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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Lammia wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I... don't understand your point here.

Well in this only two versions of the Bodyguard scenario, Celestians ans Tyrant Guard have exactly the same rule, but it affects them differently because of the difference between their stat lines, so you'll need to balance the effect between 2 units that aren't supposed to be balanced against each other.

How is that different from, say, having to balance the profile of a weapon against both the statline of a hive guard and the statline of a celestian? The weapon affects each unit differently because of their different profile. It is to be expect, that is the whole reason why they have different statlines.

There are several key differences but the easiest one is:different weapons are supposed to have different strengths and weaknesses. If you shoot a Lascannon at a Guardsmen instead of a LRBT, that's a waste. But the 'cost' of Bodyguarding is the same, regardless of which one of probably a dozen different units across a wide variety of armies.

Lammia wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Lammia wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I... don't understand your point here.

Well in this only two versions of the Bodyguard scenario, Celestians ans Tyrant Guard have exactly the same rule, but it affects them differently because of the difference between their stat lines, so you'll need to balance the effect between 2 units that aren't supposed to be balanced against each other.

How is that different from, say, having to balance the profile of a weapon against both the statline of a hive guard and the statline of a celestian? The weapon affects each unit differently because of their different profile. It is to be expect, that is the whole reason why they have different statlines.

There are several key differences but the easiest one is:different weapons are supposed to have different strengths and weaknesses. If you shoot a Lascannon at a Guardsmen instead of a LRBT, that's a waste. But the 'cost' of Bodyguarding is the same, regardless of which one of probably a dozen different units across a wide variety of armies.

How do you know that the cost of Bodyguarding is the same? Why would you even think that?

Because they would have exactly the same rule

Lammia wrote:
Because they would have exactly the same rule

So?

That doesn't mean that the units are paying the same price in points for the rule.

Every unit in the game has the same rule for shooting their guns, doesn't mean they are paying the same cost to be able to shoot.

Lammia wrote:
Because they would have exactly the same rule

So? You can point the same rule differently based on interactions with the model itself.

Ignore AP-1 is a lot more valuable on a Sister of Battle than on an Ork Boy. If you could pay 1 PPM to give that to Ork Boys, you'd never see it taken-it ain't worth it. But if you could pay 1 PPM on a Sister to get that in addition to another Sacred Order trait, you'd be seeing a lot of 10 point sisters, since that's a lot more valuable.

Likewise, a 5+ Invuln on a Daemon is a lot more valuable than a 5+ Invuln on a Terminator. The Terminator doesn't get to use it till they're dealing with an AP-4 weapon, AP-5 in cover. A Daemon ALWAYS uses it, outside Nurgle Daemons near a Gnarlmaw.

The same rule does not need the same points cost on different units, and in fact SHOULD have differing values, based on how much use the unit gets.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Lammia wrote:
Because they would have exactly the same rule

So?

That doesn't mean that the units are paying the same price in points for the rule.

Every unit in the game has the same rule for shooting their guns, doesn't mean they are paying the same cost to be able to shoot.

I like how we started our posts in the EXACT SAME WAY.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Lammia wrote:
Because they would have exactly the same rule

So?

That doesn't mean that the units are paying the same price in points for the rule.

Every unit in the game has the same rule for shooting their guns, doesn't mean they are paying the same cost to be able to shoot.

Yay?

You can put a cost on shooting, it's a basic action that units do. Bodyguard Special rules have no tangible value on their own. No one was paing a point for a Celestian with +1ws,+1 attack, +1 Ld and Bodyguard over a regular Battle Sister before they got the Sworn Protectors special rule in the new Codex.

Lammia wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Lammia wrote:
Because they would have exactly the same rule

So?

That doesn't mean that the units are paying the same price in points for the rule.

Every unit in the game has the same rule for shooting their guns, doesn't mean they are paying the same cost to be able to shoot.

Yay?

You can put a cost on shooting, it's a basic action that units do. Bodyguard Special rules have no tangible value on their own. No one was paing a point for a Celestian with +1ws,+1 attack, +1 Ld and Bodyguard over a regular Battle Sister before they got the Sworn Protectors special rule in the new Codex.

What on earth does that have to do with your initial statement?

"[UNIT] is overcosted without the Bodyguard rule, but now that it has it, [UNIT] is fine."

How does that equal "All Bodyguard rules must be pointed exactly the same, if they're the same rule."?

 JNAProductions wrote:

Lammia wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Lammia wrote:
Because they would have exactly the same rule

So?

That doesn't mean that the units are paying the same price in points for the rule.

Every unit in the game has the same rule for shooting their guns, doesn't mean they are paying the same cost to be able to shoot.

Yay?

You can put a cost on shooting, it's a basic action that units do. Bodyguard Special rules have no tangible value on their own. No one was paing a point for a Celestian with +1ws,+1 attack, +1 Ld and Bodyguard over a regular Battle Sister before they got the Sworn Protectors special rule in the new Codex.

What on earth does that have to do with your initial statement?

"[UNIT] is overcosted without the Bodyguard rule, but now that it has it, [UNIT] is fine."

How does that equal "All Bodyguard rules must be pointed exactly the same, if they're the same rule."?

That's not my point. Celestians always had Bodyguard, but it was fundamentally worthless. And they needed another special rule (reroll 1s aura become reroll misses) to justify the cost. Bodyguard's value isn't tangible in - dare I say - most cases.

Lammia wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Lammia wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Lammia wrote:
Because they would have exactly the same rule

So?

That doesn't mean that the units are paying the same price in points for the rule.

Every unit in the game has the same rule for shooting their guns, doesn't mean they are paying the same cost to be able to shoot.

Yay?

You can put a cost on shooting, it's a basic action that units do. Bodyguard Special rules have no tangible value on their own. No one was paing a point for a Celestian with +1ws,+1 attack, +1 Ld and Bodyguard over a regular Battle Sister before they got the Sworn Protectors special rule in the new Codex.

What on earth does that have to do with your initial statement?

"[UNIT] is overcosted without the Bodyguard rule, but now that it has it, [UNIT] is fine."

How does that equal "All Bodyguard rules must be pointed exactly the same, if they're the same rule."?

That's not my point. Celestians always had Bodyguard, but it was fundamentally worthless. And they needed another special rule (reroll 1s aura become reroll misses) to justify the cost. Bodyguard's value isn't tangible in - dare I say - most cases.

So "Bodyguard rules are hard to cost properly" now means "All Bodyguard rules must cost the same if they're written the same"?

Again-a 5++ Daemon gets way more mileage out of their Invuln than a 5++ Terminator. You wouldn't charge a Terminator any real significant cost for their Invuln, but you WOULD charge a Daemon. Because, due to stats and model interactions, one has it as a nice little extra, but another has it as their main defense.

Edit: Let's try a hypothetical rule.

Crushing Blows
Whenever this model successfully hits in close combat, it may immediately make another attack with the same weapon.

How many points would that be, approximately, on...

A Fire Warrior?
A Marine?
A Carnifex?
Mortarion?

Ok, perhaps I'm tired and not articulating my point well. I never said they would have the same cost. Only that the value would be highly variable.

If anything, I'm arguing it should no cost for any unit.

JNAProductions wrote:

Lammia wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Lammia wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I... don't understand your point here.

Well in this only two versions of the Bodyguard scenario, Celestians ans Tyrant Guard have exactly the same rule, but it affects them differently because of the difference between their stat lines, so you'll need to balance the effect between 2 units that aren't supposed to be balanced against each other.

How is that different from, say, having to balance the profile of a weapon against both the statline of a hive guard and the statline of a celestian? The weapon affects each unit differently because of their different profile. It is to be expect, that is the whole reason why they have different statlines.

There are several key differences but the easiest one is:different weapons are supposed to have different strengths and weaknesses. If you shoot a Lascannon at a Guardsmen instead of a LRBT, that's a waste. But the 'cost' of Bodyguarding is the same, regardless of which one of probably a dozen different units across a wide variety of armies.

How do you know that the cost of Bodyguarding is the same? Why would you even think that?

Lammia wrote:Because they would have exactly the same rule

Rewriting history doesn't work super well when it's on the same flipping page.

*Any similar unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:

Lammia wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Lammia wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I... don't understand your point here.

Well in this only two versions of the Bodyguard scenario, Celestians ans Tyrant Guard have exactly the same rule, but it affects them differently because of the difference between their stat lines, so you'll need to balance the effect between 2 units that aren't supposed to be balanced against each other.

How is that different from, say, having to balance the profile of a weapon against both the statline of a hive guard and the statline of a celestian? The weapon affects each unit differently because of their different profile. It is to be expect, that is the whole reason why they have different statlines.

There are several key differences but the easiest one is:different weapons are supposed to have different strengths and weaknesses. If you shoot a Lascannon at a Guardsmen instead of a LRBT, that's a waste. But the 'cost' of Bodyguarding is the same, regardless of which one of probably a dozen different units across a wide variety of armies.

How do you know that the cost of Bodyguarding is the same? Why would you even think that?

Lammia wrote:Because they would have exactly the same rule

Rewriting history doesn't work super well when it's on the same flipping page.

I see now. 'Cost' in the context of how what I was trying to say is 'and this unit suffers a mortal wound' or similar. Not point cost.

Did you also not see where people are advocating for intercepting a HIT, not a wound or damage?

Meaning that a T5 2+/4++/5+++ 2W Deathshroud can tank literally ten times better than a Grot can. (36 times better, if the attack doesn't do mortals and is S4 AP0 D1.)

Lammia wrote:
Ok, perhaps I'm tired and not articulating my point well. I never said they would have the same cost. Only that the value would be highly variable.

If anything, I'm arguing it should no cost for any unit.

I think maybe you've misunderstood the intent- the idea people have floated is having bodyguards take hits instead of the model they're protecting, which IMO seems the most straightforward and makes the most sense.

So the value of a bodyguard would be primarily related to how tough the bodyguard is, especially relative to its cost and what it's protecting, which I think makes sense. Deathshroud Terminators, Grots, and Shield Drones could all have the same bodyguard and still represent very different units (elite that can bodyguard as a secondary role, cheap meatshield screens, and tough bodyblockers that do nothing else).

 catbarf wrote:

Lammia wrote:
Ok, perhaps I'm tired and not articulating my point well. I never said they would have the same cost. Only that the value would be highly variable.

If anything, I'm arguing it should no cost for any unit.

I think maybe you've misunderstood the intent- the idea people have floated is having bodyguards take hits instead of the model they're protecting, which IMO seems the most straightforward and makes the most sense.

So the value of a bodyguard would be primarily related to how tough the bodyguard is, especially relative to its cost and what it's protecting, which I think makes sense. Deathshroud Terminators, Grots, and Shield Drones could all have the same bodyguard and still represent very different units (elite that can bodyguard as a secondary role, cheap meatshield screens, and tough bodyblockers that do nothing else).

The 'cost' being that they take the hit instead.

I was actually having a slightly different conversation, but the point is actually still quite valid for this instances, given the Elite nature of most bodyguards and the range amongst them.

There is this magical system called "Points" that can be used to balance.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
There is this magical system called "Points" that can be used to balance.

Does GW know about this?

 Dysartes wrote:
Has anyone actually suggested that the wording for a USR shouldn't appear in the datasheet, space permitting?

No but if theybare universal it's going to be a PITA checking every FAQ document for the correct wording and I'm certaib that we wont end up with the USR beibg nerfed and then having units that solo values is that USR remain overcosted and leaving their codex unplayable for 9 months.

Jackal90 wrote:
To put it simply, not all bodyguards act in the same way.
Some are more effective than others.

I’d say they could split it into 3 USRs to use.

1: basic level bodyguard, worst odds of actually doing their job.
This would be for things like grots and basic drones.

2: mid level, designed for units that are actually trained to do so.

3: high tier.
This is for the units specialised to be bodyguards.
They would offer the best possible odds of saving a character.

Also your seriously suggesting compairing a small creature that has no armour or real mass is as effective at intercepting shots as a flying storm shield. (Like atleast try and hide your bias against Tau and git good)

Lammia wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Lammia wrote:
More seriously, ever rule is unique and players should explain them in detail if asked. Especially if they intend on using them.

The whole point of is this thread is that they are unique for no reason whatsoever.

Well, there is a reason. Some units exist and have the added 'benefit' of a bodyguard rule (Celestian/Lychguard/Tyrant Guard/Ect.) while others are only taken for their Bodyguarding ability (Shield Drone/Inquisitorial Acolyte).

With all their differences, it's a benefit to have tailored rules for each unit.

Can you go into more detail? What benefit?

I like how apparently being a bodyguard is only an 'added benefit' of the Tyranid genus which is specifically engineered to act as a living shield...

Jidmah wrote:

Lammia wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Lammia wrote:
More seriously, ever rule is unique and players should explain them in detail if asked. Especially if they intend on using them.

The whole point of is this thread is that they are unique for no reason whatsoever.

Well, there is a reason. Some units exist and have the added 'benefit' of a bodyguard rule (Celestian/Lychguard/Tyrant Guard/Ect.) while others are only taken for their Bodyguarding ability (Shield Drone/Inquisitorial Acolyte).

With all their differences, it's a benefit to have tailored rules for each unit.

Can you go into more detail? What benefit?

The ability to fix a rule for one unit without breaking the rule for another.

BaconCatBug wrote:There is this magical system called "Points" that can be used to balance.

How do you properly point an ability on a unit that has such a wildly different value depending on what else is around? Do you undercost it? So it's always a consideration. Do you overcost it so the unit sees little play out of the most abusive combination? Some where in the middle and hope it all works out?

Lord Damocles wrote:I like how apparently being a bodyguard is only an 'added benefit' of the Tyranid genus which is specifically engineered to act as a living shield...

I mean, give it WS 5+, Strength 4, 2 Attacks and recost it and it's purpose will go back to being a meat shield...

Just like if you gave a Shield Drone BS 3+, a Strength 5 ranged attack and recost it and Savior Protocols go to being an added benefit.

Lammia wrote:
The ability to fix a rule for one unit without breaking the rule for another.

Except GW currently doesn't fix abilities anyways, assuming that there is a need to fix something in the first place.
Which means there is no actual benefit.

How do you properly point an ability on a unit that has such a wildly different value depending on what else is around? Do you undercost it? So it's always a consideration. Do you overcost it so the unit sees little play out of the most abusive combination? Some where in the middle and hope it all works out?

Good thing this problem only applies to every single other unit in the game.
The only way to find a proper unit cost for any given unit is through iteration. After sufficient iteration cycles you either end up with a proper point cost or the knowledge that a unit is inherently broken and needs a rework.

Lord Damocles wrote:I like how apparently being a bodyguard is only an 'added benefit' of the Tyranid genus which is specifically engineered to act as a living shield...

I mean, give it WS 5+, Strength 4, 2 Attacks and recost it and it's purpose will go back to being a meat shield...

Just like if you gave a Shield Drone BS 3+, a Strength 5 ranged attack and recost it and Savior Protocols go to being an added benefit.

You seem to be under the impression that tyrant guard serve any other role than being a meat shield.

 Jidmah wrote:

Lammia wrote:
The ability to fix a rule for one unit without breaking the rule for another.

Except GW currently doesn't fix abilities anyways, assuming that there is a need to fix something in the first place.
Which means there is no actual benefit.

How do you properly point an ability on a unit that has such a wildly different value depending on what else is around? Do you undercost it? So it's always a consideration. Do you overcost it so the unit sees little play out of the most abusive combination? Some where in the middle and hope it all works out?

Good thing this problem only applies to every single other unit in the game.
The only way to find a proper unit cost for any given unit is through iteration. After sufficient iteration cycles you either end up with a proper point cost or the knowledge that a unit is inherently broken and needs a rework.

Lord Damocles wrote:I like how apparently being a bodyguard is only an 'added benefit' of the Tyranid genus which is specifically engineered to act as a living shield...

I mean, give it WS 5+, Strength 4, 2 Attacks and recost it and it's purpose will go back to being a meat shield...

Just like if you gave a Shield Drone BS 3+, a Strength 5 ranged attack and recost it and Savior Protocols go to being an added benefit.

You seem to be under the impression that tyrant guard serve any other role than being a meat shield.

I don't want to fracture my post too much, so I'll number my responses.

1. They do, they did with Commissars. And all it takes to see how a new universal rule can effect an army is to see how Doctrines interact with Deathwatch and SIA.

2. With every other unit in the game, balancing cost is only about what that unit can do. Bodyguard interacts with a wide range of units within an army with a wide range of cost and abilities.

3. I'm Hopeful that they do something else. Because while having my Exocist's attacks go through a 4++ only to wound a 111 point squad instead of a 250 is mildly frustrating, it's not exactly impressive.

Lammia wrote:
3. I'm Hopeful that they do something else. Because while having my Exocist's attacks go through a 4++ only to wound a 111 point squad instead of a 250 is mildly frustrating, it's not exactly impressive.

The obvious solution is to simply shoot the squad first with weapons that actually hurt the squad. It's not like Sororitas are hurting for gun on their infantry. Hose them down (maybe with 2 damage -2 Storm Bolters for example), then exorcist their charge in the face.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Lammia wrote:
3. I'm Hopeful that they do something else. Because while having my Exocist's attacks go through a 4++ only to wound a 111 point squad instead of a 250 is mildly frustrating, it's not exactly impressive.

The obvious solution is to simply shoot the squad first with weapons that actually hurt the squad. It's not like Sororitas are hurting for gun on their infantry. Hose them down (maybe with 2 damage -2 Storm Bolters for example), then exorcist their charge in the face.

wouldn't the tactic be to hide the unit that does the bodyguarding, so that it is very hard to impossible to shot at them, so they only get hurt when they activate their bodyguard rule to intercept shots targeting the unit protected?

I'm pretty sure Lammia is a troll at this point, or is so out of touch with the game he doesn't know the game. Which at this point i'm not reading anything else he types lol.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Lammia wrote:
3. I'm Hopeful that they do something else. Because while having my Exocist's attacks go through a 4++ only to wound a 111 point squad instead of a 250 is mildly frustrating, it's not exactly impressive.

The obvious solution is to simply shoot the squad first with weapons that actually hurt the squad. It's not like Sororitas are hurting for gun on their infantry. Hose them down (maybe with 2 damage -2 Storm Bolters for example), then exorcist their charge in the face.

Optimally speaking, sure. But even stumbling onto their bodyguarding ability, it's not going to ruin my game in a 'if I'd known this, I'd have won' kind of way.

Karol wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Lammia wrote:
3. I'm Hopeful that they do something else. Because while having my Exocist's attacks go through a 4++ only to wound a 111 point squad instead of a 250 is mildly frustrating, it's not exactly impressive.

The obvious solution is to simply shoot the squad first with weapons that actually hurt the squad. It's not like Sororitas are hurting for gun on their infantry. Hose them down (maybe with 2 damage -2 Storm Bolters for example), then exorcist their charge in the face.

wouldn't the tactic be to hide the unit that does the bodyguarding, so that it is very hard to impossible to shot at them, so they only get hurt when they activate their bodyguard rule to intercept shots targeting the unit protected?

Typically the bodyguarding unit has to be with 3" of the bodyguarded model. If you want to tether a Hive Tyrant or a Swarmlord to within 3" of only one side of a piece of LOS blocking terrain, be my guest. It's much worse with riptides and drones.

Lammia wrote:
The ability to fix a rule for one unit without breaking the rule for another.

You mean like how they fixed only the specific deep-striking units that were causing issues?

Oh wait, no, they just nerfed every single unit with deep-strike.

Phew, glad the same ability has 400 different names. That really came in handy.

out of LoS units being closer then characters and similar stuff seems to be standard here. Only time I could imagine for this not to work, if there was little, if any LoS blocking terrain. And even then the SoB bodyguards can just kneel behind an exorcist . Or do people play it that they can draw LoS through vehicles?