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Since the game includes models from the size of birds and nurglings up to titans the current rules set has issues.
I propose scaling.
1 critter/swarms
2 man sized
3 orgyn sized
4 dread
5 Vehicle
6 Tank
7 Super heavy
if Attacker is higher scale than target by scale
one level = + 1 to hit and wound roll
two level = +2 to wound roll
Three levels or more -1 to hit and auto wound
If Target is higher scale than attacker by scale
one level= -1 to wound
two levels wound only on a natural 6
three levels or more = can not wound
Some weapons will classify has higher scale than they are.
example lascanon counts as vehicle scale even if infantry carried.
Certain units/equipment can be scaled as needed to balance things out.
What do you all think?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/23 20:39:31
Have played 40k since they were called the Imperial Army. 6k IG 10k Nids 2k GSC
Well firstly you need to clarify the difference between Dreadnought scale and vehicle scale as they have both keywords.
Secondly you're adding way too many layers to this. Go for something simpler like small > medium > large.
Then the larger you are go for +1 to hit, the smaller you are go for +1 to wound (than the firing model/unit). At that point you're not adding needless complexity.
Certain units should get minor tweaks (aircraft are generally larger than infantry but possibly could get an extension to the supersonic rule that requires AA weapons / vehicles so they don't get there inherent -1 to-hit effectively negated because a grot is shooting at it, etc)
At which point you're adding needless complexity to adapt to a new hitting and wounding system on top of the one that's already there. It may seem simple to you but there will be people that will be confused by having to lookup unit size, different from unit keyword, comparing to the target/targeting unit, calculating the bonus on top of the base values (and remember if you're applying this to melee as well that means you need to take in all the extra steps for calculating weapon strength before you even get to this point), then how it will interact with stratagems, etc.
And that's not even getting into the first pass that a Knight that targets anything of 'Dreadnought' size or smaller is automatically wounding it (because you're going to have to assign Super-Heavy to the Super-Heavies), which is a whole other balancing issue to consider. Like the Valiant with the auto-hitting flame weapon not having to roll to-wound for example.
My advice: make the scale of items simpler (you don't need 7 scale values here), make the bonus simpler (I should not be looking at a 2/3 step jump bonus/penalty on top of what I'm already attempting to calculate, nothing should be auto-wounding), do minor adjustments as opposed to rewriting lots of equipment (extra line for Supersonic is fine, rewriting weapon profiles/adding weapons to work around or add to a unit is more than you need for something like this).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/23 21:57:49
This has come up over the editions but people seem stubbornly stuck on 'true line of sight', which IMO causes more and worse problems than an abstract size system.
They had something like this back in 4th, but it didn't survive.
I would probably count it as cover rather than modifiers to wound as their stats already factor in their strength at that size.
I would be dropping the current LoS rules entirely and just going with a size scale to determine if you can see things or not, regardless of whether there's a bonus to your attacks.
I feel like the various to-wound modifiers you're proposing are redundant with the existing Strength and Toughness stats and potentially create new problems. An imperial knight can carry a heavy stubber (strength 4 like many small arms). Under your proposal, it would go from wounding a marine half the time to wounding him automatically. This would effectively remove design space. You could make an exception saying that a heavy stubber counts as a smaller size, but then you'd be writing extra rules to end up roughly where you started.
There might be something to to-hit modifiers based on size, but I feel like you'd have to be careful there. It probably makes sense for an imperial knight to take a penalty when small infantry unit, and it probably makes sense for infantry to have an easier time hitting the walker the size of a city block. I'm not a big fan of superheavies, so a rule that makes them less effective against the small units that my preferred form of 40k is centered around has an appeal, but making infantry better at killing superheavies right back seems difficult to balance. Plus, people who worry about lasguns killing land raiders probably don't like the idea of those lasguns getting an accuracy boost.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
I agree that giving units bonuses to wound smaller units due to their physical size isn't the best way to go, as people have said, the weapons they have use S vs T, and strong weapons hurt weak units, as they should. An ork stompa with a grot blasta shouldn't somehow auto-wound a wraithguard just because the model firing it is big!
prefer the idea of size giving modifiers to hit, like so:
(I class titans and superheavies as different, as a reaver titan or a gargantuan squiggoth is clearly a larger target than a baneblade!)
if you are shooting a size class within 1 of yourself, you hit normally if you shoot something 2 sizes or more lower than you, you get -1 to hit if you shoot something 2 sizes or more higher than you, then you get +1 to hit
Cover:
Cover has sizes as well, of the same scale.
If a unit is in the cover, it counts the cover as being of equal size to itself and any attacker for the purposes of shooting, unless it would otherwise be smaller than itself. This is only true of this piece of cover, and any intervening cover which this unit is not occupying is treated normally.
Use the largest size between the attacker and defender (EG if a titan (size 5) shoots infantry (size 2) then use size 5 for this):
If the cover is larger than this size, then the attacker cannot draw line of sight (note that if either party is in the cover then it counts as equal, as per above and below).
If the cover is equal to this size, then the attack is performed as normal, and the defender gets +1 to saves due to cover.
If the cover is smaller than this size, then the attack is performed as normal.
Going to Ground:
a unit of infantry can go to ground - they drop one size, but cannot move this turn (move,advance, charge, or by any means be anywhere on the battlefield other than where they currently are)
Weapon Sizes:
There is potential for weapons to have sizes as well - thus the heavy stubber on a leman russ might still hit infantry, while its Vanquisher Cannon might not do as well. Lascannons might be made size 3, so they struggle to hit tiny models, but hit superheavies and titans well.
This would mean:
Infantry cannot shoot through ruins, but can shoot into or out of them, unless they are shooting something larger than the ruins.
Titans can tower over smaller terrain and get clear shots, but also offer clear shots at them
a dreadnought stomping through a beautiful meadow of ankle high grass (no doubt singing "the hills are alive...") will not get cover.
Cover would depend on the size of the units involved To hit modifiers would depend on the size of the weapon and the target.
EG a knight (size 5) can tower over ruins (size 3) and fire heavy stubbers (size 2) at infantry (size 2) effectively, but their main gun (size 5) will suffer -1 to hit, because infantry are small. Infantry, on the other hand, can return fire with a lascannon (size 3) and get +1 to hit due to the size of the target. (size 5).
If the knight was firing over a bastion (size 5) then both the infantry and the knight would have cover from this exchange.
If the infantry were in some ruins (size 3) they can shoot out and be shot, unless another piece of terrain is in the way, and is larger than them, which leads me to add:
Elevated Positions & Trenches Units whose bases are higher than the base of a terrain feature count that feature as 1 size smaller for the purposes of cover. Units whose bases are lower than the base of a terrain feature treat that feature as 1 size larger for the purposes of cover.
Other Units Any shots which draw line of sight through any unit (friend or foe) treat that unit as a terrain feature of its size.
Thus you cannot shoot through a rhino, unless you are as tall or taller!
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/04/24 15:09:58
12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!
some bloke wrote: I agree that giving units bonuses to wound smaller units due to their physical size isn't the best way to go, as people have said, the weapons they have use S vs T, and strong weapons hurt weak units, as they should. An ork stompa with a grot blasta shouldn't somehow auto-wound a wraithguard just because the model firing it is big!
prefer the idea of size giving modifiers to hit, like so:
(I class titans and superheavies as different, as a reaver titan or a gargantuan squiggoth is clearly a larger target than a baneblade!)
if you are shooting a size class within 1 of yourself, you hit normally
if you shoot something 2 sizes or more lower than you, you get -1 to hit
if you shoot something 2 sizes or more higher than you, then you get +1 to hit
Cover:
Cover has sizes as well, of the same scale.
If a unit is in the cover, it counts the cover as being of equal size to itself and any attacker for the purposes of shooting, unless it would otherwise be smaller than itself. This is only true of this piece of cover, and any intervening cover which this unit is not occupying is treated normally.
Use the largest size between the attacker and defender (EG if a titan (size 5) shoots infantry (size 2) then use size 5 for this):
If the cover is larger than this size, then the attacker cannot draw line of sight (note that if either party is in the cover then it counts as equal, as per above and below).
If the cover is equal to this size, then the attack is performed as normal, and the defender gets +1 to saves due to cover.
If the cover is smaller than this size, then the attack is performed as normal.
Going to Ground:
a unit of infantry can go to ground - they drop one size, but cannot move this turn (move,advance, charge, or by any means be anywhere on the battlefield other than where they currently are)
Weapon Sizes:
There is potential for weapons to have sizes as well - thus the heavy stubber on a leman russ might still hit infantry, while its Vanquisher Cannon might not do as well. Lascannons might be made size 3, so they struggle to hit tiny models, but hit superheavies and titans well.
This would mean:
Infantry cannot shoot through ruins, but can shoot into or out of them, unless they are shooting something larger than the ruins.
Titans can tower over smaller terrain and get clear shots, but also offer clear shots at them
a dreadnought stomping through a beautiful meadow of ankle high grass (no doubt singing "the hills are alive...") will not get cover.
Cover would depend on the size of the units involved
To hit modifiers would depend on the size of the weapon and the target.
EG a knight (size 5) can tower over ruins (size 3) and fire heavy stubbers (size 2) at infantry (size 2) effectively, but their main gun (size 5) will suffer -1 to hit, because infantry are small.
Infantry, on the other hand, can return fire with a lascannon (size 3) and get +1 to hit due to the size of the target. (size 5).
If the knight was firing over a bastion (size 5) then both the infantry and the knight would have cover from this exchange.
If the infantry were in some ruins (size 3) they can shoot out and be shot, unless another piece of terrain is in the way, and is larger than them, which leads me to add:
Elevated Positions & Trenches Units whose bases are higher than the base of a terrain feature count that feature as 1 size smaller for the purposes of cover. Units whose bases are lower than the base of a terrain feature treat that feature as 1 size larger for the purposes of cover.
Other Units Any shots which draw line of sight through any unit (friend or foe) treat that unit as a terrain feature of its size.
Thus you cannot shoot through a rhino, unless you are as tall or taller!
Quoted in full, for being an excellent suggestion.
I myself have suggested a 1-10 size stat before, found here. I feel like some ideas from my thread could be implemented, such as the ability to move through sufficiently smaller models or character blocking of only certain sizes, but I do like the simplicity of your idea, Some Bloke.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
I myself have suggested a 1-10 size stat before, found here. I feel like some ideas from my thread could be implemented, such as the ability to move through sufficiently smaller models or character blocking of only certain sizes, but I do like the simplicity of your idea, Some Bloke.
Thankyou! It seemed to almost write itself as I was going, it all seemed to fit!
It also has some interesting potentials for random-style bits, for example:
Kustom Force wall projektas
A unit of 2-3 little ork buggies which must stay within 4" of one another. They project an area of cover between their bases, which has a random size of D6-1, rolled each turn. On a 1, the unit suffers 1 mortal wound and no cover is made.
So you might roll high and get an almighty wall, which neither of you can shoot through (unless the buggies die, who count as being simply in cover) or you might roll a 1 and get nothing but hurt.
The roll would be at the end of your movement phase, so you set up the wall, switch it on and then use it to protect one flank of your army, perhaps. The buggies would need to be fairly weak, but a somewhat annoying distraction which works both ways!
It being a 1-6 scale seems right for a game based on a D6. Units like Hive Guard, for example, could stop ignoring cover completely, and instead can shoot any unit in range, provided they roll equal to or higher than the largest size of intervening cover (as well as rolling high enough to hit). Thus big cover will prove more of a hindrance than light cover, but you'll never be perfectly safe!
12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!
I think I like the gist of that suggestion, some_bloke. I'm slightly confused by some of the wording on the cover rules (a piece of terrain as big as a knight is treated as infantry size when occupied by infantry if I read that right?), but I like the suggestion on the whole.
It makes superheavies slightly easier for non-super heavies to deal with, makes terrain much more useful and interesting, and offers infantry protection against things like battlecannons (which I assume would be size 4ish).
I'm curious about how you'd handle "all purpose" weapons whose size might be ambiguous. For instance, what size is a plasma obliterator's gun? It seems like it ought to be pretty good at hurting infantry, but it would probably be throwing around a pie plate template if templates were still a thing.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
Wyldhunt wrote: I think I like the gist of that suggestion, some_bloke. I'm slightly confused by some of the wording on the cover rules (a piece of terrain as big as a knight is treated as infantry size when occupied by infantry if I read that right?), but I like the suggestion on the whole.
It makes superheavies slightly easier for non-super heavies to deal with, makes terrain much more useful and interesting, and offers infantry protection against things like battlecannons (which I assume would be size 4ish).
I'm curious about how you'd handle "all purpose" weapons whose size might be ambiguous. For instance, what size is a plasma obliterator's gun? It seems like it ought to be pretty good at hurting infantry, but it would probably be throwing around a pie plate template if templates were still a thing.
Cover is only treated as the same size as the occupying unit if said unit is involved in the attack - EG if the unit in cover is shooting or being shot, the cover is treated as the same size as that unit, thus a unit in cover can always shoot out or be shot in to, but if another unit is being shot through the cover, the cover uses its own size.
So in your example, if a unit of infantry is in a knight-size piece of cover, any units shooting it or that it shoots will treat it as the same size as the infantry (thus they can shoot) but any units outside the cover shooting through it will treat it as the size of a knight.
batlacannons would be size 4, plasma obliterators would probably be size 3. Bear in mind that the most effective guns will be small size and big punch - a meltagun will be size 2, as t's a small, portable gun, but it will get +1 to hit anything bigger than a walker, and when it does hit it does so like a freight train. made of lava. so more effective than, say, a lascannon, which would be size 3 (logically larger than a meltagun) and so struggles to hit little things (spartan laser vs the flood) but hits infantry to tanks normally and superheavies+ with +1 to hit.
12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!
1 - Sub-Swarm (less than Ripper sized, maybe an Infestation Node can use this)
2 - Swarm (Ripper, Scarab)
3 - Larger Swarm (Tau Drones)
4 - Man (Guardsman)
5 - Larger than Man (Gaunts, Genestealers)
6 - Superhuman (Marines)
7 - Trans Superhuman (Primaris)
8 - Bikes (Marine Bikes
9 - Small Walkers (Sentinels, XV-8 Battlesuits)
10 - Dreadnoughts (not larger ones)
11 - Larger Dreadnoughts (not Venerable/Basic)
12 - Small Vehicles (Vyper)
13 - Medium Vehicles (Taurox, Armigier)
14 - Large Vehicles (Goliath Truck, Rhino, Razorback)
15 - Light Tanks (Chimera, Predator)
16 - Medium Tanks (LRBT)
17 - Knights (Basic Knights)
18 - Heavy Tanks (Macharius, Malcador)
19 - Large Knights (not basic ones)
20 - Super Heavy Tanks (Baneblade, Shadowsword)
21+ Titan Class
I think that this is way, way overboard. For starters:
Gaunts are about the same size as a guardsman.
Genestealers are the same size as marines
Marines and numarines are not that much different in size (despite what the operating manual of a rhino might say), certainly not enough to warrant a different size class in a scale from nurgling to titan!
a Vyper is about the same size as a Dreadnaught
A Rhino and a Chimera are essentially the same size. Moreso the Rhino and Predator, which use the same chassis!
A leman russ is barely larger than a chimera.
A Knight is significantly larger than a landraider! Particularly when presenting a target!
This is adding an unnecessary amount of scale to the proceedings. At this point, you may as well just measure the height of the attacker, target and intervening cover, and use this to work it out!
alextroy wrote: I don't see why we need all these sizes. Don't we already have plenty of 'sizes' in the keywords?
Swarm
Infantry
Beast
Bike
Vehicle
Monster
Battlesuit
Titanic
Do we really need to tell the size difference between a Grot, a Guardsmen, and a Terminator?
This is probably the best way to standardize it for ease of introduction. I would say that, as a general rule:
Size 1: Swarms & notably small units (grots)
Size 2: Infantry
Size 3: Bikes and Beasts
Size 4: Monsters & Walkers (They tend to be in-between)
Size 5: Vehicles & Bigger battlesuits (riptide, wraithknight)
Size 6: Titanic
I would definitely try to keep it so that the statistic is added so that it's separate, as it is'nt universal - Vypers are smaller than Landraiders, for example. That, you you add a "light" rule to these units which makes them count as a size smaller, and "Heavy" to units who should be one size larger.
I could justify things like primarchs, Meganobs, aggressors, 'nid warriors, wraithguard & ogryns being "heavy", and counting as biker/beast size. Grots, vypers, scout sentinels, etc would be light.
As a rule, it should be fairly intuitive as to the size of units. looks like a man could punt it = size 1, looks like a man = size 2, looks like the hulk = size 3, looks like a dreadnaught = size 4, etc.
12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!
alextroy wrote: I don't see why we need all these sizes. Don't we already have plenty of 'sizes' in the keywords?
Swarm
Infantry
Beast
Bike
Vehicle
Monster
Battlesuit
Titanic
Do we really need to tell the size difference between a Grot, a Guardsmen, and a Terminator?
Yes, as it affects transport capacity - i.e., Terminators counting as two models for troop transport, Bikes as 3 (for Corvus), Walkers as 3 models (for Storm Raven). In the 40K alternative I've been writing up, size is used to count how many/big things will fit (i.e., transported objects must be 2 sizes smaller or more, your Size indicates how many transport slots you take up).
alextroy wrote: I don't see why we need all these sizes. Don't we already have plenty of 'sizes' in the keywords?
Swarm
Infantry
Beast
Bike
Vehicle
Monster
Battlesuit
Titanic
Do we really need to tell the size difference between a Grot, a Guardsmen, and a Terminator?
Yes, as it affects transport capacity - i.e., Terminators counting as two models for troop transport, Bikes as 3 (for Corvus), Walkers as 3 models (for Storm Raven). In the 40K alternative I've been writing up, size is used to count how many/big things will fit (i.e., transported objects must be 2 sizes smaller or more, your Size indicates how many transport slots you take up).
alextroy wrote: Sounds like lots of added complexity for little gain.
^ this.
In the scale of 40k, a terminator isn't any more difficult to hit than a space marine - they are, perhaps, a little bulkier, and they will take up more space in a transport, but stand a space marine, a terminator and a knight next to each other and it's fair to say the 2 infantry models are the same size.
If you break infantry into gretchin<guardsman><space marine><terminator><primaris><aggressor><ogryn><wraithguard then how to you decide what can hit what easily? will Ogryns struggle to hit gretchin compared with guardsmen? is a terminator going to be less effective at shooting a nurgling than a space marine?
What happens if they release a new model which is a little bigger than a primaris marine but smaller than the ogryn? Will you shuffle all the sizes around to suit?
It might seem like a more realistic approach, but it will add excessive complexity to the game. You say a walker counts as 3 models, as does a bike - but a bike is definitely smaller than a dreadnaught.
Unit type is going to be the easiest and smoothest way of rolling this out. >
12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!
If a unit is in the cover, it counts the cover as being of equal size to itself and any attacker for the purposes of shooting, unless it would otherwise be smaller than itself. This is only true of this piece of cover, and any intervening cover which this unit is not occupying is treated normally.
Use the largest size between the attacker and defender (EG if a titan (size 5) shoots infantry (size 2) then use size 5 for this):
If the cover is larger than this size, then the attacker cannot draw line of sight (note that if either party is in the cover then it counts as equal, as per above and below).
If the cover is equal to this size, then the attack is performed as normal, and the defender gets +1 to saves due to cover.
If the cover is smaller than this size, then the attack is performed as normal.
I'd revise it so that:
1. line laser is required tool for gaming
2. LOS is drawn when there is a base to base line drawn between the attacker & target. (it literally becomes 'line' of sight)
3. Attacker suffers -hit penalty when there are any intervening units along the LOS. Penalties do not stack for multiple intervening units.
4. A unit can only intervene if its size is greater than or not smaller than 1 (i.e. walker cannot intervene for superheavy, but it does for tanks)
If a unit is in the cover, it counts the cover as being of equal size to itself and any attacker for the purposes of shooting, unless it would otherwise be smaller than itself. This is only true of this piece of cover, and any intervening cover which this unit is not occupying is treated normally.
Use the largest size between the attacker and defender (EG if a titan (size 5) shoots infantry (size 2) then use size 5 for this):
If the cover is larger than this size, then the attacker cannot draw line of sight (note that if either party is in the cover then it counts as equal, as per above and below).
If the cover is equal to this size, then the attack is performed as normal, and the defender gets +1 to saves due to cover.
If the cover is smaller than this size, then the attack is performed as normal.
I'd revise it so that:
1. line laser is required tool for gaming
2. LOS is drawn when there is a base to base line drawn between the attacker & target. (it literally becomes 'line' of sight)
3. Attacker suffers -hit penalty when there are any intervening units along the LOS. Penalties do not stack for multiple intervening units.
4. A unit can only intervene if its size is greater than or not smaller than 1 (i.e. walker cannot intervene for superheavy, but it does for tanks)
issues I can see for this:
1: Ripper swarms shooting through a baneblade with only -1 to hit
2: only -1 to hit no matter what, with your ruling (I am assuming that you are keeping the idea for terrain to have sizes, and are saying that it is treated as a unit of its size?)
Are you concerned that cover/intervening units of 1 size lower wouldn't offer cover? that's easily fixed with minor tweaks to my suggestion.
12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!
As long as GW keeps away from the mess of 7E with "Bulky", "Very Bulky", "Extremely Bulky", "Even Bulkier", "Monster", "Titanic" and the other craziness, it should work. Personally, I'd prefer a straight up numeric system that directly translates to how many slots the model takes up in a transport.
Also, having a set size scale would be more beneficial than the "Characters can't be targeted unless they have 9 wounds or more because we decided to use wounds to represent bulk, not considering we also use it to represent heroic plot armor"
Stormonu wrote: As long as GW keeps away from the mess of 7E with "Bulky", "Very Bulky", "Extremely Bulky", "Even Bulkier", "Monster", "Titanic" and the other craziness, it should work. Personally, I'd prefer a straight up numeric system that directly translates to how many slots the model takes up in a transport.
Also, having a set size scale would be more beneficial than the "Characters can't be targeted unless they have 9 wounds or more because we decided to use wounds to represent bulk, not considering we also use it to represent heroic plot armor"
character targeting is an entirely different issue - and as you say, would easily be solved by allowing wounds to be irrelevant and requiring units of the same size or larger to protect the characters (you might not shoot a warboss if boys are closer, but ghazzy, well, yeah of course you would!)
so a terminator lord might have umpteen wounds, but it still he same size (and thus as targetable) as a terminator with 2 wounds.
My concern with tying size directly with transport capacity is that it will put a large scale in infantry and less of a scale in vehicles. Do you apply the size difference between a terminator and a space marine when seeing how many sizes apart vehicles are? Assuming that a terminator is ~0.5cm taller/broader than a marine, and that a monolith is what, 10cm longer, 15cm wider and 20cm taller? that's average of 15cm, which would be 30 size-groups bigger than a rhino, if a terminator is 1 size-group bigger than a marine.
And if you don't? then you need to think how the rules will work if you have 6 size classes of troops and 3 size classes of vehicle. when does it become difficult to hit things? when does it become easy? to stop grots having bonuses to hit ogryns, then it needs to be 6 size classes, but then ogryns have no benefits for hitting tanks.
It's easy enough to slap 20 size-classes on the game, but how do they interact with one another? how much bigger or smaller must a unit to be to become easier or harder to hit?
12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!
If a unit is in the cover, it counts the cover as being of equal size to itself and any attacker for the purposes of shooting, unless it would otherwise be smaller than itself. This is only true of this piece of cover, and any intervening cover which this unit is not occupying is treated normally.
Use the largest size between the attacker and defender (EG if a titan (size 5) shoots infantry (size 2) then use size 5 for this):
If the cover is larger than this size, then the attacker cannot draw line of sight (note that if either party is in the cover then it counts as equal, as per above and below).
If the cover is equal to this size, then the attack is performed as normal, and the defender gets +1 to saves due to cover.
If the cover is smaller than this size, then the attack is performed as normal.
I'd revise it so that:
1. line laser is required tool for gaming
2. LOS is drawn when there is a base to base line drawn between the attacker & target. (it literally becomes 'line' of sight)
3. Attacker suffers -hit penalty when there are any intervening units along the LOS. Penalties do not stack for multiple intervening units.
4. A unit can only intervene if its size is greater than or not smaller than 1 (i.e. walker cannot intervene for superheavy, but it does for tanks)
issues I can see for this:
1: Ripper swarms shooting through a baneblade with only -1 to hit
2: only -1 to hit no matter what, with your ruling (I am assuming that you are keeping the idea for terrain to have sizes, and are saying that it is treated as a unit of its size?)
Are you concerned that cover/intervening units of 1 size lower wouldn't offer cover? that's easily fixed with minor tweaks to my suggestion.
No, my concern is more regarding granting cover as a function of intervening.
I think cover should be strictly be based on abilities/terrain.
For what it's worth, giving bigger units ability to "intervene better" and disallow LOS to be drawn through will have disastrous effects.
Also, allowing stacking of negative hit modifiers will have disastrous results within the given mechanics.
If a unit is in the cover, it counts the cover as being of equal size to itself and any attacker for the purposes of shooting, unless it would otherwise be smaller than itself. This is only true of this piece of cover, and any intervening cover which this unit is not occupying is treated normally.
Use the largest size between the attacker and defender (EG if a titan (size 5) shoots infantry (size 2) then use size 5 for this):
If the cover is larger than this size, then the attacker cannot draw line of sight (note that if either party is in the cover then it counts as equal, as per above and below).
If the cover is equal to this size, then the attack is performed as normal, and the defender gets +1 to saves due to cover.
If the cover is smaller than this size, then the attack is performed as normal.
I'd revise it so that:
1. line laser is required tool for gaming
2. LOS is drawn when there is a base to base line drawn between the attacker & target. (it literally becomes 'line' of sight)
3. Attacker suffers -hit penalty when there are any intervening units along the LOS. Penalties do not stack for multiple intervening units.
4. A unit can only intervene if its size is greater than or not smaller than 1 (i.e. walker cannot intervene for superheavy, but it does for tanks)
issues I can see for this:
1: Ripper swarms shooting through a baneblade with only -1 to hit
2: only -1 to hit no matter what, with your ruling (I am assuming that you are keeping the idea for terrain to have sizes, and are saying that it is treated as a unit of its size?)
Are you concerned that cover/intervening units of 1 size lower wouldn't offer cover? that's easily fixed with minor tweaks to my suggestion.
No, my concern is more regarding granting cover as a function of intervening.
I think cover should be strictly be based on abilities/terrain.
For what it's worth, giving bigger units ability to "intervene better" and disallow LOS to be drawn through will have disastrous effects.
Also, allowing stacking of negative hit modifiers will have disastrous results within the given mechanics.
not sure if allowing larger units to block LOS will really be "disasterous" - the only way they can block LOS is if thye are larger than both the target and the firing model, and if that's the case, it blcks bot ways.
So you might get a list of footslogging CC masked by vehicles - that's a tactic, and it'll be nice to be able to use them again!
12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!
If a unit is in the cover, it counts the cover as being of equal size to itself and any attacker for the purposes of shooting, unless it would otherwise be smaller than itself. This is only true of this piece of cover, and any intervening cover which this unit is not occupying is treated normally.
Use the largest size between the attacker and defender (EG if a titan (size 5) shoots infantry (size 2) then use size 5 for this):
If the cover is larger than this size, then the attacker cannot draw line of sight (note that if either party is in the cover then it counts as equal, as per above and below).
If the cover is equal to this size, then the attack is performed as normal, and the defender gets +1 to saves due to cover.
If the cover is smaller than this size, then the attack is performed as normal.
I'd revise it so that:
1. line laser is required tool for gaming 2. LOS is drawn when there is a base to base line drawn between the attacker & target. (it literally becomes 'line' of sight) 3. Attacker suffers -hit penalty when there are any intervening units along the LOS. Penalties do not stack for multiple intervening units. 4. A unit can only intervene if its size is greater than or not smaller than 1 (i.e. walker cannot intervene for superheavy, but it does for tanks)
issues I can see for this:
1: Ripper swarms shooting through a baneblade with only -1 to hit 2: only -1 to hit no matter what, with your ruling (I am assuming that you are keeping the idea for terrain to have sizes, and are saying that it is treated as a unit of its size?)
Are you concerned that cover/intervening units of 1 size lower wouldn't offer cover? that's easily fixed with minor tweaks to my suggestion.
No, my concern is more regarding granting cover as a function of intervening.
I think cover should be strictly be based on abilities/terrain.
For what it's worth, giving bigger units ability to "intervene better" and disallow LOS to be drawn through will have disastrous effects.
Also, allowing stacking of negative hit modifiers will have disastrous results within the given mechanics.
not sure if allowing larger units to block LOS will really be "disasterous" - the only way they can block LOS is if thye are larger than both the target and the firing model, and if that's the case, it blcks bot ways.
So you might get a list of footslogging CC masked by vehicles - that's a tactic, and it'll be nice to be able to use them again!
So how do you propose FLY keyword fit into this system?
Do you propose units block LOS for friendlies as well?
Snipers? do their LOS also get blocked?
Take for example, scout bikes with "Bike" keyword can create mobile defense line with length of 70mm x 3, 16" M for just 69 pts that blocks LOS against friendly infantry & swarm units against all enemy infantries & swarms (i.e. havocs/devs won't be able to shoot through the bikers).
On the other side of the spectrum, vehicles (categorized as 'tanks' in your size list) are immune from LOS blocking unless it's a baneblade or bigger. Then, a knights list is always blocking LOS and never being blocked.
It's wonky IMO. It'll cause a huge rule bloat with SSF's in order to take all the edge case scenarios into consideration.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/06 20:49:41
So how do you propose FLY keyword fit into this system?
Fair to say that if you're not actually in cover, Flying units (as in, Fliers, not hover-tanks) can shoot you clearly.
Do you propose units block LOS for friendlies as well?
Yeah, I see no reason why they wouldn't. Moreso, in fact, as you would hesitate to actually shoot through them! Though ruleswise, yes, all units & cover are treated the same for LOS (except fliers, which you can shoot past)
Snipers? do their LOS also get blocked?
why wouldn't they? a sniper rifle doesn't let you shoot through a tank, or a wall. I know ruins currently allow anyone to shoot through (chances of not having "true LOS" are so slim with everyone waving their swords around), but this will make positioning more important, and most snipers can infiltrate or deepstrike, so this becomes more useful.
Take for example, scout bikes with "Bike" keyword can create mobile defense line with length of 70mm x 3, 16" M for just 69 pts that blocks LOS against friendly infantry & swarm units against all enemy infantries & swarms (i.e. havocs/devs won't be able to shoot through the bikers).
Well, one part was for you to treat yourself as larger if off the ground, and most devastators go on floor 2 of ruins, so that will help. And yes, you can screen your units with bigger units - and yes, people will have to shoot your bikers first, and yes, that means your CC charging army will stand a better chance of making it to combat, meaning turn 1 alpha-strikes are less of a game-plan. I'm failing to see the downside.
On the other side of the spectrum, vehicles (categorized as 'tanks' in your size list) are immune from LOS blocking unless it's a baneblade or bigger. Then, a knights list is always blocking LOS and never being blocked.
Terrain could easily be larger than a tank. I agree that a tank should block another tank, but then you get to the point where infantry block infantry, and then you get bubblewrapped death-stars again. It could be corrected by stating that >VEHICLES< count as 1 size larger than they are for the purposes of blocking LOS, so vehicles block other vehicles, but infantry don't block infantry.
It's wonky IMO. It'll cause a huge rule bloat with SSF's in order to take all the edge case scenarios into consideration.
It's not perfect - It was written by me, an amateur rules writer, in one go with limited time for consideration, based on what sounded right. However, it can be tweaked back into place by stating:
Vehicles count as 1 size larger than they are for blocking LOS (making transports more useful, which is good)
Fliers are not considered as obscuring units for determining line of sight, and always treat obscuring units & cover as a size lower than themselves and the target, unless the target is in cover.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Updated rule suggestion to clarify Fliers, friendly units and vehicles:
sizes:
Size 1: Swarms & notably small units (grots)
Size 2: Infantry
Size 3: Bikes and Beasts
Size 4: Monsters & Walkers (They tend to be in-between)
Size 5: Vehicles & Bigger battlesuits (riptides)
Size 6: Titanic
if you are shooting a size class within 1 of yourself, you hit normally
if you shoot something 2 sizes or more lower than you, you get -1 to hit
if you shoot something 2 sizes or more higher than you, then you get +1 to hit
Cover:
Cover has sizes as well, of the same scale. Intervening units (friend or foe) are treated as cover.
If a unit is in the cover, it counts the cover as being of equal size to itself and any attacker for the purposes of shooting, unless it would otherwise be smaller than itself. This is only true of this piece of cover, and any intervening cover which this unit is not occupying is treated normally.
Use the largest size between the attacker and defender (EG if a titan (size 5) shoots infantry (size 2) then use size 5 for this):
If the intervening cover is larger than this size, then the attacker cannot draw line of sight (note that if either party is in the cover then it counts as equal, as per above and below).
If the cover is equal to this size, then the attack is performed as normal, and the defender gets +1 to saves due to cover.
If the cover is smaller than this size, then the attack is performed as normal, with no benefit to saves.
Going to Ground:
a unit of infantry can go to ground - they drop one size, but cannot move this turn (move,advance, charge, or by any means be anywhere on the battlefield other than where they currently are)
Weapon Sizes:
There is potential for weapons to have sizes as well - thus the heavy stubber on a leman russ might still hit infantry, while its Vanquisher Cannon might not do as well. Lascannons might be made size 3, so they struggle to hit tiny models, but hit superheavies and titans well.
Cover & LOS would depend on the size of the units involved
To hit modifiers would depend on the size of the weapon and the target.
Elevated Positions & Trenches
Units whose bases are higher than the base of intervening cover or units treat them as 1 size smaller for the purposes of cover & LOS. Units whose bases are lower than the base of intervening cover or units treat them as 1 size larger for the purposes of cover.
Other Units
Any shots which draw line of sight through any unit (friend or foe) treat that unit as a terrain feature of its size.
Vehicles:
Any unit with the VEHICLE keyword is treated as 1 size larger than it is when it is an intervening unit.
Fliers:
Any unit with the >FLYER< unit type always considers intervening units and cover to be smaller than itself. As such, a unit will only get cover from a FLYER if it is actually in the terrain feature.
Interactions:
Infantry shooting infantry will do so normally.
Infantry can shoot into or out of ruins, but not through them, even if they can see their banner, sword or wings
Vehicles block line of sight to other vehicles, but not to titanic units
Snipers will have to pick their positions carefully, as they bloody well should do with their infiltrate rules.
Elevated positions will allow infantry to shoot over bikes and beasts, but not monsters & walkers (which are much less likely to be blocking LOS)
Units on a hill behind a ruin will treat the ruin as smaller, as will units shooting at them - stand on a hill, expect to get shot!
Tactics which will crop up:
1: Screening infantry with bikers (as brought up previously):
bikers wil lstop infantry shooting past, unless said infantry is higher than the bikers. It wil ldo nothing to stop bikers, walkers, monsters, vehicles or titans from shooting, however.
2: Screening with tanks:
Tanks can screen infantry, walkers etc, from anything shy of a superheavy, or a vehicle on a hill. Unfortunately, everything behind the tanks will also not be able to shoot, making it a 2-edged sword.
3: Ruins becoming line-of-sight blocking:
Isn't this great? you have to move to see things, and employ tactics to get lines of fire. It's almost like a war game...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/06 22:25:05
12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!
Cover has sizes as well, of the same scale. Intervening units (friend or foe) are treated as cover.
If a unit is in the cover, it counts the cover as being of equal size to itself and any attacker for the purposes of shooting, unless it would otherwise be smaller than itself. This is only true of this piece of cover, and any intervening cover which this unit is not occupying is treated normally.
Use the largest size between the attacker and defender (EG if a titan (size 5) shoots infantry (size 2) then use size 5 for this):
If the intervening cover is larger than this size, then the attacker cannot draw line of sight (note that if either party is in the cover then it counts as equal, as per above and below).
If the cover is equal to this size, then the attack is performed as normal, and the defender gets +1 to saves due to cover.
I think at this point you appear to have some unwritten rules concerning how to figure out which size category a piece of terrain is.
What size category is set of low walls (blocks line of sight fairly well, but may or may not be of inconsistent height)? What size category is a forest (doesn't block line of sight consistently, and likely to not be of consistent height)?
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You've also mentioned "intervening", especially in relation to elevation, without specifying what that means. For instance: "Any shots which draw line of sight through any unit (friend or foe) treat that unit as a terrain feature of its size."
Do you mean:
1. The line of sight passes (or would pass) through physical parts of the model.
2. The line of sight passes over (within some distance, presumably based on size categories) the base of a model.
3. Something else.
I mean, I've seen volume based systems referred to as "magic cylinders". If you're proposing "magic fencing", you need to define the height, width, and thickness of your fencing.
60PL 
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