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With the usual caveats that apply for taking understrength units, are you allowed to use the Lone Wolf Stratagem on an understrength unit that starts as 1 model?

An example of such an understrength unit may be a unit of Aggressors but only having the single Aggressor Pack Leader rather than the usual minimum 3 models.

No, specifically because the strategem says “reduced to a single model” it would need to say, “ if there is a... unit from your army... that consists of a single model” for it to apply.

So with the example I posted, the Aggressor squad has been reduced from a 3 man to 1 man during list building by utilising the understrength unit rule. Or does that not count because of some reason?

JakeSiren wrote:
So with the example I posted, the Aggressor squad has been reduced from a 3 man to 1 man during list building by utilising the understrength unit rule. Or does that not count because of some reason?

You could interpret it as prior to list building the aggressor unit didn’t exist in your army. You added a unit with one model, you didn’t reduce a 3 model unit to only 1 model.

My view is that the unit hasn’t been reduced to one model.

An absurd example would be me putting a 10 model unit in my army list, changing my mind and changing it to a 5 model unit when I finalised the army list, then during the battle claiming that it started as 10 models for rules purposes.

Aash wrote:
An absurd example would be me putting a 10 model unit in my army list, changing my mind and changing it to a 5 model unit when I finalised the army list, then during the battle claiming that it started as 10 models for rules purposes.

Your absurd example doesn't follow. The difference being what you can demonstrate as should be vs what you claim has been. The Aggressor being able to demonstrable that it should be 3 models at least, and that it has been reduced down to 1 via the understrength unit rule.

I would say no, because the unit never got reduced to 1 model, it started as 1 model. It doesn't matter what the datasheet says, the unit started the game as 1 model so it was never reduced to 1 model.

JakeSiren wrote:

Aash wrote:
An absurd example would be me putting a 10 model unit in my army list, changing my mind and changing it to a 5 model unit when I finalised the army list, then during the battle claiming that it started as 10 models for rules purposes.

Your absurd example doesn't follow. The difference being what you can demonstrate as should be vs what you claim has been. The Aggressor being able to demonstrable that it should be 3 models at least, and that it has been reduced down to 1 via the understrength unit rule.

What a unit “should” be has no bearing on what the unit actually is. It’s a one model unit, always was.

JakeSiren wrote:
So with the example I posted, the Aggressor squad has been reduced from a 3 man to 1 man during list building by utilising the understrength unit rule. Or does that not count because of some reason?

It doesn't count because the unit was never more than a single model at any point, other than in some vague conceptual sense that doesn't hold water in context. I don't think there's a completely definitive rule we can point to other than falling back on the generally accepted usage of the word "reduced" in the context of this rule. If nobody would describe your Aggressors as being "reduced" from 3 models to 1 under other circumstances I don't think you can argue that definition applies here.

Slipspace wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
So with the example I posted, the Aggressor squad has been reduced from a 3 man to 1 man during list building by utilising the understrength unit rule. Or does that not count because of some reason?

It doesn't count because the unit was never more than a single model at any point, other than in some vague conceptual sense that doesn't hold water in context. I don't think there's a completely definitive rule we can point to other than falling back on the generally accepted usage of the word "reduced" in the context of this rule. If nobody would describe your Aggressors as being "reduced" from 3 models to 1 under other circumstances I don't think you can argue that definition applies here.

When describing army lists, people would described the unit as having a reduced size from its normal composition.

I can see that the majority don't consider it sufficient for the Lone Wolf stratagem purposes however.

From a rules perspective I don’t think it’s allowed, but in a friendly/casual game I’d probably be ok with it provided we discussed it beforehand, so maybe worth discussing with your opponent?

JakeSiren wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
So with the example I posted, the Aggressor squad has been reduced from a 3 man to 1 man during list building by utilising the understrength unit rule. Or does that not count because of some reason?

It doesn't count because the unit was never more than a single model at any point, other than in some vague conceptual sense that doesn't hold water in context. I don't think there's a completely definitive rule we can point to other than falling back on the generally accepted usage of the word "reduced" in the context of this rule. If nobody would describe your Aggressors as being "reduced" from 3 models to 1 under other circumstances I don't think you can argue that definition applies here.

When describing army lists, people would described the unit as having a reduced size from its normal composition.

I can see that the majority don't consider it sufficient for the Lone Wolf stratagem purposes however.

Who are these people you speak of who would describe it that way? I know I'd say it is an understrength unit of 1 model.

Regardless, I also agree it would not be a unit reduced from 3 to 1 models.

This is clearly not intended. No tournament will allow this. I personally wouldn't even be happy with a friend doing it in a casual game since it is such an obvious violation of the spirit of the rules.

I don't think it's RAW.

But, if we were following the Rule of Three fully, I'd actually allow it.

You're spending an entire detachment and 2 CP to get a beefed-up Aggressor. It ain't gonna wreck the world.

Actually, looking at the text of the Understrength Units rule:

BRB Page 242 wrote:Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models to field a minimum sized unit; if this is the case, you can still include one unit of that type in your army with as many models as you have available.

It seems like you are only allowed to field understrength units if you do not physically own a sufficient number of models. I suppose it depends on your definition of 'have', but I would say that If there are additional agressor models sitting on your shelf at home then you do not have permission to field a single one

Lone wolf doesn't say how exactly a unit is reduced to one model. If I reduce it to one model during list building I fulfill the requirement of the stratagem.

 p5freak wrote:
Lone wolf doesn't say how exactly a unit is reduced to one model. If I reduce it to one model during list building I fulfill the requirement of the stratagem.

No, you don't. The unit is never reduced to a single model, it starts as a single model unit.

 p5freak wrote:
Lone wolf doesn't say how exactly a unit is reduced to one model. If I reduce it to one model during list building I fulfill the requirement of the stratagem.

If it starts out undersized then it's not reduced, it started at that size.

 doctortom wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Lone wolf doesn't say how exactly a unit is reduced to one model. If I reduce it to one model during list building I fulfill the requirement of the stratagem.

If it starts out undersized then it's not reduced, it started at that size.

The stratagem doesn't say how or when it has to be reduced. Only that the unit is reduced to one model matters.

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Lone wolf doesn't say how exactly a unit is reduced to one model. If I reduce it to one model during list building I fulfill the requirement of the stratagem.

If it starts out undersized then it's not reduced, it started at that size.

The stratagem doesn't say how or when it has to be reduced. Only that the unit is reduced to one model matters.

I was gonna take a 30-man Boyz blob, but I reduced it to 10 before the game started.

Clearly, I should be able to Endless Green Tide a unit of 30 there.

Again, I'm not against allowing it-but it ain't RAW.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Lone wolf doesn't say how exactly a unit is reduced to one model. If I reduce it to one model during list building I fulfill the requirement of the stratagem.

If it starts out undersized then it's not reduced, it started at that size.

The stratagem doesn't say how or when it has to be reduced. Only that the unit is reduced to one model matters.

I was gonna take a 30-man Boyz blob, but I reduced it to 10 before the game started.

Clearly, I should be able to Endless Green Tide a unit of 30 there.

Again, I'm not against allowing it-but it ain't RAW.

Sure, but Green Tide talks about "set it up again... at its full starting strength", so that example is a non sequitur.

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Lone wolf doesn't say how exactly a unit is reduced to one model. If I reduce it to one model during list building I fulfill the requirement of the stratagem.

If it starts out undersized then it's not reduced, it started at that size.

The stratagem doesn't say how or when it has to be reduced. Only that the unit is reduced to one model matters.

Show me where your purchased 3 models and then reduced it to 1 please.

 alextroy wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Lone wolf doesn't say how exactly a unit is reduced to one model. If I reduce it to one model during list building I fulfill the requirement of the stratagem.

If it starts out undersized then it's not reduced, it started at that size.

The stratagem doesn't say how or when it has to be reduced. Only that the unit is reduced to one model matters.

Show me where your purchased 3 models and then reduced it to 1 please.

What if buy a single model from ebay ?

 p5freak wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Lone wolf doesn't say how exactly a unit is reduced to one model. If I reduce it to one model during list building I fulfill the requirement of the stratagem.

If it starts out undersized then it's not reduced, it started at that size.

The stratagem doesn't say how or when it has to be reduced. Only that the unit is reduced to one model matters.

Show me where your purchased 3 models and then reduced it to 1 please.

What if buy a single model from ebay ?

Then you never reduced the size of the unit, it only ever had one model in it.

Aash wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Lone wolf doesn't say how exactly a unit is reduced to one model. If I reduce it to one model during list building I fulfill the requirement of the stratagem.

If it starts out undersized then it's not reduced, it started at that size.

The stratagem doesn't say how or when it has to be reduced. Only that the unit is reduced to one model matters.

Show me where your purchased 3 models and then reduced it to 1 please.

What if buy a single model from ebay ?

Then you never reduced the size of the unit, it only ever had one model in it.

I reduced the normal squad size to one model during list building. Again, lone wolf doesnt care how and when the unit is reduced to one.

 p5freak wrote:

Aash wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Lone wolf doesn't say how exactly a unit is reduced to one model. If I reduce it to one model during list building I fulfill the requirement of the stratagem.

If it starts out undersized then it's not reduced, it started at that size.

The stratagem doesn't say how or when it has to be reduced. Only that the unit is reduced to one model matters.

Show me where your purchased 3 models and then reduced it to 1 please.

What if buy a single model from ebay ?

Then you never reduced the size of the unit, it only ever had one model in it.

I reduced the normal squad size to one model during list building. Again, lone wolf doesnt care how and when the unit is reduced to one.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. See my previous posts if you’re interested in my take.

And, again, the unit never went from 3 models to 1 model. The unit started as 1 model because it's an Understrength unit.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And, again, the unit never went from 3 models to 1 model. The unit started as 1 model because it's an Understrength unit.

Agreed. You added it to your army as a single model.

This talk of whether you own the full unit etc is not just irrelevant but absolutely ridiculous.

you don't decrease it from 3 to 1 during list building, you increase it from 0 to 1! at no point during the game, pre-game or list-building is the unit over 1, so can never have reduced to 1.

 Bilge Rat wrote:
Actually, looking at the text of the Understrength Units rule:

BRB Page 242 wrote:Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models to field a minimum sized unit; if this is the case, you can still include one unit of that type in your army with as many models as you have available.

It seems like you are only allowed to field understrength units if you do not physically own a sufficient number of models. I suppose it depends on your definition of 'have', but I would say that If there are additional agressor models sitting on your shelf at home then you do not have permission to field a single one

Either you missed the word after "have" or you specifically chose to ignore it in order to make a ridiculous, non-existent, argument.

"...have available"

It does not matter if you have 2, 3, or 40,000 aggressors sitting on your shelf, if you only have 1 at the table; then you only have 1 available (especially if you are not playing in the same place that you keep your models. i.e. game club, LFGS, or friend's house.

Now, while it is true that if you are list-building in the same location as your models; then the full strength unit is more likely for you to "have (those models) available", negating an allowance to bring an understrength unit. But, there have been times that I am at the store and putting a list together only to find that I have left a member or 2 on my painting table(generally only having an understrength unit of 3, 4, 8, or 9, instead of 1, or 2 in this case, but still).

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I would say no, because the unit never got reduced to 1 model, it started as 1 model. It doesn't matter what the datasheet says, the unit started the game as 1 model so it was never reduced to 1 model.

Agreed. And you know what happens when we agree!