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Just had something come up in a game, wondering what the timing on this is.
Let's say an ork player wants to shoot an eldar tank.
Who has to declare their stratagem first? the eldar LFR or the ork more Dakka?

I believe it's the eldar LFR, but looking for some clarity if anyone else has researched it.

Stratagems for informative discussion, regards.

More Dakka...
Use this Stratagem before an ORK unit from your army
shoots in your Shooting phase. Until the end of the phase,
that unit’s Dakka! Dakka! Dakka! ability triggers on
unmodified hit rolls of 5 or 6, instead of 6.
LFR
Use this Stratagem when a friendly ASURYANI INFANTRY unit,
or a friendly ASURYANI unit with the FLY keyword, is targeted
by a ranged or melee weapon. Subtract 1 from all hit rolls
made against that unit for the rest of the phase.

The Eldar stratagem is used in step 2 of the shooting phase sequence. The ork stratagem is used any time before step 4 of the shooting phase sequence.

So you are correct, the Eldar stratagem is forced to be used first and More Dakka can be used to effectively render the LFR stratagem moot.

I disagree with BCB.

Step 4 is Resolve Attacks, it is not "shoot". I must surmise that "shoot" incorporates the entire Shooting Sequence. Since you must declare More Dakka "before an ORK unit from your army shoots in your Shooting phase", you must declare it at some point before Step 1 - Choose unit to shoot with.

Thus More Dakka must be declared first.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The Eldar stratagem is used in step 2 of the shooting phase sequence. The ork stratagem is used any time before step 4 of the shooting phase sequence.

So you are correct, the Eldar stratagem is forced to be used first and More Dakka can be used to effectively render the LFR stratagem moot.

If the Ork player declares using More Dakka early on, in step 1 or before the Eldar player says anything in step 2, the Eldar player can just not declare he wants to use LFR. Since the Ork player is only required before step 4, an overenthusiastic player might declare it too early. Even if simultaneously declaring, sequencing would be up to the Ork player, so it would behoove the Ork player to wait until after step 2 to make the Eldar player waste the CP on the LFR stratagem before announcing he's going to use More Dakka. He's not requred to wait, however.

I agree that the More Dakka would effectively render the LFR stratagem moot and that the Eldar player has to declare in step 2 of the shooting phase sequence. If he doesn't declare by the end of step 2 he wouldn't be using LFR..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
I disagree with BCB.

Step 4 is Resolve Attacks, it is not "shoot". I must surmise that "shoot" incorporates the entire Shooting Sequence. Since you must declare More Dakka "before an ORK unit from your army shoots in your Shooting phase", you must declare it at some point before Step 1 - Choose unit to shoot with.

Thus More Dakka must be declared first.

Fair point - this will boil down to the interpretation of "shoot" means the entire shooting sequence or only once you start making "to hit " rolls. I think there will be a lot of people who would interpret it to mean the latter, so it would be best to discuss with your opponent before a game or before using the stratagem.

Step 1 is "Choose a unit to Shoot with" but you don't actually shoot until you resolve the attacks in step 4.

"Shoots" is not the same as "Choose a unit to Shoot with"

 alextroy wrote:
I disagree with BCB.

Step 4 is Resolve Attacks, it is not "shoot". I must surmise that "shoot" incorporates the entire Shooting Sequence. Since you must declare More Dakka "before an ORK unit from your army shoots in your Shooting phase", you must declare it at some point before Step 1 - Choose unit to shoot with.

Thus More Dakka must be declared first.

Not true. The stratagem must be declared in the shooting phase. The shooting phase begins with step 1, choose units to shoot with. You cannot declare the stratagem before step 1 of the shooting phase, because before step 1 there is no shooting phase.

The rulebook says, in the "step 2" section, that a unit chosen to shoot in phase 1 is "a shooting unit", so that would indicate, that at that point the "shooting" action has already started. Therefore, to use the stratagem "before shooting" you need to use it before that, in step 1.

 p5freak wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I disagree with BCB.

Step 4 is Resolve Attacks, it is not "shoot". I must surmise that "shoot" incorporates the entire Shooting Sequence. Since you must declare More Dakka "before an ORK unit from your army shoots in your Shooting phase", you must declare it at some point before Step 1 - Choose unit to shoot with.

Thus More Dakka must be declared first.

Not true. The stratagem must be declared in the shooting phase. The shooting phase begins with step 1, choose units to shoot with. You cannot declare the stratagem before step 1 of the shooting phase, because before step 1 there is no shooting phase.

Looking at the wording some more, it says that you use it on an ork unit before shooting in the shooting phase. As you say, it can't be used before step 1. But, getting to Alex's point, if they meant for it to be at the beginning of the shooting phase, why say "shoots in your shooting phase" instead of just saying "at the beginning of the unit's shooting phase" or something similar? I would tend to agree with BCB here that it's able to be used any time before the unit actually shoots in step 4 (resolve shooting).

 doctortom wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I disagree with BCB.

Step 4 is Resolve Attacks, it is not "shoot". I must surmise that "shoot" incorporates the entire Shooting Sequence. Since you must declare More Dakka "before an ORK unit from your army shoots in your Shooting phase", you must declare it at some point before Step 1 - Choose unit to shoot with.

Thus More Dakka must be declared first.

Not true. The stratagem must be declared in the shooting phase. The shooting phase begins with step 1, choose units to shoot with. You cannot declare the stratagem before step 1 of the shooting phase, because before step 1 there is no shooting phase.

Looking at the wording some more, it says that you use it on an ork unit before shooting in the shooting phase. As you say, it can't be used before step 1. But, getting to Alex's point, if they meant for it to be at the beginning of the shooting phase, why say "shoots in your shooting phase" instead of just saying "at the beginning of the unit's shooting phase" or something similar? I would tend to agree with BCB here that it's able to be used any time before the unit actually shoots in step 4 (resolve shooting).

Alex is wrong. Because they didnt say at the start of the shooting phase, its at any point during the shooting phase before step 4.

Seizeman wrote:
The rulebook says, in the "step 2" section, that a unit chosen to shoot in phase 1 is "a shooting unit", so that would indicate, that at that point the "shooting" action has already started. Therefore, to use the stratagem "before shooting" you need to use it before that, in step 1.

Again, "a shooting unit" is not the same as "shoots".

Bob goes to gun range to shoot some guns. He is a shooting person, but only the act of pulling the trigger is when he shoots, so anything he does before that action is "before he shoots".

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Seizeman wrote:
The rulebook says, in the "step 2" section, that a unit chosen to shoot in phase 1 is "a shooting unit", so that would indicate, that at that point the "shooting" action has already started. Therefore, to use the stratagem "before shooting" you need to use it before that, in step 1.

Again, "a shooting unit" is not the same as "shoots".

Bob goes to gun range to shoot some guns. He is a shooting person, but only the act of pulling the trigger is when he shoots, so anything he does before that action is "before he shoots".

It could be argued that pulling the trigger is in fact “making an attack with a ranged weapon” and IIRC this is how the rules refer to it. I don’t think the rules actual specifically state when a model actually shoots. In fact isn’t it the weapon that shoots and the not the model?

That being said, I’m really only playing Devil’s Advocate and on balance I’d play it that the act of shooting is the same as rolling to hit.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Seizeman wrote:
The rulebook says, in the "step 2" section, that a unit chosen to shoot in phase 1 is "a shooting unit", so that would indicate, that at that point the "shooting" action has already started. Therefore, to use the stratagem "before shooting" you need to use it before that, in step 1.

Again, "a shooting unit" is not the same as "shoots".

Bob goes to gun range to shoot some guns. He is a shooting person, but only the act of pulling the trigger is when he shoots, so anything he does before that action is "before he shoots".

Bob is not a shooting person until he actually starts pulling the trigger, as intent to perform an action is not the same as performing an action. The moment he shoots and the moment he becomes a shooting entity (a person, in this case) is exactly the same. In the same way, a unit in step 2 of the shooting phase is, according to the rule, a "shooting unit", and it can't be a shooting unit unless it has started the "shoot" action.

The Shooting Phase does not start when you select the first unit to Shoot. The rules never state that. Furthermore, it would be impossible to do actions "at the start of the shooting phase" if the phase didn't start until after you start the Shooting process since you wouldn't be able to do such an action until you select a unit to shoot with.

There is a beginning of the Shooting Phase that takes place just before you select the first unit to shoot with that allows rules like AM Voice of Command to function.

 alextroy wrote:
The Shooting Phase does not start when you select the first unit to Shoot. The rules never state that. Furthermore, it would be impossible to do actions "at the start of the shooting phase" if the phase didn't start until after you start the Shooting process since you wouldn't be able to do such an action until you select a unit to shoot with.

There is a beginning of the Shooting Phase that takes place just before you select the first unit to shoot with that allows rules like AM Voice of Command to function.

No, there isn't some magical "beginning of the shooting phase" mini-phase. The sequencing rule deals with resolving Step 1 and Start of the Shooting Phase actions.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
The Shooting Phase does not start when you select the first unit to Shoot. The rules never state that. Furthermore, it would be impossible to do actions "at the start of the shooting phase" if the phase didn't start until after you start the Shooting process since you wouldn't be able to do such an action until you select a unit to shoot with.

There is a beginning of the Shooting Phase that takes place just before you select the first unit to shoot with that allows rules like AM Voice of Command to function.

No, there isn't some magical "beginning of the shooting phase" mini-phase. The sequencing rule deals with resolving Step 1 and Start of the Shooting Phase actions.

The fact that stratagems that can be used "at the beginning of the shooting" exist is clear evidence that there's such thing as a beginning of the phase. Nowhere in the rules is stated that choosing a unit to shoot with is the first thing you can do in the shooting phase, what the rules states is "In your Shooting phase you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons". There's nothing that suggest that shooting is the only thing you do in the shooting phase, just one of the things you can choose to do in it. There are many things you can do in the shooting phase, like using stratagems and abilites, discharging wave serpent shields or shooting, and nothing in the shooting phase rules specify a particular timing for them or the mandatoriness of any of those actions

Not this debate again... there logically *must* be a mini phase or some rules don’t work. It’s disingenuous to pretend otherwise, as the previous poster said some Strats and indeed things like Orders refer to “at the start of the Shooting Phase”. It would be great if, three years into the edition, some folk stopped vehemently arguing that black=white.

Seizeman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
The Shooting Phase does not start when you select the first unit to Shoot. The rules never state that. Furthermore, it would be impossible to do actions "at the start of the shooting phase" if the phase didn't start until after you start the Shooting process since you wouldn't be able to do such an action until you select a unit to shoot with.

There is a beginning of the Shooting Phase that takes place just before you select the first unit to shoot with that allows rules like AM Voice of Command to function.

No, there isn't some magical "beginning of the shooting phase" mini-phase. The sequencing rule deals with resolving Step 1 and Start of the Shooting Phase actions.

The fact that stratagems that can be used "at the beginning of the shooting" exist is clear evidence that there's such thing as a beginning of the phase. Nowhere in the rules is stated that choosing a unit to shoot with is the first thing you can do in the shooting phase, what the rules states is "In your Shooting phase you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons". There's nothing that suggest that shooting is the only thing you do in the shooting phase, just one of the things you can choose to do in it. There are many things you can do in the shooting phase, like using stratagems and abilites, discharging wave serpent shields or shooting, and nothing in the shooting phase rules specify a particular timing for them or the mandatoriness of any of those actions

There is no requirement to shoot at all in the shooting phase, so it is entirely possible to have a shooting phase during which no units are selected to shoot with at all. The shooting phase still starts and ends, so the starting of the shooting phase must be distinct from selecting a unit to shoot.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Not this debate again... there logically *must* be a mini phase or some rules don’t work. It’s disingenuous to pretend otherwise, as the previous poster said some Strats and indeed things like Orders refer to “at the start of the Shooting Phase”. It would be great if, three years into the edition, some folk stopped vehemently arguing that black=white.

That there "must" be a mini phase at the beginning does not mean that the stratagem has to be used in that miniphase. The strat says anytime before you shoot, which can be intperpreted to mean when you start resolving shooting - actually shooting, instead of just announcing intentions beforehand. It depends on how you interpret "before shooting" to mean, and it doesn't hecessarily mean that "before shooting" = "before shooting phase.

Again, talk with your opponent about how he interprets "before shooting in the shooting phase" for the strat before using it to avoid arguments. If you can't agree quickly, roll off then decide after the game how to handle it in the future.

 doctortom wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Not this debate again... there logically *must* be a mini phase or some rules don’t work. It’s disingenuous to pretend otherwise, as the previous poster said some Strats and indeed things like Orders refer to “at the start of the Shooting Phase”. It would be great if, three years into the edition, some folk stopped vehemently arguing that black=white.

That there "must" be a mini phase at the beginning does not mean that the stratagem has to be used in that miniphase. The strat says anytime before you shoot, which can be intperpreted to mean when you start resolving shooting - actually shooting, instead of just announcing intentions beforehand. It depends on how you interpret "before shooting" to mean, and it doesn't hecessarily mean that "before shooting" = "before shooting phase.

Again, talk with your opponent about how he interprets "before shooting in the shooting phase" for the strat before using it to avoid arguments. If you can't agree quickly, roll off then decide after the game how to handle it in the future.

I wasn’t referencing the particular stratagem, just the general principle that was once again being misrepresented.

If you can show me in the rules where this mythical mini-phase exists, please do so. I've read my rulebook front to back and cannot find it.

AOS splits out phases into start, middle, and end. 40k does not.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If you can show me in the rules where this mythical mini-phase exists, please do so. I've read my rulebook front to back and cannot find it.

AOS splits out phases into start, middle, and end. 40k does not.

Unnecessary. It does not have to be explicitly mentioned to exist. Voice of Command is a perfect example. Sequencing doesn't account for it unless you believe one unit can shoot before you do any of your Voice of Command uses.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If you can show me in the rules where this mythical mini-phase exists, please do so. I've read my rulebook front to back and cannot find it.

AOS splits out phases into start, middle, and end. 40k does not.

It's not a mini-phase. The moment the previous phase end and the sooting phase starts is, by definition, the beginning of the shooting phase. At that moment, any player can use "at the beginning of the phase" stratagems and abilities, following the sequencing rules. The moment before the following phase start is, by definition, the end of the shooting phase and, at that moment, players can use "at the end of the phase" stratagems and abilities, following the sequencing rule. Warhammer does not use a priority systems for actions, so it does not need precise substeps for these situations.

That there "must" be a mini phase at the beginning does not mean that the stratagem has to be used in that miniphase. The strat says anytime before you shoot, which can be intperpreted to mean when you start resolving shooting - actually shooting, instead of just announcing intentions beforehand. It depends on how you interpret "before shooting" to mean, and it doesn't hecessarily mean that "before shooting" = "before shooting phase

Declaring the attack resolution as the "actual shooting" is arbitrary and not supported by the rules. As I already showed, a unit becomes "a shooting unit" after selecting it to shoot and before shooting targets (first sentence in the "choose targets" section). For it to be a shooting unit, it must have started the shooting action, so you can't do something "before it shoots" while it is shooting.

Seizeman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If you can show me in the rules where this mythical mini-phase exists, please do so. I've read my rulebook front to back and cannot find it.

AOS splits out phases into start, middle, and end. 40k does not.

It's not a mini-phase. The moment the previous phase end and the sooting phase starts is, by definition, the beginning of the shooting phase. At that moment, any player can use "at the beginning of the phase" stratagems and abilities, following the sequencing rules. The moment before the following phase start is, by definition, the end of the shooting phase and, at that moment, players can use "at the end of the phase" stratagems and abilities, following the sequencing rule. Warhammer does not use a priority systems for actions, so it does not need precise substeps for these situations.

That there "must" be a mini phase at the beginning does not mean that the stratagem has to be used in that miniphase. The strat says anytime before you shoot, which can be intperpreted to mean when you start resolving shooting - actually shooting, instead of just announcing intentions beforehand. It depends on how you interpret "before shooting" to mean, and it doesn't hecessarily mean that "before shooting" = "before shooting phase

Declaring the attack resolution as the "actual shooting" is arbitrary and not supported by the rules. As I already showed, a unit becomes "a shooting unit" after selecting it to shoot and before shooting targets (first sentence in the "choose targets" section). For it to be a shooting unit, it must have started the shooting action, so you can't do something "before it shoots" while it is shooting.

If I select a unit to shoot with, and decide that I’m take an action other than shooting ( eg. Smoke launchers) is that unit still a “shooting unit” and did it start shooting when I selected it even if it never shot and in fact it was never going to shoot?

And what if I select a unit that is unable to shoot ( no ranged weapons, for instance). Is it still a shooting unit?

Aash wrote:
If I select a unit to shoot with, and decide that I’m take an action other than shooting ( eg. Smoke launchers) is that unit still a “shooting unit” and did it start shooting when I selected it even if it never shot and in fact it was never going to shoot?

And what if I select a unit that is unable to shoot ( no ranged weapons, for instance). Is it still a shooting unit?

Depends on the rule in question. For example, you don't select a unit to shoot and use Smoke Launchers, you select the unit and elect to use Smoke Launchers instead of shooting.

As for the second question, a unit with no ranged weapons is not eligible to be picked to shoot per the first sentence of Choose a Unit to Shoot With. I will not open the question of the legality of choosing not to shoot with a model that can shoot if it's unit is picked.

 alextroy wrote:

Aash wrote:
If I select a unit to shoot with, and decide that I’m take an action other than shooting ( eg. Smoke launchers) is that unit still a “shooting unit” and did it start shooting when I selected it even if it never shot and in fact it was never going to shoot?

And what if I select a unit that is unable to shoot ( no ranged weapons, for instance). Is it still a shooting unit?

Depends on the rule in question. For example, you don't select a unit to shoot and use Smoke Launchers, you select the unit and elect to use Smoke Launchers instead of shooting.

As for the second question, a unit with no ranged weapons is not eligible to be picked to shoot per the first sentence of Choose a Unit to Shoot With. I will not open the question of the legality of choosing not to shoot with a model that can shoot if it's unit is picked.

Fair enough on the one about no ranged weapons, but if the ranged weapons are out of range?

I know I’m being facetious, but my point remains - the claim that the shooting phase starts when a unit is selected to shoot with is demonstrably false as is the assertion that a unit is “shooting” as soon as it is selected in the shooting phase.

I know I’m being facetious, but my point remains - the claim that the shooting phase starts when a unit is selected to shoot with is demonstrably false as is the assertion that a unit is “shooting” as soon as it is selected in the shooting phase.

The assertion that a unit is shooting as soon as it is selected is not demonstrably false, it's what's in the rules.

"Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks. In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model."

This clearle states that, to pick a target unit, the SHOOTING UNIT has been chosen, so the unit is a shooting unit at this point. In the same way the model must be in range to the SHOOTING MODEL, so, you can't target anthing if you don't have a shooting model.

The term "shooting unit" (or shooting model) only has one meaning: "a unit that is shooting". Doing something "while it is shooting" and "before it shoots" at the same time is impossible.

Seizeman wrote:

I know I’m being facetious, but my point remains - the claim that the shooting phase starts when a unit is selected to shoot with is demonstrably false as is the assertion that a unit is “shooting” as soon as it is selected in the shooting phase.

The assertion that a unit is shooting as soon as it is selected is not demonstrably false, it's what's in the rules.

"Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks. In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model."

This clearle states that, to pick a target unit, the SHOOTING UNIT has been chosen, so the unit is a shooting unit at this point. In the same way the model must be in range to the SHOOTING MODEL, so, you can't target anthing if you don't have a shooting model.

The term "shooting unit" (or shooting model) only has one meaning: "a unit that is shooting". Doing something "while it is shooting" and "before it shoots" at the same time is impossible.

Which is why I made the earlier point about selecting a unit and then choosing to do an action other than shooting such as using smoke launchers.

Seizeman wrote:

I know I’m being facetious, but my point remains - the claim that the shooting phase starts when a unit is selected to shoot with is demonstrably false as is the assertion that a unit is “shooting” as soon as it is selected in the shooting phase.

The assertion that a unit is shooting as soon as it is selected is not demonstrably false, it's what's in the rules.

"Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks. In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model."

This clearle states that, to pick a target unit, the SHOOTING UNIT has been chosen, so the unit is a shooting unit at this point. In the same way the model must be in range to the SHOOTING MODEL, so, you can't target anthing if you don't have a shooting model.

The unit isn't actually shooting yet. The proof of that in in step 3, Cboose ranged weapons. "if a model has severl weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit. Similarly, if a unit contains more than one model, they can shootat the same, or different targets as you choose.In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit's shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shoots against one target before moving on to the next."

They reference the shooting unit, but are saying the unit "can" shoot - meaning it hasn't already started shooting yet.

The next paragraph for step 3, Number of Attacks, starts "Earch time a model shoots a renaged weapon, it will make a a number of attacks. You roll one dice for each attack being made."

Sound like definite evidence for the unit shooting being when you roll attacks, which is step 4.

 doctortom wrote:

Seizeman wrote:

I know I’m being facetious, but my point remains - the claim that the shooting phase starts when a unit is selected to shoot with is demonstrably false as is the assertion that a unit is “shooting” as soon as it is selected in the shooting phase.

The assertion that a unit is shooting as soon as it is selected is not demonstrably false, it's what's in the rules.

"Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks. In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model."

This clearle states that, to pick a target unit, the SHOOTING UNIT has been chosen, so the unit is a shooting unit at this point. In the same way the model must be in range to the SHOOTING MODEL, so, you can't target anthing if you don't have a shooting model.

The unit isn't actually shooting yet. The proof of that in in step 3, Cboose ranged weapons. "if a model has severl weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit. Similarly, if a unit contains more than one model, they can shootat the same, or different targets as you choose.In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit's shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shoots against one target before moving on to the next."

They reference the shooting unit, but are saying the unit "can" shoot - meaning it hasn't already started shooting yet.

The next paragraph for step 3, Number of Attacks, starts "Earch time a model shoots a renaged weapon, it will make a a number of attacks. You roll one dice for each attack being made."

Sound like definite evidence for the unit shooting being when you roll attacks, which is step 4.

Actually, the clause you are referring to is not "they can shoot" but "they can shoot at same or different targets". There's no option to not shoot, as stated in step 1: "‘Unless otherwise noted, each model in the unit attacks
with all of the ranged weapons it is armed with". The sentence you are referring to only specifies that you don't have to shoot all weapons to the same target, not that you can choose to shoot or not. Once you select a unit to shoot, you have to shoot with all of their weapons (except those that can only be used once per battle).

Nothing of what step 3 says contradicts the fact that the unit starts shooting in step 2. Of course the units shoots in step 3, that does not mean they don't shoot in step 2 and 4 too, they are all part of the same action, and all three steps indicate that the unit is "shooting" (step 4 actually says nothing about the unit shooting, but cover rules talk about "shooting attacks", so that should count). They start shooting in step 2, and end in step 4, so, "before shooting" would be any time before step 2, or before step 1, actually, since the unit becomes a "shooting unit" when you choose to shoot with it. In fact, it does not even have to be just before they shoot, you can use the stratagem, shoot with a bunch of other units, and then shoot with the unit you used your stratagem on, since the stratagem effect lasts for the entire phase.

Seizeman wrote:

Actually, the clause you are referring to is not "they can shoot" but "they can shoot at same or different targets". There's no option to not shoot, as stated in step 1: "‘Unless otherwise noted, each model in the unit attacks
with all of the ranged weapons it is armed with". The sentence you are referring to only specifies that you don't have to shoot all weapons to the same target, not that you can choose to shoot or not. Once you select a unit to shoot, you have to shoot with all of their weapons (except those that can only be used once per battle).

That statement misses the entire point of what I was saying - "can shoot" whether at single or multiple targets means they haven't already shot yet. The shooting is in the future.

Seizeman wrote:
Nothing of what step 3 says contradicts the fact that the unit starts shooting in step 2. Of course the units shoots in step 3, that does not mean they don't shoot in step 2 and 4 too, they are all part of the same action, and all three steps indicate that the unit is "shooting" (step 4 actually says nothing about the unit shooting, but cover rules talk about "shooting attacks", so that should count). They start shooting in step 2, and end in step 4, so, "before shooting" would be any time before step 2, or before step 1, actually, since the unit becomes a "shooting unit" when you choose to shoot with it. In fact, it does not even have to be just before they shoot, you can use the stratagem, shoot with a bunch of other units, and then shoot with the unit you used your stratagem on, since the stratagem effect lasts for the entire phase.

Nonsense. Step 3 clearly indicates that the unit hasn't shot yet, even though the shooting unit has been declared. There's a difference between declaring a unit is going to shoot in the very near future, and the unit actually shooting. :"In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit's shots before the dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next target." How you will be splitting the shots means you haven't shot yet. This indicates you aren't actually shooting until you are resolving the shots. That's step 4.

Remember, the stratagem said "Orks shooting in the shooting phase". From what is said in step 3, the orks aren't actually shooting until the Resolve Shooting step. The stratagem did not say "before an Ork unit is selected to shoot in the Shooting Phase.