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Had a practice game against myself running space marines against chaos alpha legion. During the game I found a few points I wasn't sure on or wanted to check.

1. Space Marines Stratagem - Fury of the First

"Use this Stratagem in any phase. Select one ADEPTUS ASTARTES TERMINATOR unit from your army. Until the end of that phase, when resolving an attack made by a model in that unit, add 1 to the hit roll."

If the phase this is played is the enemy Charge phase, would this result in Overwatch of 5+? My initial feeling is no because the BRB states

"Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers"

However this stratagem doesn't specify just the Shooting and Fight Phases, it doesn't say "As if it were the shooting phase" like alot of other Stratagems and the stratagem surely can't count as a modifier, otherwise other Stratagems such as Tau Point-Defense Targeting Relay would also count as modifiers and not affect Overwatch rolls.
In my game I called it that it didn't allow 5+ overwatch so interested to see if I got it right.


2. Alpha Legion Stratagem - Renascent Infiltration
This broadly lets you remove a unit from the battlefield and deepstrike it back on in the next turn. How would this play out against the Tactical Reserves rule that states

"any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed"

Seems pretty clear cut it can only be used in Turns 1 or 2 but the stratagem even goes on to talk about if the battle ends before it returns it counts as slain...what are your thoughts?


3. Alpha Legion Stratagem - Ambush
If an enemy unit arrived on the battlefield because it was disembarking from a transport or building I don't believe that would count as reinforcements, because of BRB stating

"Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes"

Seeing as disembarked units can still move then they must be arriving on the battlefield as something else other than reinforcements, but just want to check they wouldn't be valid targets of this Stratagem.


4. Alpha Legion Stratagem - Scrambled Coordinates
On playing the stratagem could the enemy player choose not to deepstrike or choose to change the location of the deepstrike? Would that be against the rules, or just bad form?


5. Space Marine Scout Sniper Rifles

"This weapon can target a CHARACTER unit even if it is not the closest enemy unit. When resolving an attack made with this weapon, a wound roll of 6+ inflicts 1 mortal wound on the target in addition to any other damage."

The wording would be better if it mentioned the wound on 6 stuff before the character targeting. Does this weapon also wound non-characters on a 6?


6. Obliterators - Flesh Metal Guns ability

"Each time this unit is chosen to attack with fleshmetal guns, roll three D3"

Because you roll the D3 when the Obliterator is chosen to attack, can you essentially see what you roll and then pick the most suitable target?


7. Helbrute - Crazed ability
If it takes a wound in the opponent's shooting phase would it fire without a Heavy -1 to hit penalty?
The Heavy weapon rule wording is

"If a model with a Heavy weapon moved in its preceding Movement phase, you must subtract 1 from any hit rolls"

so am I right in thinking if it moved in the Movement Phase of my last turn it is penalized with -1 to hit, but if it was stationary in its Movement Phase and only moved in its Charge Phase (as a charge) or my Fight Phase (as a pile in or consolidate) then its not penalized with -1 to hit?


8. Helbrute - Crazed ability

"piles in and fights as if it were the Fight phase if there are enemies within 1"

This seems to be worded to suggest it gets ALL of it's attacks rather than just one attack. Is that correct?


9. Cover Rules
Cover bonus still thoroughly confuses me. I was trying to work out if this unit of terminators get a cover save against the obliterators


The BRB states

"If a unit is entirely on or within any terrain feature, add 1 to its models’ saving throws against shooting attacks to represent the cover received from the terrain"

CA19 has rules for Obstacles and Barricades, but neither seem to apply to this situation either. I thought maybe some of the terminators would count as in cover and when I choose which model to allocate the wounds to I can choose either one in cover or not in cover.
In the end I decided the Terminators dont benefit from cover and they got completely misted anyway. But was that the right call?

Thanks in advance for any help and comments you can provide to help me better understand

1) Overwatch only hits on a 6 "irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers" And since Fury of the First does not specify that it modifies Overwatch, it does not.

2) Renascent Infiltration does not interact with the Tactical Reserves rule at all. the Tactical Reserves rule is talking about units that have never been on the board.

3) You can not shoot at a disembarking unit as per the 40k main rules FAQ page 11.

"Q. Some rules – such as Early Warning Override in Codex: T’au Empire, the Ever Vigilant Stratagem in Codex: Adeptus Custodes, and the Auspex Scan Stratagem in Codex: Space Marines – allow units to shoot at enemy units that have just arrived on the battlefield as reinforcements, as if it were the Shooting phase.
Q2. If the unit arriving as reinforcements has another unit embarked inside it which must disembark after it has been set up (such as units embarked within a Drop Pod, or a Tyrannocyte), can the firing unit shoot at the unit as it disembarks?
A: No – though the unit can shoot at the Drop Pod/Tyrannocyte before the units inside disembark.

4) I am not familiar with that rule.

5) Those are two separate sentences, so yes sniper rifles will inflict "1 mortal wound on the target in addition to any other damage." to anyone, not just characters.

6) I am not familiar with that rule.

7) If the Hellbrute moved in in its preceding Movement phase you take the -1. if it did not move in its preceding Movement phase then you do not take the -1.

8) The Hellbrute "fights as if it were the Fight phase" does it only have 1 attack in the fight phase? or multiple?

9) This is not something we are really going to be able to give a definitive answer on. It depends on what you and your opponent discussed for the terrain prior to the game.

The terrain rules say "If a unit is entirely on or within any terrain feature..." so all models must be on or within the terrain feature to gain the benefit. E.G. you have 5 models, and 4 of them are on or within a terrain feature that confers cover, and one is not, no one gets cover. However, if you allocate a wound to the model outside of the terrain, and it dies, then your other four will get the cover bonus.

I hope some of that helps.

 URCshadow wrote:
4. Alpha Legion Stratagem - Scrambled Coordinates
On playing the stratagem could the enemy player choose not to deepstrike or choose to change the location of the deepstrike? Would that be against the rules, or just bad form?

No. From the 'Scrambled Coordinates' stratagem (emphasis added):

Use this Stratagem in your opponent’s Movement phase, when an enemy unit is set up on the battlefield as reinforcements but before it is placed on the battlefield.

The enemy player has already decided to set up the unit as reinforcements and has begun that action. He can not then go back and change his mind just because his opponent plays the 'Scrambled Coordinates' stratagem

3. Its unclear whether units disembarking from a transport are reinforcements, or not. The reinforcements rule from the BRB says : "Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases."
A disembarking unit is set up mid turn, thus it fits the description of reinforcements. OTOH the FAQs say that units disembarking from a unit which itself has arrived as reinforcements cant be targeted by several stratagems, suggesting that a disembarking unit isnt reinforcements. It doesnt answer whether units disembarking are reinforcements or not. They could be, but cant be targeted because the FAQs say no.

6. "Each time this unit is chosen to attack with fleshmetal guns, roll three D3"

The rules for the shooting phase tell us that the first step is to choose a unit to shoot with. Thats where you roll the three D3. In step two you pick targets. You have to roll the three D3 first, and then decide what you want to target.

8. Yes, the helbrute gets to do all of his melee attacks.

1. Overwatch still only hits on a 6. Any effect that would trigger on a 6+ still triggers if you roll a 5 (as it is modified to a 6).

2. Units that go off the battlefield after starting on it are not subject to the Tactical Reserves rule. The Tactical Reserves rule only applies to units that are deployed somewhere other than the battlefield.

3. Disembarking units do count as reinforcements, RaW. Apparently I am the only one who plays by the rules and treats them as such, however. They can move because the Disembarking move permits them to move after disembarking. You can't use this stratagem on a drop podding unit, as per the FAQ.

4. The unit must still be placed.

5. The sniper rule that triggers on 6+ to wound occurs for any attacks, not just attacks against CHARACTER units.

6. You choose a unit to shoot with before choosing targets (step 1 is choose, step 2 is target). Therefore you roll for stats before picking a target.

7. Correct, only movement in it's last Movement phase will trigger the heavy weapon penalty.

8. Yes, it makes all it's attacks.

9. It depends on whether those rocks are barricades or not. If not, then no, the Terminators do not have cover.

cheers guys, much appreciated

Number 1 is interesting, so if you had some chapter tactic or something that generated extra hits on a 6, if you had used Fury of the First and rolled a 5, THAT hit would fail but you would get the extra hit?

Number 3 seems contentious in terms of what counts as reinforcements, hopefully GW will FAQ in the future because the two rules seem to conflict

Number 4 - I get that the opponent is now forced to place that deepstriking unit, but still not clear on if they could elect to place it somewhere entirely different on the battlefield.

Number 9 - The Barricades rules seems to suggest that the baricade has to be closer to the firing unit than the target unit for the cover to apply. Because the Obliterators are behind the Terminators I didn't feel it applied. Two were kind of hidden amongst rocks but I didnt feel the general cover rule applied because the entire unit wasn't amongst them. As DeathReaper says, if you elect to kill off the exposed Terminators first, the remaining would then potentially get a cover save

 URCshadow wrote:
cheers guys, much appreciated

Number 1 is interesting, so if you had some chapter tactic or something that generated extra hits on a 6, if you had used Fury of the First and rolled a 5, THAT hit would fail but you would get the extra hit?

Number 3 seems contentious in terms of what counts as reinforcements, hopefully GW will FAQ in the future because the two rules seem to conflict

Number 4 - I get that the opponent is now forced to place that deepstriking unit, but still not clear on if they could elect to place it somewhere entirely different on the battlefield.

Number 9 - The Barricades rules seems to suggest that the baricade has to be closer to the firing unit than the target unit for the cover to apply. Because the Obliterators are behind the Terminators I didn't feel it applied. Two were kind of hidden amongst rocks but I didnt feel the general cover rule applied because the entire unit wasn't amongst them. As DeathReaper says, if you elect to kill off the exposed Terminators first, the remaining would then potentially get a cover save

1) Only if it's 6+. If it's unmodified 6's it won't.

3) GW haven't even FAQed Assault Weapons to work, which is weird because they did errata being forced to fire Hunter Killer Missiles and 2++ Meganobz, so who knows anymore.

4) They haven't decided where to place it at the time you use the stratagem, so they can place it wherever they want after you use it.

9) Oh, my bad they were behind the Terminators. It depends if you're counting the grassy mat as area terrain. If you're not, then no cover. If you are, and all the terminators are touching it, then yes.

'Scrambled Cordinates' simply means that the unit arriving from reinforcements must be more than 12" away from any enemy units (instead of the usual 9"). It does not change any of the other rules as to where the unit may be set up.

As for the fleshmetal guns, from the Codex Chaos Space Marines FAQ:

Q. When should I roll to determine the characteristics of my Obliterators’ fleshmetal guns?

A. Determine these characteristics in step 1 of the Shooting sequence, when you select the unit to shoot.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 URCshadow wrote:
cheers guys, much appreciated

Number 1 is interesting, so if you had some chapter tactic or something that generated extra hits on a 6, if you had used Fury of the First and rolled a 5, THAT hit would fail but you would get the extra hit?

1) Only if it's 6+. If it's unmodified 6's it won't.

Not true. When you roll a 5 in overwatch that hit fails with +1 to hit. It does get modified to 6, but you cant get additional hits when you dont hit in the first place.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 URCshadow wrote:
cheers guys, much appreciated

Number 1 is interesting, so if you had some chapter tactic or something that generated extra hits on a 6, if you had used Fury of the First and rolled a 5, THAT hit would fail but you would get the extra hit?

1) Only if it's 6+. If it's unmodified 6's it won't.

Not true. When you roll a 5 in overwatch that hit fails with +1 to hit. It does get modified to 6, but you cant get additional hits when you dont hit in the first place.

Of course you can get additional hits even if you fail the hit roll, why wouldn't you? It would be different if you replaced the hit, like tesla, that does "3 hits instead of 1", since you would have nothing to replace, but if it's additive, nothing prevents you from getting 0+1=1 hits on a roll of 5 (+1)

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 URCshadow wrote:
cheers guys, much appreciated

Number 1 is interesting, so if you had some chapter tactic or something that generated extra hits on a 6, if you had used Fury of the First and rolled a 5, THAT hit would fail but you would get the extra hit?

1) Only if it's 6+. If it's unmodified 6's it won't.

Not true. When you roll a 5 in overwatch that hit fails with +1 to hit. It does get modified to 6, but you cant get additional hits when you dont hit in the first place.

I said if the ability is 6+, not the roll. Ofc if the roll is 5 and then modified to 6, and the ability states 6+, it would trigger. You can get the additional hits even if the original one misses, the same way as you can get an additional relic if you take none initially.

Yeah, additional literally just means 'added'.

If you have zero and add one, that is one additional thing.

Seizeman wrote:

Of course you can get additional hits even if you fail the hit roll, why wouldn't you? It would be different if you replaced the hit, like tesla, that does "3 hits instead of 1", since you would have nothing to replace, but if it's additive, nothing prevents you from getting 0+1=1 hits on a roll of 5 (+1)

Not in the case of overwatch since a 5 does not hit, so you can not get additional hits from something that fails to hit.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Seizeman wrote:

Of course you can get additional hits even if you fail the hit roll, why wouldn't you? It would be different if you replaced the hit, like tesla, that does "3 hits instead of 1", since you would have nothing to replace, but if it's additive, nothing prevents you from getting 0+1=1 hits on a roll of 5 (+1)

Not in the case of overwatch since a 5 does not hit, so you can not get additional hits from something that fails to hit.

Why not, exactly? This kind of abilities are worded as "a hit roll of 6+" not as "a successful hit roll of 6+", so there's absolutely no relation between the hit roll being successful and you getting the extra hit. If your argument is that you need a hit in the first place in order to add an extra hit, that's not how adding works.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Seizeman wrote:

Of course you can get additional hits even if you fail the hit roll, why wouldn't you? It would be different if you replaced the hit, like tesla, that does "3 hits instead of 1", since you would have nothing to replace, but if it's additive, nothing prevents you from getting 0+1=1 hits on a roll of 5 (+1)

Not in the case of overwatch since a 5 does not hit, so you can not get additional hits from something that fails to hit.

Yes, you can. 0+1 is 1. Or do you have a rule citation that says otherwise? I know you're the kind of guy who uses unrelated FAQs as precedent, so the FAQ about Smoke Launchers replacing the act of shooting when shooting is not possible should suffice for you, right?

The FAQ about Smoke Launchers does not apply to this situation at all.

You cant get additional of something you do not have in the first place.

Since the fundamental basis of this debate is the definition of additional, I will post it:

addition
a thing that is added to something else

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/addition

You cant add extra of something you do not have in the first place.

Of course you can! Your definition proves you wrong in fact.

Zero is a valid number.

So two schools of thought, good! thats the whole point of this section of the forum right? But please can both sides dispense with the sarcasm?

OK so one view is that the original overwatch hit would fail on a 5, but if a +1 hit modifier is present then any appropriate effects would kick in

The other view is that because the original overwatch hit failed, then any other effects that produced a hit also fail

So what if that effect were to generate an additional attack instead of an additional hit? There has already been an attack so the argument around the definition of "additional" would allow for an additional attack?

The opposing argument isnt that all effects are ignored. Specifically it is that to have an additional, the starting amount must be greater than or equal to 1.

This is not inherent to the definition of additional, it is an arbitrary distinction without a rules basis.

My view is that the overwatch roll of 5 fails to hit and the modifier is applied to see if additional effects take place such as extra hits, mortal wounds etc.

As previous posters have said, 0 + 1= 1. If the effect was a multiplication that would be different. Also the wording of ignoring modifiers is key. If the rule was “ to hit modifiers are ignored/ are not applied when firing overwatch” things would be different, but as the rule is currently I think the additional hits are generated.

I have to agree with additional hits on overwatch, i got confused with tesla, which doesnt work with +1 to hit in overwatch.

I am of the opinion that Tesla does work, but let's leave it at those two opposing viewpoints, shall we?