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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User







I have been out of the game for a while and wanted to get back to finishing a few units I have half built. Then maybe get play again.

So I was working an a few units of Sternguard, Blood Angle Death Company and some Tau stealth suits. I bought some and put about half together then bought more and never got around to building them. I was opening the boxes up and saw about half have the 25 mm bases and the other half the 32 mm bases. I guess I did not notice the difference on the boxes when I bought them (like i said been a while). So would it be legal to just base them all on 25 mm bases since they were originally sold at one point with 25 mm bases. I want to also not this was going to finish out armies or add to armies I have been playing with for 15 ish years.

Thanks
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

The rules do not cover base sizes.

With that said, as long as they are all on the same size base, and that was a size that came with a particular model at some point, most people will not mind. But YMMV.

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We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





As DeathReaper says, there are no explicit game rules governing base sizes.

Many tournaments use the rule that any base size the model was ever sold with is legal - and so that filters down to a lot of casual groups too.

However even then, its a contentious issue. This is because size impacts the game. Melee units generally do much better with smaller bases. You may be able to get as many as twice the number of 25mm bases in melee range as 32mm, which for something like Ork Boyz is massive! (Aside: it's not as simple as getting an extra rank, because the bases are round and not square which makes the problem much more mathematically complex than first glance. Suffice it to say, you get a lot more choppas chopping on 25mm!). This is especially unfair as Boyz are now sold on 32s, whereas veteran Ork players will likely have loads on 25s. This puts a new player who assembled their models as instructed out of the box at a very real disadvantage to someone with an older collection (or awareness of the game and budget to order alternate bases).

On the other end, auras gain a surprisingly significant extra area of coverage by going up a base size or two.

For these reasons, people can get quite worked up about perceived gaming of the system.

Basically, we cant really give a solid answer on this - you need to talk with your opponents about what etiquette your group works on. And if you disagree with it, have a friendly chat about why.
   
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Nasty Nob





Dorset, England

I was resistant to the change at first as I have plenty of Ork Boys and Space Marines knocking about, however as I'm doing new models with the larger base I must say they do look better with the 32mm bases.

I've bought so upgrade kits which are basically to half circles that slot around the original base, so it is pretty easy to change.
   
Made in gb
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Luton, England

As has been mentioned there are no actual rules governing this other than the rules of a tournament or houserules of a location/group you play with.

You are unlikely to have any issues using 25mm, just explain you are an old school player and that's what you have. If your opponent perceives any issues offer to play them as if they had bigger bases.

That said I would recommend using the 32mm bases. I'm also an old school player with some models from the early 90s still getting on the field. I was salty at first about the base size change but slowly came around.
They look better, make my classic marines seem more substantial and make the models alot more stable (important for jumppack or metal models).
So much so that I've nearly completed a complete rebasing of my 170 or so space marines, its not a quick job but they look alot better for it :-)

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Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





I also agree that visually the upsizing of bases is a big improvement in my opinion.

Handling it after that is sort or a 'damned if they do, damned if they don't' situation to be fair. Whether they explicitly allowed different base sizes, or forced people to update - a lot of people would be annoyed (just look at Sigmar!).
   
Made in us
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin





Livermore, Ca

I've never had a model with a 32mm base. Frankly I was surprised that broadsides went from a 40mm base to a 60mm base. I modified my original suits and comprimised at 50mm bases, ... because it looks better.

My crisis suits came on 40mm, and they are staying on the 40's, but the ones that I'm using for command models are getting the newer 50mm.

I like HQs that came on 25s better on 32s for the same reasons in the above posts... they look better. I even upgraded my demon princes from 40s to 60s.

Rank and File... they stay on their original bases.

There's advantages of auras on larger bases with disadvantages of maneuverability and combat effectiveness.


Back to the question, I think its legal. But if anything has been upsided (like plastic stealth suits) they will always look better on bigger bases.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Unless your playing at tournament level, it's really going to be a case by case for each game.

In competitive play it can be more contentious, but actually most people appreciate a good conversion.

However it's often better to have atleast one of the current models to swap in as required to prevent any modeling for advantage claims.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
Rank and File... they stay on their original bases.

That really depends on the army. For example, Necron Warriors look better on the new 32mm bases since their feet no longer hang over the edge of the base like they did on the 25mm bases.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User






 Sazzlefrats wrote:
I've never had a model with a 32mm base. Frankly I was surprised that broadsides went from a 40mm base to a 60mm base. I modified my original suits and comprimised at 50mm bases, ... because it looks better.

My crisis suits came on 40mm, and they are staying on the 40's, but the ones that I'm using for command models are getting the newer 50mm.

I like HQs that came on 25s better on 32s for the same reasons in the above posts... they look better. I even upgraded my demon princes from 40s to 60s.

Rank and File... they stay on their original bases.

There's advantages of auras on larger bases with disadvantages of maneuverability and combat effectiveness.


Back to the question, I think its legal. But if anything has been upsided (like plastic stealth suits) they will always look better on bigger bases.

I have bunch of plastic stealth suits from when they first came out on 25 mm, I may try to switch them, they would look better on bigger bases. I am ok with the Broadsides being on bigger bases, they look better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 WisdomLS wrote:
As has been mentioned there are no actual rules governing this other than the rules of a tournament or houserules of a location/group you play with.

You are unlikely to have any issues using 25mm, just explain you are an old school player and that's what you have. If your opponent perceives any issues offer to play them as if they had bigger bases.

That said I would recommend using the 32mm bases. I'm also an old school player with some models from the early 90s still getting on the field. I was salty at first about the base size change but slowly came around.
They look better, make my classic marines seem more substantial and make the models alot more stable (important for jumppack or metal models).
So much so that I've nearly completed a complete rebasing of my 170 or so space marines, its not a quick job but they look alot better for it :-)


Yes I have many metal 90s marines. I do not know if I want to spend the time replacing the 100 plus bases(thank god not the scouts) right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks all for the input. I am rethinking some options and may be buying a bag of bases, not sure what size yet but i need some.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/01 21:59:25


 
   
Made in us
Unbalanced Fanatic






As long as they don't do this: https://youtu.be/pDeIT2OZxDM I'd be fine with someone using 25mm bases.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/01 23:34:34


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 Stux wrote:
As DeathReaper says, there are no explicit game rules governing base sizes.

Many tournaments use the rule that any base size the model was ever sold with is legal - and so that filters down to a lot of casual groups too.

However even then, its a contentious issue. This is because size impacts the game. Melee units generally do much better with smaller bases. You may be able to get as many as twice the number of 25mm bases in melee range as 32mm, which for something like Ork Boyz is massive! (Aside: it's not as simple as getting an extra rank, because the bases are round and not square which makes the problem much more mathematically complex than first glance. Suffice it to say, you get a lot more choppas chopping on 25mm!). This is especially unfair as Boyz are now sold on 32s, whereas veteran Ork players will likely have loads on 25s. This puts a new player who assembled their models as instructed out of the box at a very real disadvantage to someone with an older collection (or awareness of the game and budget to order alternate bases).

On the other end, auras gain a surprisingly significant extra area of coverage by going up a base size or two.

For these reasons, people can get quite worked up about perceived gaming of the system.

Basically, we cant really give a solid answer on this - you need to talk with your opponents about what etiquette your group works on. And if you disagree with it, have a friendly chat about why.


Uh....You can fight 4 ranks of 25mm bases, and 4 ranks of 32mm bases.

Specifically, a model can fight if it's within 1" of a model within 1" of the target. This isn't that hard to compute:
The minimum distance between any 2 ranks of circular bases with a rank between them in a hexagonal close pack is Rank Distance = diameter*(sqrt(3)-1). For 25mm bases, that would be 18.3013mm, for 32mm bases that would be 23.4256mm.
This means that the first and second ranks are both within 1" of the target model for a 32mm or 25mm base, and that the third and fourth ranks are within 1" of the second rank. Thus, at least 4 ranks can fight for both. Neither can fight 5 ranks, because a third rank would be more than 1" away at it's closest point for either base size.



As for the rebasing problem, I bought a bunch of rings for my stuff, which expand my 25mm bases to 32mm bases.

There are advantages and disadvantages to the base size:
Larger bases take up more area, and allow greater dispersion between models so a squad can zone out area better, and tag multiple units better.
Smaller bases take up less space and allow the unit to pack in tighter, such as behind a building, and to fit between enemy models better.

If you go over 34.7mm in base size, you'll lose 2 ranks of fighters, but both 25mm and 32mm can fight 4 ranks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eipi10 wrote:
As long as they don't do this: https://youtu.be/pDeIT2OZxDM I'd be fine with someone using 25mm bases.


I don't understand why this is an exploit or would be a problem.

This guy's just showing a line [a square pack], which is appreciably less efficient than a hexagonal pack. And a hexagonal pack can fit 4 ranks of either base, so he's not getting away with anything for having a smaller base.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/05/04 00:29:50


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Unbalanced Fanatic






 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I don't understand why this is an exploit or would be a problem.

This guy's just showing a line [a square pack], which is appreciably less efficient than a hexagonal pack. And a hexagonal pack can fit 4 ranks of either base, so he's not getting away with anything for having a smaller base.

The only time I have seen someone try to position 32mm models such that they might be able to attack in 4 ranks, his opponent called him out for moving his (the opponent's) models, for cheating. The guy probably wasn't trying to move his opponent's models, but almost certainly accidentally did so when getting the millimeters just right to attack in 4 ranks. Either way, he gave on the 4 rank idea, apologized, and said it was an accident. Point being, what's mathematically possible is not often practically possible.

But frankly, I don't know how he could have even proven to his opponent that the second rank was within 1 inch. Measuring a big group of models hexagonally seems fraught with error. After all, the visual angle is such that even measuring from above a space marine makes a 32 mm base looks closer to 31mm or even 30mm. I don't see how you can prove something to within 2mm under those circumstances.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 Eipi10 wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I don't understand why this is an exploit or would be a problem.

This guy's just showing a line [a square pack], which is appreciably less efficient than a hexagonal pack. And a hexagonal pack can fit 4 ranks of either base, so he's not getting away with anything for having a smaller base.

The only time I have seen someone try to position 32mm models such that they might be able to attack in 4 ranks, his opponent called him out for moving his (the opponent's) models, for cheating. The guy probably wasn't trying to move his opponent's models, but almost certainly accidentally did so when getting the millimeters just right to attack in 4 ranks. Either way, he gave on the 4 rank idea, apologized, and said it was an accident. Point being, what's mathematically possible is not often practically possible.

But frankly, I don't know how he could have even proven to his opponent that the second rank was within 1 inch. Measuring a big group of models hexagonally seems fraught with error. After all, the visual angle is such that even measuring from above a space marine makes a 32 mm base looks closer to 31mm or even 30mm. I don't see how you can prove something to within 2mm under those circumstances.


I don't think it's hard. There's enough tolerance [2mm] that they don't even have to be touching, just really close, and a hexagonal pack is really easy to do. It's easier than a perfect line, since the circles naturally fit together that way .

Remember, you're not actually measuring hexagonally; you're measuring straight ahead to the 2nd rank, with the 1st ran bases offset to the left and right.

The Justiciar with the hammer at the far right can fight the Infiltrator on the far left because the distance between him and the middle guy and the middle guy and the Infiltrator are both 23.4mm.
Spoiler:


In fact, there's enough tolerance for it to look like this [I stood them off with 1mm shims and then slid the 1 and 3 ranks further out a little], which is plenty of room to not touch your enemy model:
Spoiler:


2mm, per 2 ranks, 4mm for the 4th rank, is plenty of tolerance to not touch your opposing model if your opponent is antsy.


Now, you might not be able to fit everybody in because they take up a larger footprint and buildings, craters, and cover get in the way, but the large base alone doesn't make it particularly difficult, in an open area, to have 4 ranks fight.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/04 02:01:39


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Unbalanced Fanatic






25mm bases have three times the tolerance. 2 mm is so little that it is very easy to use perspective to lawyer around that. I don't think the burden of proof can ever be there unless you have measuring notches on the game mat. It's not like your opponent will put models in perfect formation to match yours, this isn't fantasy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/04 01:59:29


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 Eipi10 wrote:
25mm bases have three times the tolerance. 2 mm is so little that it is very easy to use perspective to lawyer around that. I don't think the burden of proof can ever be there unless you have measuring notches on the game mat. It's not like your opponent will put models in perfect formation to match yours, this isn't fantasy.


Given that it's easier when the opponent spreads out their models, since you can wrap around a bit and your wiggly line can move part of the 4th rank forward, I still fail to see how this is a problem.

As my picture shows, there's also plenty of room to pack in. And you can always use a shim or something to check your distance. 2mm is a fairly decent amount of space, it's not like it's invisibly small or anything.


This is kind of getting beyond the point: if somebody is using 25mm bases, and they're fighting 4 ranks, they're not modelling for some mathematical advantage of the metric system that they wouldn't get over 32mm bases. Both can fight 4 ranks if you want to.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/04 02:19:02


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Unbalanced Fanatic






 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
2mm is a fairly decent amount of space, it's not like it's invisibly small or anything.
When measuring from above, i'd say it is. I took some pictures to show this, but I don't know if you can prove something like this using pictures, it makes things look worse than they are.

Point being, you can't prove something like this with perspective and viewing angles being what they are. You really just have to assume that it is possible based on what the math says.
[Thumb - IMG_6209.jpg]

[Thumb - IMG_6205.jpg]

   
Made in gb
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Luton, England

In case anyone is thinking of Rebasing there models from 25 to 32. I'd highly recommend "TableTop Adaptors" adaptor rings.

They fit around the edge of the old base so there is no messy removal process. They also lift up the old base so it's the new bigger base height, they keep the sloped sides which GW bases have and they dont have and gap to fill like most of the ring shaped base extenders

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