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I've been searching for a long time to find what I consider to be the best paints GW - or anyone - ever produced.

The pots weren't good, and the paint itself may not have been perfect, but the colors were incredibly vibrant.

When compared with any modern paint, like current GW or current Vallejo, they're just that much more vivid that the others look dull in comparison.

I've tried coat d'arms, which is the older citadel paint, and nowhere as good as that short time when GW made its best paint.

Those paints were apparently not produced for a long period of time, and were produced in France.



We're talking about number 2. on this picture.
It had insanely bright colors like blazing orange, scorpion green, ice blue, bad moon yellow.

Other colors were much better than their current counterparts, like Liche purple and Hawk Turquoise.

Other had such an awesome feel to them you'd love painting with them, like midnight blue, chaos black, ... insane coverage too and almost had an ink-like texture.

One would think nothing matters since you can just mix similar colors yourself (and thin your paints), but it doesn't really seem to work like that. Mixes always end up being much duller, and adding white just takes you to pastel land.

So here's my question: who made that wonderful paint, and do they actually make paint under another obscure brand, like Coat d'Arms for the older Citadel paints?


Thanks.

Gosh - so that photo needs some correcting -

The paint you're looking for was from 1998 onwards, not 2008
The last classic reformulation was in 96 and in 98 passed to your newly contracted french manufacturer. 75 colour range. manufactured there, although the inks and washes were subsequently sourced from China for a number of years, then again, repatriated to France.
It was a difficult migration for several reasons - While the company profited by cutting costs, hobbyists paid more for what was effectively a cheaper product. Names were also problematic, as you've noted, it was a complete reformulation across the board. Hobbyists again were made to adapt as the "Blood Red" you might have painted half your space marine chapter with, was no longer the same "Blood Red". The legacy of this is when the French contract ended, there was a complete overhaul of the nomenclature to coincide with the new formulations. Otherwise it wouldn't just be two versions of each colour confusing us! Modern paints have been renamed to emphasise - you're buying a new product.

Welcome to the rabbit hole!

But to answer your specific question - the french company in question has not been publicly identified.

I can give you some suggestion of french suppliers
you could go away, place some orders and make some colour swatches yourself, see what you think

R0!andtheheadlessthompson wrote:
Gosh - so that photo needs some correcting -

The paint you're looking for was from 1998 onwards, not 2008

Indeed, it seemed rather weird as I remembered having these paints roughly ten years earlier than 2008, including in the bolter shell pots.

It's interesting that *that* migration could've been an issue, where people didn't seem to mind much when GW switched to their arguably worst ever new paint range.
The current white, black and supposedly bright colors are probably the worst they've ever been, right?

And yes, their blood red is different, but again so much more vibrant...

I'm very interested in those French suppliers, if there's any way to get those paints back other than paying through the nose for old sets or going custom from dyes.

The boltershell pots had 2 types the first screw top then a flip top.

Maybe you could email a previous GW Employee, there are plenty

The company that produced Citadel paints in France was called Colart and are based in Le Mans.

Mart

LotusArenco wrote:
The company that produced Citadel paints in France was called Colart and are based in Le Mans.

Mart

Thanks.

Now it makes sense why their paint was so much better .... instead of some random dudes, the paint was actually made by the world's top acrylics brands.

Kanpeki Miniatures wrote:

...
One would think nothing matters since you can just mix similar colors yourself (and thin your paints), but it doesn't really seem to work like that. Mixes always end up being much duller, and adding white just takes you to pastel land.
...

This happens because each primary can be biased one of two ways. If the colours you're mixing aren't right, you'll get a muddy result. This video should skip to a demonstration: https://youtu.be/mFUwh31gTXo?t=287

With miniature paints, you typically don't know the pigments in each pot, so this can be a bit of trial and error. Single pigment paints should make this easier, but I've not tried them (Kimera Kolors?).

LotusArenco wrote:The company that produced Citadel paints in France was called Colart and are based in Le Mans.

Mart

WaveyRaven wrote:This happens because each primary can be biased one of two ways. If the colours you're mixing aren't right, you'll get a muddy result. This video should skip to a demonstration: https://youtu.be/mFUwh31gTXo?t=287

With miniature paints, you typically don't know the pigments in each pot, so this can be a bit of trial and error. Single pigment paints should make this easier, but I've not tried them (Kimera Kolors?).

Hmm, these two facts make me wonder something, at least in theory, if not in actual practice. I didn't know the name Colart off-hand, so I googled it. Seems they own/make (?) both Winsor and Newton and Liquitex (although it seems they bought W&N in the 90's and Liquitex in 2000, so more likely they were using the "same" pigments from W&N when making GW paints in the late 90s and early 2000's, maybe).

So, in theory, if they were the ones making, say that era's Snakebite Leather, we could possibly assume they were using some pigments used in W&N and/or Liquitex acrylics as well. Which means, again, in theory, one could possibly reconstruct that color by properly combining those pigments, from single pigment sources of those brands (presumably, because they would likely have used the same sources they already used for their other lines).

Of course, that is only in theory, for all we know, they might well have actually used other pigments outside their other usual lines. And, I don't think anyone is going to sit there and try to hash all that out, in any case. Then again, it might literally be impossible, I know Instar paints don't match 100% to those era ones even though they tried, because some pigments are just different from what they were using back then, or something.

The current Vallejo Game Color range was originally developed to be equivalent to that era of GW paints; I never noticed any particular difference between them and GW. Have you tried the VGC range?

 catbarf wrote:
The current Vallejo Game Color range was originally developed to be equivalent to that era of GW paints; I never noticed any particular difference between them and GW. Have you tried the VGC range?

While I think that is true in theory, in actual practice they can differ.

For example, that era's Liche Purple vs. Hexed Lichen:


You can see how Liche Purple is more redish purple, where Hexed Lichen is a blueish purple.

 H wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
The current Vallejo Game Color range was originally developed to be equivalent to that era of GW paints; I never noticed any particular difference between them and GW. Have you tried the VGC range?

While I think that is true in theory, in actual practice they can differ.

For example, that era's Liche Purple vs. Hexed Lichen:


You can see how Liche Purple is more redish purple, where Hexed Lichen is a blueish purple.

Magenta vs violet so odds are entirely different base pigment chemicals there

I’m frankly shocked that Instar Paints hasn’t jumped into this already. Did you check them out? They were collecting and color matching the old GW colors, but I don’t know how far they got. Worth a shot for that particular color.

 Cruentus wrote:
I’m frankly shocked that Instar Paints hasn’t jumped into this already. Did you check them out? They were collecting and color matching the old GW colors, but I don’t know how far they got. Worth a shot for that particular color.

The question is *which* old GW colors.
There are so many people who look for the old,old GW colors which are coat d'arms and readily available, and much less who know or care about the French paints, so I'd be surprised if that was the target for Instar Paints.

Oh we're still around

And yes, we're currently converting all the vintage colours as closely as we can through all the eras, none will ever be 100% as changes can be very subtle in the types of pigments used depending on which company you get them from.

Our Vintage line is currently around 98-99% accurate, unless painted side by side on the same model, you'll se litle to no difference at all (Though it's important to let the paint dry first as it'll be brighter in its wet state)

Our current project aim's to be able to recreate most, if not all the old vintage colours from a smaller selection of paints, but this is all still very much a WIP at the moment.

 Supershandy wrote:
Oh we're still around

And yes, we're currently converting all the vintage colours as closely as we can through all the eras, none will ever be 100% as changes can be very subtle in the types of pigments used depending on which company you get them from.

Our Vintage line is currently around 98-99% accurate, unless painted side by side on the same model, you'll se litle to no difference at all (Though it's important to let the paint dry first as it'll be brighter in its wet state)

Our current project aim's to be able to recreate most, if not all the old vintage colours from a smaller selection of paints, but this is all still very much a WIP at the moment.

Which vintage colours though?

Kanpeki Miniatures wrote:
Which vintage colours though?

You can see the full list here.

Thank You

 H wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
The current Vallejo Game Color range was originally developed to be equivalent to that era of GW paints; I never noticed any particular difference between them and GW. Have you tried the VGC range?

While I think that is true in theory, in actual practice they can differ.

For example, that era's Liche Purple vs. Hexed Lichen:


You can see how Liche Purple is more redish purple, where Hexed Lichen is a blueish purple.

Right, believe me, I've been quite frustrated by the fact that they're not 1:1 conversions in the past; what I meant was that I never noticed any real difference between VGC and GW in vibrancy or depth of color like OP is talking about. I question the premise that GW's old line was substantially different from its replacement or contemporaries.

I don't think that anyone can argue that GW's paints have changed over the years. Some colors are completely gone, or have had subtle tonal shifts over time, so that were you to try to paint "Blood Angels Red" from the hex pot days, against the modern equivalent, they wouldn't look the same, or likely close. Blood Angels Red was very strongly orange, and not actually red, like Mephiston now. Colors mentioned in the OP don't exist anymore (Hawk Turquoise), and I used to love the old GW Foundation paints, but once those were gone, similar color paints from any source don't cover as well, and are just "that" off. And try finding a match to Charadon Granite.

There were no real difference in VGC and GW (when VGC was introduced) for colors like black, white, grass green, actual red, etc. And the vibrancy was fine. But when you got into Bone, Leather, or others, they did look and behave differently. VMC on the other hand, were too matte for my use.

When I use my Coat D' Arms, I have to make sure to put down layers carefully, as they're not as point and click as GW's have become - they seem, to me, thinner (CDA) and less opaque. More like GW's layers. Paints have and do change over time, sometimes within batches from the same manufacturer.

That all being said, I use paints from GW, CDA, Scale75, Vallejo (VGC and VMC), Reaper, P3, Army Painter, Ral Partha (super old paints that still work), and even some from model rail companies. I'll like a company/color, or be trying to replace old paint, and I'll try to do the best I can to match it if I can't find the original color.

enjoy the moment...
No paint is forever...

We tried the Instar paints.

Unfortunately the black and white are no better than GW, and the other colors are a far cry from the French GW paints, and while overall not necessarily worse than GW new or VGC, it did not make sense for us to use yet another line of paints.

This is what we wrote back on these paints which were graciously sent for review:

With regards to the paints, François should still write a review on them, but here's a summary of his findings so far:

The black is not black, not good.

Most paints are equivalent to vallejo or GW quality

The thinning seems adequate for his use

We still have to try the metallics

Overall, we won't be switching as there do not seem to be any improvement, but I could see value-minded hobbyists picking your paints over more traditional choices.
One thing I would be very cautious of is whether you've done lightfastness testing, as this could prove dramatic - for your customers and your brand.

Kanpeki Miniatures wrote:
We tried the Instar paints.

Unfortunately the black and white are no better than GW, and the other colors are a far cry from the French GW paints, and while overall not necessarily worse than GW new or VGC, it did not make sense for us to use yet another line of paints.

This is what we wrote back on these paints which were graciously sent for review:

With regards to the paints, François should still write a review on them, but here's a summary of his findings so far:

The black is not black, not good.

Most paints are equivalent to vallejo or GW quality

The thinning seems adequate for his use

We still have to try the metallics

Overall, we won't be switching as there do not seem to be any improvement, but I could see value-minded hobbyists picking your paints over more traditional choices.
One thing I would be very cautious of is whether you've done lightfastness testing, as this could prove dramatic - for your customers and your brand.

We should point out that this was with our previous paint line, the new Alpha line has many improvements over the original formula and is completely unique, namely being extremly thin out of the bottle (Meaning no additional thinning required), the Black is now the darkest black currently available on the market due to it being a pure pigment and it still remains extremely cost effective compared to the major brands.

Our current project is creating a full formula database that should easily encompass the older colours that will allow customers to recreate colours from just a base set of 18 colours.

If you want to know more, check out our Instagram, Twitter and Facebook to see what can be done with our Alpha line with almost minimal effort....even producing works like this

 Supershandy wrote:

We should point out that this was with our previous paint line, the new Alpha line has many improvements over the original formula and is completely unique, namely being extremly thin out of the bottle (Meaning no additional thinning required), the Black is now the darkest black currently available on the market due to it being a pure pigment and it still remains extremely cost effective compared to the major brands.

Good stuff, keep on trying

If you need more honest paint reviews, don't hesitate, we're still painting.