unless I really want to build an army around a Fearless Cultist blob, which isn't really what Iron Warriors are about, like at all, and building any list that really does work for Iron Warriors (Terminators, Tanks, CSM squads, daemon engines, little dedication to any god except sometimes Khorne, etc) thematically is generally pretty garbage competitively, and will get absolutely blown off the table by an equivalently built Imperial Fists list.

Wakshaani wrote:

Adding a Chaos Primaris would even it out for the most part.

On the other hand, subtracting loyalist Primaris would also mostly even it out.

Although more seriously, I think an interesting move would be to allow Chaos to ally without losing their bonuses. That would immediately open up their options for builds and represent their more organic existence in comparisson to loyalists.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:

Adding a Chaos Primaris would even it out for the most part.

On the other hand, subtracting loyalist Primaris would also mostly even it out.

I didn't think it true 6-9months ago, but noestly i can see GW removing some of the basic marines stuff in the next 2-3 years, especially as more and more heroes are turning into Primaris.

If you remove some of the old TAC marine stuff, and seeing as CSM are also getting newer and larger models here and there. With a lot of old kits being kinda feels like phases out. CSM might end up being the same.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:

Adding a Chaos Primaris would even it out for the most part.

On the other hand, subtracting loyalist Primaris would also mostly even it out.

I didn't think it true 6-9months ago, but noestly i can see GW removing some of the basic marines stuff in the next 2-3 years, especially as more and more heroes are turning into Primaris.

If you remove some of the old TAC marine stuff, and seeing as CSM are also getting newer and larger models here and there. With a lot of old kits being kinda feels like phases out. CSM might end up being the same.

I prefer my idea.

But in reality balance isn't related to just 'number of unit entries' anyways. My preference is to have fewer datasheets for Chaos, but load the datasheets with many more options. Chaos should be doctrinally much, much looser. A single Terminator entry with Heavy Weapons, Combi Weapons, a plethora of CC weapons (preferably the ability to take 2CC weapons each), Mark and Veterancy upgrades can be worth the four more rigid datasheets loyalists get. Imo this is the better way to go.

 Ishagu wrote:
The boost to survivability to the Guardsmen is still comparatively bigger. They start at a different point.

That's not true. Going from a 3+ to a 2+ save (taking 50% of the damage you normally would) is significantly better than going from a 5+ to a 4+ (taking 75% of the damage you normally would). Poxwalkers going from a 7+ to a 6+ take 83% the damage they normally would; they are not the winners here.

The current cover system disproportionately benefits high-armor armies. They receive a greater boost to their survivability. This is especially true when high-AP weapons are in play, and poorly-armored things like Guardsmen receive minimal (or no) benefit from cover.