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I think these proposals are needlessly complicated to be honest. The toughness and wounds of a unit already represent its size and the power of a weapon is represented by its str and damage.
These things compare nicely and give a good scale and feel for the vast majority of very diverse units the game has.
If you really felt the need I could see bringing in a +1 bonus to hit when shooting at super heavies (it must be easier to hit one of them than a gretchin) as this would be a simple and easy inclusion.
That said it would also warrant a points drop in those units which may not be desired as most superheavies are pretty balanced if very polarising and a hard skew build if taken in multiples,
Cover has sizes as well, of the same scale. Intervening units (friend or foe) are treated as cover.
If a unit is in the cover, it counts the cover as being of equal size to itself and any attacker for the purposes of shooting, unless it would otherwise be smaller than itself. This is only true of this piece of cover, and any intervening cover which this unit is not occupying is treated normally.
Use the largest size between the attacker and defender (EG if a titan (size 5) shoots infantry (size 2) then use size 5 for this):
If the intervening cover is larger than this size, then the attacker cannot draw line of sight (note that if either party is in the cover then it counts as equal, as per above and below).
If the cover is equal to this size, then the attack is performed as normal, and the defender gets +1 to saves due to cover.
I think at this point you appear to have some unwritten rules concerning how to figure out which size category a piece of terrain is.
What size category is set of low walls (blocks line of sight fairly well, but may or may not be of inconsistent height)? What size category is a forest (doesn't block line of sight consistently, and likely to not be of consistent height)?
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You've also mentioned "intervening", especially in relation to elevation, without specifying what that means. For instance: "Any shots which draw line of sight through any unit (friend or foe) treat that unit as a terrain feature of its size."
Do you mean:
1. The line of sight passes (or would pass) through physical parts of the model.
2. The line of sight passes over (within some distance, presumably based on size categories) the base of a model.
3. Something else.
I mean, I've seen volume based systems referred to as "magic cylinders". If you're proposing "magic fencing", you need to define the height, width, and thickness of your fencing.
I hadn't really decided on hard fast numbers for terrain sizes - I agree, it would need to be rigidly defined to avoid in-game squabbles.
"intervening" I would put as being if the line of sight (which goes from the center of the base of the attacker to the center of the base of the defender, or the center of the model when viewed from the top, if it doesn't have a base) travels over or through a unit or piece of terrain (IE if it goes between 2 models in the same unit, that unit is intervening)
Whilst it makes "sense" to measure line of sight from the weapon of a vehicle, it is better to have explicit and specific rules for the sake of the game. Especially if the terrain will either block it or not - mounting the gun 2 feet high won't make a difference.
As an idea of sizes:
Long grass etc; Size 1, gives cover to swarms but not to infantry or higher. Everyone can shoot through it, except swarms which are lower than the terrain.
Chest-high walls, Size 2. Gives cover to infantry, hides swarms from each other.
Walls above "average" head height, Size 3. Hides infantry and swarms from each other. gives cover to bikes & beasts.
Ruins, Size 4. Hides infantry, bikes, beasts, swarms, gives cover to walkers, monsters.
Bunkers, Size 5. gives vehicles cover, hides smaller units from one another
Bastions, size 6, gives titans cover, hides all non-titanic units from one another.
Fortress of redemption (tower), other huge features - Size 7, blocks all LOS, except for fliers and titans on hills.
I guess the trick would be to tie it to height, for any other scenery, so:
I'd like to try these rules at some point, once the lockdown is over (my gaming buddy is immuno-suppressed, and is quite rightly locked up tight!)
As for the added complication, it's not really about strength and toughness at all - it's about reducing the alpha-strike death of the game, and about making it more fun - there's nothing more eye-rolly than someone shooting the tip of the sword of your squad-leader and killing most of the squad. LOS rules are shoddy and badly done right now. making hard and fast rules for line of sight and what blocks what will make the game suddenly more tactical, rather than a leman russ unloading every gun at a supposedly hidden unit because the arse of the russ can see the tip of someones lovingly-converted sword-aloft figure through 2 small windows which line up "just so".
I hadn't really decided on hard fast numbers for terrain sizes - I agree, it would need to be rigidly defined to avoid in-game squabbles.
"intervening" I would put as being if the line of sight (which goes from the center of the base of the attacker to the center of the base of the defender, or the center of the model when viewed from the top, if it doesn't have a base) travels over or through a unit or piece of terrain (IE if it goes between 2 models in the same unit, that unit is intervening)
You're still not defining your terms. Here's part of the non-definition:
Put a Space Marine model on top of a three level ruin. Put an Ork model across the table on the second floor of a ruin. On the ground, in between the two models, put any model X. The line of sight from the Space Marine to the Ork goes "across" model X, even though no line from the Space Marine model (or its base) to the Ork Model (or its base) goes anywhere near model X. (Or it does, if model X is tall enough).
Here's the next problem:
Put a Space Marine model on the table. Six inches to the east, put a line of Grots, spaced four inches apart. Another six inches to the east, put a line of Orks on the table such that 8th edition line of sight from the Space Marine to the Ork model would be completely unobstructed. Those lines of sight pass through the space between the Grots. Given the range of poses that exist for Grots, how do you determine if line of sight from the Space Marine to the Orks passes through the Grots unit? Are you using tallest points of any model in the unit, some statutory height, tallest point of any two adjacent models, or what?
There's also the significant situation of:
- There are hills on the table. On top of one or more of the hills are forests. In particular, let's say that there are two 2" tall hills. In the valley between the hills there's a forest. On top of one of those hills, there's a second copy of that forest (it's a 3D printed forest, or trees from the model railroad section of a craft store, either way, it's two identical forest pieces). What size is the forest on the hill?
There's another important concern. Put an 8" tall tower in the middle of the table. Put some 4" walls in various locations on the table. Are you planning on letting physical geometry dictate what those 4" tall walls block models on top of the 8" tall tower from seeing? Or are you planning on letting the highest point on the table have line of sight to everything on the table, in spite of geometry?
You're still not defining your terms. Here's part of the non-definition:
Put a Space Marine model on top of a three level ruin. Put an Ork model across the table on the second floor of a ruin. On the ground, in between the two models, put any model X. The line of sight from the Space Marine to the Ork goes "across" model X, even though no line from the Space Marine model (or its base) to the Ork Model (or its base) goes anywhere near model X. (Or it does, if model X is tall enough).
Ok, that's a fair one. I think that perhaps I need more complex rules for the elevation of models!
Here's the next problem:
Put a Space Marine model on the table. Six inches to the east, put a line of Grots, spaced four inches apart. Another six inches to the east, put a line of Orks on the table such that 8th edition line of sight from the Space Marine to the Ork model would be completely unobstructed. Those lines of sight pass through the space between the Grots. Given the range of poses that exist for Grots, how do you determine if line of sight from the Space Marine to the Orks passes through the Grots unit? Are you using tallest points of any model in the unit, some statutory height, tallest point of any two adjacent models, or what?
I think I covered this - line of sight is taken from centre of base to centre of base. if that line passes through the unit of grots - over a base, or through their coherency gap - then they are intervening. However, grots are size 1, and orks size 2, so the orks will not get cover from this, nor would the marines. The height of the grot model wouldn't matter - units will have a specified size value, regardless of pose etc. - the heights>size thing I put up was for scenery.
There's also the significant situation of: - There are hills on the table. On top of one or more of the hills are forests. In particular, let's say that there are two 2" tall hills. In the valley between the hills there's a forest. On top of one of those hills, there's a second copy of that forest (it's a 3D printed forest, or trees from the model railroad section of a craft store, either way, it's two identical forest pieces). What size is the forest on the hill?
I also think I covered this one in my rules - it depends on the positions of the attacker & defender.
assuming the forest is size 3, for arguments sake:
If both units are on the hill shooting through the forest, then the forest is size 3 if one unit is below the forest and the other on the same level as the forest, then the forest is size 4 if one unit is above the forest (in the valley) and the other is on the same level, then it's size 2 If the units have both forests between them, and one is in the valley and the other on the hill, then the hill forest is size 4 as it is higher than an attacker/defender, and the valley forest is size 2 as it is lower than an attacker/defender, so the one used for cover is size 4. If either unit is in the forest then the forest is treated as the same size as the unit which occupies it (for shooting at or from that unit) unless the unit is size 4 or more
I do not cover what to do if the forest were halfway up the hill, and one unit is higher and the other lower - this is something I will need to address. Whether a unit is below the scenery or not depends on the height of the base compared with the base of the scenery - the height of the board.
There's another important concern. Put an 8" tall tower in the middle of the table. Put some 4" walls in various locations on the table. Are you planning on letting physical geometry dictate what those 4" tall walls block models on top of the 8" tall tower from seeing? Or are you planning on letting the highest point on the table have line of sight to everything on the table, in spite of geometry?
I definitely need to reconsider elevations - you've brought up a good one here.
For me to do: rewrite elevation- it currently doesn't work establish how to deal with cover when one unit is lower and the other higher
To this end:
Spoiler:
Updated rule suggestion to clarify elevation and multi-height cover interactions: (updated parts in bold)
sizes: Size 1: Swarms & notably small units (grots) Size 2: Infantry Size 3: Bikes and Beasts Size 4: Monsters & Walkers (They tend to be in-between) Size 5: Vehicles & Bigger battlesuits (riptides) Size 6: Titanic
using unmodified unit size only: if you are shooting a size class within 1 of yourself, you hit normally if you shoot something 2 sizes or more lower than you, you get -1 to hit if you shoot something 2 sizes or more higher than you, then you get +1 to hit
Cover:
Cover has sizes as well, of the same scale. Intervening units (friend or foe) are treated as cover.
Line of sight is measured from the center of the base (or the model, if it has no base) of the attacker to the center of the base (or model) of the target.
If a unit is in the cover, it counts the cover as being of equal size to itself and any attacker for the purposes of being shot, unless it would otherwise be smaller than itself. This is only true of this piece of cover, and any intervening cover which this unit is not occupying is treated normally. Units shooting out of cover ignore the cover which they are standing in completely - it will never give cover to the target or block line of sight for the unit inside it.
Multi-level cover: Some pieces of terrain (such as towers, walkways) have multiple levels for a model to stand on. Such pieces are Multi-Level cover and feature the following rules: - If a unit is on the ground floor of multi-level cover, then the cover is treated as being the same size as the unit for the purposes of cover, as normal - If a unit is on the first floor or higher (IE not on the ground floor) of Multi-Level cover then the unit is treated as being the same size as the cover for the purposes of cover & line of sight. Note: This is only for the purposes of line of sight, and not for determining if a unit should get a modifier when shooting at a unit - this always uses the unmodified size of the units involved!
This means that a unit of infantry (size 2) on the ground floor of a building (size 4) determine line of sight as a size 2 model. A unit on the first floor or higher of the building determine line of sight as a size 4 model, so can shoot over intervening infantry and bikes, and through monsters/walkers, granting cover. They can also be shot at, and as the building is the same size as them, they are granted cover. If they shoot at infantry, they do not get -1 to hit as they are size 2 shooting size 2 - only their unmodified size is used to determine if they modify their to hit rolls.
Use the largest size between the attacker and defender (EG if a titan (size 5) shoots infantry (size 2) then use size 5 for this):
If the intervening cover is larger than this size, then the attacker cannot draw line of sight (note that if either party is in the cover then it counts as equal, as per above and below, and units shooting out of cover ignore the cover in which they stand).
If the cover is equal to this size, then the attack is performed as normal, and the defender gets +1 to saves due to cover.
If the cover is smaller than this size, then the attack is performed as normal, with no benefit to saves.
Going to Ground: a unit of infantry can go to ground - they drop one size, but cannot move this turn (move,advance, charge, or by any means be anywhere on the battlefield other than where they currently are)
Weapon Sizes:
There is potential for weapons to have sizes as well - thus the heavy stubber on a leman russ might still hit infantry, while its Vanquisher Cannon might not do as well. Lascannons might be made size 3, so they struggle to hit tiny models, but hit superheavies and titans well.
Cover & LOS would depend on the size of the units involved To hit modifiers would depend on the size of the weapon and the target.
Elevated Positions & Trenches Units whose bases are higher than the base of intervening cover or units treat them as 1 size smaller for the purposes of cover & LOS. Units whose bases are lower than the base of intervening cover or units treat them as 1 size larger for the purposes of cover. These effects are cumulative, meaning that if the intervening cover/unit is lower than both the attacker and the defender, it is treated as 2 sizes smaller. If it is higher than both attacker and defender, then it is treated as 2 sizes larger. If it is higher than one but lower than the other, then the effects cancel out and it is treated as normal.
Other Units Any shots which draw line of sight through any unit (friend or foe) treat that unit as a terrain feature of its size. This includes the coherency gap between models in a unit.
Vehicles:
Any unit with the VEHICLE keyword is treated as 1 size larger than it is when it is an intervening unit.
Fliers:
Any unit with the >FLYER< unit type always considers intervening units and cover to be smaller than itself. As such, a unit will only get cover from a FLYER if it is actually in the terrain feature.
Interactions:
Infantry shooting infantry will do so normally. Infantry can shoot into or out of ruins, but not through them, even if they can see their banner, sword or wings Vehicles block line of sight to other vehicles, but not to titanic units Snipers will have to pick their positions carefully, as they bloody well should do with their infiltrate rules. Elevated positions will allow infantry to shoot over bikes and beasts, but not monsters & walkers (which are much less likely to be blocking LOS) Units on a hill behind a ruin will treat the ruin as smaller, as will units shooting at them - stand on a hill, expect to get shot! Units stood in ruins count as being as tall as the ruins, unless they are on the ground floor units shooting over other units when the attacker and target are above ground level will almost always be okay to do so (infantry on hills can shoot over size 4 units at other units on hills, units in ruins count as ruin-size for LOS, and are also elevated so count the units below as smaller!
Tactics which will crop up: 1: Screening infantry with bikers (as brought up previously): bikers wil lstop infantry shooting past, unless said infantry is higher than the bikers. It wil ldo nothing to stop bikers, walkers, monsters, vehicles or titans from shooting, however. 2: Screening with tanks: Tanks can screen infantry, walkers etc, from anything shy of a superheavy, or a vehicle on a hill. Unfortunately, everything behind the tanks will also not be able to shoot, making it a 2-edged sword. 3: Ruins becoming line-of-sight blocking: Isn't this great? you have to move to see things, and employ tactics to get lines of fire. It's almost like a war game... 4:Elevated positions will continue to be key to line of sight - moreso, now glimpses through windows don't cut it 5:getting the high ground will be key to beating screening efforts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/08 10:09:57
IMO the rules do not need to be more complicated.
They need to be (re)written to be intuitively functional.
Too many things are not covered by the stat line, and so extra rules are needed.
And fuzzy hand waving explanations of what abilities could be possibly covered by what stats.Do not help the players or the game play.
EG
What stat covers how hard the target is to hit at range?(To oppose the skill to hit targets at range , to get more intuitive results.)
Are units that are hard to hit in close combat always more likely to hit opponents in close combat?
Having 2 stats to resolve all to hit , to wound and to damage rolls.Would increase the range of results from the core game mechanics , allowing more diversity and intuitive game play.Without having to rely on pages and pages of extra rules with poor;y explained interactions...
I get GW are focused on selling minatures with hyperbolic appealing narrative.But perhaps some would like less fluff and more function in the rules writing?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/01 10:48:31
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