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Hi,
I'd appreciate any advice on the following list. This is pure Tzeentch Daemons, 1497pts, a Battalion and a Supreme Command Detachment for 9CP.

The intention is to keep the changecaster with the big blob of pink horrors, and the fluxmaster stays with the flamers, so they can both provide +1 strength and flickering flames when required.
I've tried to make my Warlord DP tough to take out by giving him the impossible robe and incorporeal form. The Changeling will stick near him to give him the 6+++ save too.

My first opponent with this lot is likely to be a craftworlds list made up of a Crimson Hunter, a Wraithlord, a Wave Serpent, the Avatar of Khaine, 1x Warlock, 1xFarseer, 6x Windriders,and a selection of units of rangers, guardian defenders, dire avengers and striking scorpions.

I think I need some higher-power shooting, so I've put in the 2 soulgrinders to give some of that. I've never used soulgrinders before, so not sure if they'll do the job. The other thought I had was to add more exalted flamers but they don't have the range of the Soulgrinders.

I own all of the miniatures in this list other than the Soulgrinders. And I also have another 10x Pink Horrors, 4x Blue Horrors and 3 Screamers available. I'm happy to buy some new stuff if required but want to keep this list pure Tzeentch Daemons. (I have started getting some thousand sons to go with these but that is for another day)

All advice gratefully received!


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

+ Configuration +

Chaos Allegiance: Tzeentch

+ HQ +

Changecaster: Staff of Change

Fluxmaster: Staff of Change

+ Troops +

Horrors
. Iridescent Horror
. 29x Pink Horror: 29x Coruscating flames

Horrors: 3x Blue Horror, 10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: 3x Blue Horror, 10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

+ Elites +

Flamers: Pyrocaster
. 5x Flamer: 5x Flickering flames

+ Heavy Support +

Burning Chariot

Soul Grinder: Mark of Tzeentch, Warpsword

Soul Grinder: Mark of Tzeentch, Warpsword

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

+ Configuration +

Chaos Allegiance: Tzeentch


+ HQ +

Daemon Prince of Chaos: Incorporeal Form, Malefic talon, The Impossible Robe, Warlord, Wings
. Tzeentch

Daemon Prince of Chaos: Hellforged sword, Wings
. Tzeentch

The Changeling

 TheHorror! wrote:
Hi,
I'd appreciate any advice on the following list. This is pure Tzeentch Daemons, 1497pts, a Battalion and a Supreme Command Detachment for 9CP.

The intention is to keep the changecaster with the big blob of pink horrors, and the fluxmaster stays with the flamers, so they can both provide +1 strength and flickering flames when required.
I've tried to make my Warlord DP tough to take out by giving him the impossible robe and incorporeal form. The Changeling will stick near him to give him the 6+++ save too.

My first opponent with this lot is likely to be a craftworlds list made up of a Crimson Hunter, a Wraithlord, a Wave Serpent, the Avatar of Khaine, 1x Warlock, 1xFarseer, 6x Windriders,and a selection of units of rangers, guardian defenders, dire avengers and striking scorpions.

I think I need some higher-power shooting, so I've put in the 2 soulgrinders to give some of that. I've never used soulgrinders before, so not sure if they'll do the job. The other thought I had was to add more exalted flamers but they don't have the range of the Soulgrinders.

I own all of the miniatures in this list other than the Soulgrinders. And I also have another 10x Pink Horrors, 4x Blue Horrors and 3 Screamers available. I'm happy to buy some new stuff if required but want to keep this list pure Tzeentch Daemons. (I have started getting some thousand sons to go with these but that is for another day)

All advice gratefully received!


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

+ Configuration +

Chaos Allegiance: Tzeentch

+ HQ +

Changecaster: Staff of Change

Fluxmaster: Staff of Change

+ Troops +

Horrors
. Iridescent Horror
. 29x Pink Horror: 29x Coruscating flames

Horrors: 3x Blue Horror, 10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: 3x Blue Horror, 10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

+ Elites +

Flamers: Pyrocaster
. 5x Flamer: 5x Flickering flames

+ Heavy Support +

Burning Chariot

Soul Grinder: Mark of Tzeentch, Warpsword

Soul Grinder: Mark of Tzeentch, Warpsword

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

+ Configuration +

Chaos Allegiance: Tzeentch


+ HQ +

Daemon Prince of Chaos: Incorporeal Form, Malefic talon, The Impossible Robe, Warlord, Wings
. Tzeentch

Daemon Prince of Chaos: Hellforged sword, Wings
. Tzeentch

The Changeling

Off the bat, I hate the name change to the heralds.
But now to the discussion on Tzeentch. You're still going to have a very strong army when it comes to shooting and the Chariot will do good work to be a distraction, while still laying down fire.

With the recent drop in the SGs price, they're much easier to field now. Which is a definite plus, but you may want to switch to the warp claw for the extra attacks. Seeing as they still drop to 5+ while moving, I suspect you're just going to be moving them up the field for melee anyway.

I ran across a similar list, but my opponent had switched out the SGs for two Giant Spawn and used a Fate skimmer to push up the back of the group.

He was running against my GKs at the time, so he was still fighting an uphill battle. But the Spawn did extremely well at soaking a ton of power weapon hits and one managed to reach it's titanic threshold. Had my Interceptors and Paladins not swept through his back line, as well as Draigo turning his DPs into paste. He would've faired much better than he did.

He did also use an Exalted Flamer with his elites. Because the Herald made one of it's flame attacks S10. Really helped him toast my transports.

Not sure how well this will help you. My best advice is to switch out the SGs sword with the claw, just for the extra boxing they can do. You're really going to want that against some of the newer melee bombs out there.

How are you going to hit anything with your soul grinders when the target is -1 or -2 to hit ? They hit on 4s. With -2 to hit they hit on 6s. When they move they suffer another -1 to hit, and when they get damaged their BS is 5+. Good luck rolling a 7 or 8 on a D6.

 p5freak wrote:
How are you going to hit anything with your soul grinders when the target is -1 or -2 to hit ? They hit on 4s. With -2 to hit they hit on 6s. When they move they suffer another -1 to hit, and when they get damaged their BS is 5+. Good luck rolling a 7 or 8 on a D6.

Does that decrease modifier still count in melee?
Because that would be the only saving grace, if it didn't.

Thanks both for the answers. Its really helpful to get some feedback on the soulgrinders in particular. My reasoning for putting them in the list was to get some ranged shooting to try and hit things like the Crimson Hunter, I also expect to be out-ranged by a lot of people. But all of that doesn't matter if I can't hit anything with them... I think the other use for them is as scary-looking targets to distract my opponent. The thought had occurred of summoning to get them in close to the enemy quick to get them into combat and to amplify the distraction aspect. For the combat aspect I take the point on swapping to the warpclaw.

But if not soulgrinders, then what about the alternatives? The exalted flamers seem cool, and for the price of two soulgrinders I could have 7 exalted flamers. They're great but not very long range (18" for the heavy shot, 12" pistol).

As distractions and combat threats go the giant chaos spawn seems interesting. Why am I allowed to put them in my army? I see them and the spined beast in battlescribe but neither appear in the daemons codex?

Lastly, what are people's thoughts on the lord of change? I love the model so will probably end up with one sooner or later.

Oborosen wrote:
Does that decrease modifier still count in melee?
Because that would be the only saving grace, if it didn't.

No, but you cant charge a flyer, like the crimson hunter, unless you have FLY.

TheHorror! wrote:Thanks both for the answers. Its really helpful to get some feedback on the soulgrinders in particular. My reasoning for putting them in the list was to get some ranged shooting to try and hit things like the Crimson Hunter, I also expect to be out-ranged by a lot of people. But all of that doesn't matter if I can't hit anything with them... I think the other use for them is as scary-looking targets to distract my opponent. The thought had occurred of summoning to get them in close to the enemy quick to get them into combat and to amplify the distraction aspect. For the combat aspect I take the point on swapping to the warpclaw.

But if not soulgrinders, then what about the alternatives? The exalted flamers seem cool, and for the price of two soulgrinders I could have 7 exalted flamers. They're great but not very long range (18" for the heavy shot, 12" pistol).

Daemons suck when it comes to long range shooting. Skull cannons are ok, they have 48" and hit on 3s.

TheHorror! wrote:
As distractions and combat threats go the giant chaos spawn seems interesting. Why am I allowed to put them in my army? I see them and the spined beast in battlescribe but neither appear in the daemons codex?

They are FW models.

I knew they were forge world models, although I don't think they are making them anymore. I guess I was really asking how do I know what I can put in a list, from all of the potential sources like forgeworld, the codex, anything in a Psychic Awakening (hoping for something in Engine War...), Chapter Approved... I guess the thing to do is to use Battlescribe as a reference for what's possible then search out the source material.

The skull canons are OK but I'm going to stick with trying to make the most of mono-Tzeentch.

Thanks for the replies :-)

Instead of two soul grinders, you could put in a lord of change with a rod of sorcery for long-distance smiting or baleful sword for melee, or Kairos Fateweaver, along with the Blue Scribes for psychic theft shenanigans.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Instead of two soul grinders, you could put in a lord of change with a rod of sorcery for long-distance smiting or baleful sword for melee, or Kairos Fateweaver, along with the Blue Scribes for psychic theft shenanigans.

Well Kairos did get cheaper with the new release and codex approved. So he may be able to at least fit him into an open slot.

Though that's going to make him the largest target on the board and orbital strikes are now more of a thing. Though the first Tau list something like that hits, is going to get about a dozen sources of special munitions up it's beak.

The only real choice is to run him as a unit, or as your warlord in the case of the extra CP he offers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheHorror! wrote:
I knew they were forge world models, although I don't think they are making them anymore. I guess I was really asking how do I know what I can put in a list, from all of the potential sources like forgeworld, the codex, anything in a Psychic Awakening (hoping for something in Engine War...), Chapter Approved... I guess the thing to do is to use Battlescribe as a reference for what's possible then search out the source material.

The skull canons are OK but I'm going to stick with trying to make the most of mono-Tzeentch.

Thanks for the replies :-)

No worries, you're doing fine with the Horror blob. It's been a pretty sound tactic for a long while.

But when you run against an army that can outshoot you, you're going to need to throw out as many MWs as possible. The best bet would be to keep a set of units that can jump on a target that giving you trouble.

If you can spare warptime to get the SGs up the field. Then you'll have an easier time as they have to split their attention.

 Oborosen wrote:

Well Kairos did get cheaper with the new release and codex approved. So he may be able to at least fit him into an open slot.

Though that's going to make him the largest target on the board and orbital strikes are now more of a thing. Though the first Tau list something like that hits, is going to get about a dozen sources of special munitions up it's beak.

The only real choice is to run him as a unit, or as your warlord in the case of the extra CP he offers.

Kairos can only get a 4+ inv. Lord of change can get a 3+ inv.

 Oborosen wrote:

If you can spare warptime to get the SGs up the field. Then you'll have an easier time as they have to split their attention.

Daemons dont have access to warptime.

As I mentioned, I like the Lord Of Change model. If I go for that then I'd make him warlord and give him the impossible robe for 3++, incorporeal form for reduce all damage by 1 (to minimum 1). If the Changeling can try to stick with him then he gives him the 6+++ aura in addition. Hopefully even as the obvious target that would make him survive a bit better.

Throwing out psychic mortal wounds is definitely simpler as Thousand Sons. Daemons don't get the 6" extra range, their smite gets progressively harder each cast, and Daemons only have 6 spells to choose from.

I think the suggestion of getting up the board fast is a good one. We can't use warptime or the dark matter crystal like thousand sons, but maybe using the denizens of the warp stratagem on a couple of units would do the trick. Doesn't help with flyers, but might give my opponent something to think about.

OK, Let's Mathhammer, because I am curious myself.

Shiny new Eldar Waveserpent, Spirit Stones and Vectored Engine,

case A: between 36" and 48" of 2 shiny new Soulgrinders, so only the Harvester Cannons.
Average outcome: 0.5 damage
case B: within 36" of 2 SGs: AO: 3.8 damage
case C:: drop 7 Exalted Flamers within 18", blue fire, AO: 5.1 damage.
case D: drop em within 12" pink fire: AO 5.0 damage

Problem, you don't have the CP to make 7 EFs into Denizens of the Warp.

How about 2 units of 9 Flamers at 12"? that's an average of 10.5 damage from shooting, and then you can still charge in for a 0.7 chance to scratch off another wound.
Not a guaranteed kill, but you should be able to drop that Waveserpent at least down a bracket.or two.

That high number of auto-hitting attacks seems to be Tzeentch's best AA battery for 360 points, and you only need 2 CP to drop them where you need them.

Edit: Ask your local Ork player to lend you his dice-rolling buckets, though.
Edit 2:Also, you got 6 Flamers already in your list, if you cut the Soulgrinders, and 60 more points from somewhere for a total of 3 full units of Flamers, you should be able to bomb that Waveserpent out of Tzeentch's beautiful sky in one fell strike.
Edit 3: If you drop the Soulgrinders, the Burning Chariot and one of your DP, you could get 3 units of 9 Flamers and 3 units of 3 Screamers on the board. You could then drop your Supreme Command detachment for 1 Vanguard and 1 Outrider detachment to squeeze 1 more CP out of your models, and you would lean fully into the "giant mass of bodies with a decent invuln" style. Off cos, that's a lot of minis to pay for, paint, drag around to games and move during play.

 AuntHerbert wrote:
OK, Let's Mathhammer, because I am curious myself.

Shiny new Eldar Waveserpent, Spirit Stones and Vectored Engine,

case A: between 36" and 48" of 2 shiny new Soulgrinders, so only the Harvester Cannons.
Average outcome: 0.5 damage
case B: within 36" of 2 SGs: AO: 3.8 damage
case C:: drop 7 Exalted Flamers within 18", blue fire, AO: 5.1 damage.
case D: drop em within 12" pink fire: AO 5.0 damage

Problem, you don't have the CP to make 7 EFs into Denizens of the Warp.

How about 2 units of 9 Flamers at 12"? that's an average of 10.5 damage from shooting, and then you can still charge in for a 0.7 chance to scratch off another wound.
Not a guaranteed kill, but you should be able to drop that Waveserpent at least down a bracket.or two.

That high number of auto-hitting attacks seems to be Tzeentch's best AA battery for 360 points, and you only need 2 CP to drop them where you need them.

Edit: Ask your local Ork player to lend you his dice-rolling buckets, though.
Edit 2:Also, you got 6 Flamers already in your list, if you cut the Soulgrinders, and 60 more points from somewhere for a total of 3 full units of Flamers, you should be able to bomb that Waveserpent out of Tzeentch's beautiful sky in one fell strike.
Edit 3: If you drop the Soulgrinders, the Burning Chariot and one of your DP, you could get 3 units of 9 Flamers and 3 units of 3 Screamers on the board. You could then drop your Supreme Command detachment for 1 Vanguard and 1 Outrider detachment to squeeze 1 more CP out of your models, and you would lean fully into the "giant mass of bodies with a decent invuln" style. Off cos, that's a lot of minis to pay for, paint, drag around to games and move during play.

Awesome post. That really puts the value of the soulgrinders in perspective! Well worth doing the sums...

So, I put the flamers numbers and the waveserpent into the http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/ page to do the sums myself. I don't get quite the same numbers as you, but here goes:
18 Flamers firing D6 autohitting shots each at S4, AP-1, D1, into a T7, W13, SV3+, 6+++ target: I get 8.75W on average, with 10.4% of getting 13W to kill it off in one go.
But if I can get somebody to cast flickering flames on them (+1 to wound) that shifts up to 13.14W on average.

Unfortunately for the Denizens of the Warp strategy, 9x flamers is 12 PL., so 2CP to bring them in. 4CP for the 18 flamers to appear. Still doable. I also need to get somebody close enough 18" of them to get flickering flames onto them. But end of turn 2 movement would allow my fluxmaster to have travelled 2x12" plus advances so long as he's not targeted, so he has a pretty good range. A few screamers around him would help screen.

I've been a fan of my 6x flamers in other games, so maybe the right thing is to go more heavily on them, rather than try out new units? (although I like the look of that lord of change model...)

You make a point about the painting required! I've got 10x pink horrors finished. Another 30 have the pink filled in but are awaiting all detail. Another 20 of them, plus all of these extra flamers is a lot!






Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mis-spoke in the last post when I talked about 60x pink horrors. I've been thinking about a double-battalion list for 2000pts. But back to this one at 1500pts.

Following on from AuntHerbert's selections, here is a new version of the list: 1x Battalion, 1x Vanguard, 1x Outrider, 1498pts, 10CP.


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

+ Configuration +

Battle-forged CP

Chaos Allegiance: Tzeentch

Detachment CP

+ HQ +

Changecaster: Staff of Change

Daemon Prince of Chaos: Daemonspark, Malefic talon, The Impossible Robe, Warlord, Wings
. Tzeentch

+ Troops +

Horrors
. Iridescent Horror
. 29x Pink Horror: 29x Coruscating flames

Horrors: 3x Blue Horror, 10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: 2x Blue Horror, 10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

+ Configuration +

Chaos Allegiance: Tzeentch

Detachment CP

+ HQ +

Fluxmaster: Staff of Change

+ Elites +

Flamers: Pyrocaster
. 8x Flamer: 8x Flickering flames

Flamers: Pyrocaster
. 8x Flamer: 8x Flickering flames

Flamers: Pyrocaster
. 8x Flamer: 8x Flickering flames

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

+ Configuration +

Chaos Allegiance: Tzeentch

Detachment CP

+ HQ +

Fluxmaster: Staff of Change

+ Fast Attack +

Screamers
. 3x Screamer: 3x Lamprey bite

Screamers
. 3x Screamer: 3x Lamprey bite

Screamers
. 3x Screamer: 3x Lamprey bite

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

Once again, the changecaster sticks with the pinks. Then I've gone all-in on the Flamers, with a fluxmaster to accompany them, and a load of screamers with fluxmaster for them too. I've dropped the Changeling. I realise he won't keep up with my DP, and while his 6+++ would be good on the pinks I've got less reason to pick him now.

My remaining DP still has the impossible robe to give him his 3++ invul, but I've given him daemonspark as his warlord trait. That's reroll 1s to wound on shooting by daemon units within 9". If I can get him within 9" of 18 flamers with flickering flames firing on the waveserpent, that raises average wounds to 15.29, with 76.1% chance of getting 13 or more.

I'm pretty happy with the battalion and the Vanguard. Not fully convinced yet by the screamers. Temptation will be to trade that whole 311 points and 1CP of outrider detachment in to get the second DP back with something else, or the lord of change. Or I could add that other blob of 30x pinks plus changecaster and really fill up a chunk of the board. The buckets of dice are useful when rolling 90 dice to hit when shooting with the pinks, then do it all over again with a second blob :-)

Yay, thanx. You need one more thing: A giant wooden compass, to place the Flamers into a perfect circle around that Waveserpent, and then misplace one of them slightly, to trigger the Eldar's OCD!. The true weapons of Tzeentch are madness and confusion, after all!

 p5freak wrote:

 Oborosen wrote:

If you can spare warptime to get the SGs up the field. Then you'll have an easier time as they have to split their attention.

Daemons dont have access to warptime.

Yeah, I should have remembered that. Seeing as I've only been able to do that with my MOP. Though I have been running them solely in my Daemon Engine list.