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Ok, read the bit about good old fabe trying to create "new men" that were more or less a buncha "Khan clones" from star trek. Genetically enhanced, selfish, power mad wanna be tyrants yadda yadda yadda.

Did gw make anything out of that? Are there any gamer plots involving the "New men"? A recent thread of space marines being made able to breed kicked that old memory and made me wonder whatever happened to bile's ambition to create a race of "new men".

He still seems to want to create an improved form of humanity and it may be a thread of War or The Spider. We do know that he is very interested in Primaris Marines and his quest to capture and study them has been mentioned in recent fluff. In fact, one of his "assistants" that comes with the new model seems to be removing the progenoid gland of a Primaris marine.

It's there. There is a major secondary New Man character in his novel series called Igori, who Bile dotes on as a surrogate daughter almost. There are two other major(ish) named ones- the twins called Maysha and Mayshana. These ones are used in hunt teams known as Gland Hounds, who are trained to pull down Astartes like a pack of dogs. One on one they're no match for a SM, but that's not how they hunt.

They are just there as one of 40k's nice plot hooks. Bile has seeded worlds with populations of them across the galaxy and they remain hidden, awaiting their time to take over the galaxy. This is why Bile wants the Primaris gene-seed- New Men are given "lesser" versions of SM gene-seed to enhance their genetics, so with pure Primaris seed Bile can create more refined versions of his New Men.

In the books they are essentially used as an allegory for Bile's hypocrisy. Bile says time and time again SMs are not the inheritors of this galaxy, humanity is. Eventually the Astartes will wither off and die and the galaxy is there for humanity to take, yet he endures through constant cloning of himself. "Not until my work is done" he repeats as his mantra as the New Men are constantly tinkered and changed to make the perfect human as Slaanesh has wormed its influence into Bile no matter how much he denies its sentience.

So bile is a loyalist?

Seriously though we are still eating big for biles new model to be released and I have a sneaky suspicion that gw will use the new men as a way to have primaris CSM

mrFickle wrote:
So bile is a loyalist?

Seriously though we are still eating big for biles new model to be released and I have a sneaky suspicion that gw will use the new men as a way to have primaris CSM

No, Bile is a hypocritical allegory of the worst atheist you know and people who get screenshotted on r/iamverysmart. He denies the sentience of the Chaos gods (he calls them "Interdimensional cancers that through folk tales the LATD mistook for sentience") and wants to populate the galaxy with his New Men.

Which leads into my next point. Bile does not want more Marines. This is right there in the novels. It grinds my gears every time I see someone peddling it as this "truth" gets spiralled out of control (CSM "Primaris" already exist in the form of Possessed, Greater Possessed and the cult marines to an extent). Bile wants gene seed. Always has, always will. It is a bartering tool for safe passage in the Eye (Bile is not the only genecrafter out there, he is just the best one) and a useful tool for tweaking his latest version of New Men. Primaris are created from "purer" stock than their watered down brethren with 10k years of genetic deviations etc. to deal with. Of course he's going to want their gene seed, but not for the thing everyone assumes.

mrFickle wrote:
So bile is a loyalist?

Seriously though we are still eating big for biles new model to be released and I have a sneaky suspicion that gw will use the new men as a way to have primaris CSM

You can count on one hand the number of BL story arcs that ended up having anything to do with the codexes/supplements. GW isn't even going to acknowledge the New Men, let alone incorporate them anywhere, for two main reasons. The Fabius Bile novels take place 6,000 years before the current era, and more importantly, because Josh Reynolds no longer works for them.

I still think the new bile model will be more than just a new model as it accompanies a PA Novel. I think his stats will be buffed and he will be able to lead some sort of warband.

Bile already leads a warband. It is a university cum private army called The Consortium (that GW in that PA book named "Agents of Bile" for whatever reason...).

 Grimtuff wrote:
Bile already leads a warband. It is a university cum private army called The Consortium (that GW in that PA book named "Agents of Bile" for whatever reason...).

I assume the people writing the codexes and supplements don't read the black library books. Which sounds both ridiculous but plausible for GW.

pm713 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Bile already leads a warband. It is a university cum private army called The Consortium (that GW in that PA book named "Agents of Bile" for whatever reason...).

I assume the people writing the codexes and supplements don't read the black library books. Which sounds both ridiculous but plausible for GW.

No - pretty sure from various interviews - its the BL writters who have to adjust to the latest Codex/Release/supplement etc.

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Bile already leads a warband. It is a university cum private army called The Consortium (that GW in that PA book named "Agents of Bile" for whatever reason...).

I assume the people writing the codexes and supplements don't read the black library books. Which sounds both ridiculous but plausible for GW.

No - pretty sure from various interviews - its the BL writters who have to adjust to the latest Codex/Release/supplement etc.

the afterward to the emperor's last gift has ADB mentioning re-writing parts of the novel when the 5th edition GK dex dropped

 Matt Swain wrote:
Ok, read the bit about good old fabe trying to create "new men" that were more or less a buncha "Khan clones" from star trek. Genetically enhanced, selfish, power mad wanna be tyrants yadda yadda yadda.

Not so much tyrants, actually. He wants to (and has largely failed) to breed them with a sense of independence from that sort of control.

He wants his version of humanity to be free of primarchs, emperors and gods. Shame they look at him as all of the above.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Ok, read the bit about good old fabe trying to create "new men" that were more or less a buncha "Khan clones" from star trek. Genetically enhanced, selfish, power mad wanna be tyrants yadda yadda yadda.

Did gw make anything out of that? Are there any gamer plots involving the "New men"? A recent thread of space marines being made able to breed kicked that old memory and made me wonder whatever happened to bile's ambition to create a race of "new men".

The original “new man” was the emperor in good old fluff. So these new “new men” sound quite similar.

There’s some interesting reveals in here for me, are there a specific series of books about Fabius that I can read to get the characters full story and motivation for the new men.

The problem GW have is that he is still presented as a CSM character yet has no allegiance to any chaos god or army despite his EC roots.

This is why I am suprised they are doing a new model when he he doesn’t really benefit the table top Much and is therefore a fun character. To benefits players they would have been better off buffing Lucius and providing him as top notch war lord.

Therefore I assume the new model and pa book mean bigger things for FB on the table top. I think I’m repeating myself.

mrFickle wrote:

The problem GW have is that he is still presented as a CSM character yet has no allegiance to any chaos god or army despite his EC roots.

He has always been that though, long long before the books. A renegade to his own legion. The actively not worshipping the gods thing is from the novels. He is purposely portrayed as the typical annoying atheist character, which gels well with a captured Word Bearer daemonologist in his warband. He is only still around as Bile has fitted his body with several traps and has a bomb in his head that is wired to Bile's own brain activity (so if Bile properly dies, he dies), but Saqqara himself only thinks Bile keeps him around as he simply wants someone to argue with about theology.

"You know that I am right, yet you desperately hope to prove me wrong."
Sounds a lot like the average day on Dakka...

 Grimtuff wrote:

"You know that I am right, yet you desperately hope to prove me wrong."
Sounds a lot like the average day on Dakka...

You take that back! It is clearly false as I will demonstrate in my ten paragraph long essay filled with as many logical fallacies, inconsistencies and misrepresented sources as I can!

 Grimtuff wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

The problem GW have is that he is still presented as a CSM character yet has no allegiance to any chaos god or army despite his EC roots.

He has always been that though, long long before the books. A renegade to his own legion. The actively not worshipping the gods thing is from the novels. He is purposely portrayed as the typical annoying atheist character, which gels well with a captured Word Bearer daemonologist in his warband. He is only still around as Bile has fitted his body with several traps and has a bomb in his head that is wired to Bile's own brain activity (so if Bile properly dies, he dies), but Saqqara himself only thinks Bile keeps him around as he simply wants someone to argue with about theology.

"You know that I am right, yet you desperately hope to prove me wrong."
Sounds a lot like the average day on Dakka...

Yeah the character is great. But working him into an army is hard, certainly he can’t be a warlord. So my point is that he needs his rules changing to make him worth putting at the head of some kind of army or taking as a powerful unit

He is getting his own army's rules in War of the Spider, which I mentioned earlier ITT.

 Grimtuff wrote:
He is getting his own army's rules in War of the Spider, which I mentioned earlier ITT.

Cool, I missed that but it sounds super sweet. I really hope there’s a way of including an EC warband without it being a soup

mrFickle wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
He is getting his own army's rules in War of the Spider, which I mentioned earlier ITT.

Cool, I missed that but it sounds super sweet. I really hope there’s a way of including an EC warband without it being a soup

Well, it would be soup.
Bile has very thoroughly burned his bridges with his Legion, who didn't like him much to begin with (even pre-Heresy)

I won't spoil anything, but the second of his novels has him absolutely nuking his ties to the legion. Twice. (and casually damaging it a few times, but that really doesn't matter in comparison.

So Fabius Bile is a secular humanist?

-STS

Voss wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
He is getting his own army's rules in War of the Spider, which I mentioned earlier ITT.

Cool, I missed that but it sounds super sweet. I really hope there’s a way of including an EC warband without it being a soup

Well, it would be soup.
Bile has very thoroughly burned his bridges with his Legion, who didn't like him much to begin with (even pre-Heresy)

I won't spoil anything, but the second of his novels has him absolutely nuking his ties to the legion. Twice. (and casually damaging it a few times, but that really doesn't matter in comparison.

I feel he'll have some binding common keyword though to take him with other legions. No matter how much all the legions hate him and want him permanently dead, they all come crawling back.

Like the man himself said "Ezekyle (Abaddon) can be quite forgiving when he wants something..."

Absolutely I’m thinking e key word might be ENHANCED. Regardless of who he has upset this guys is the EC main dealer in enhancements modifications combat drugs and who knows what else. He has a massive hold over them and the demon primarchs.

Been catching up on his lore and it seems he has cloned Fulgrim but he has been imprisoned busy the necrons and he has the DNA of saguinus so I wonder if the relaunch of FB will be the stepping stone to bring back some of the primarchs who were previously thought gone forever. He’s already cloned ferrus manus many times. And a primarchs knowledge and memories is stored in their genes

 Grimtuff wrote:

Voss wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
He is getting his own army's rules in War of the Spider, which I mentioned earlier ITT.

Cool, I missed that but it sounds super sweet. I really hope there’s a way of including an EC warband without it being a soup

Well, it would be soup.
Bile has very thoroughly burned his bridges with his Legion, who didn't like him much to begin with (even pre-Heresy)

I won't spoil anything, but the second of his novels has him absolutely nuking his ties to the legion. Twice. (and casually damaging it a few times, but that really doesn't matter in comparison.

I feel he'll have some binding common keyword though to take him with other legions. No matter how much all the legions hate him and want him permanently dead, they all come crawling back.

Like the man himself said "Ezekyle (Abaddon) can be quite forgiving when he wants something..."

Well, yeah, he'll still have the chaos keyword at the vary least. Heretic Astartes too.
The point is he doesn't seem himself as an EC commander any more, and very few would be willing to serve under him given the sheer magnitude of the things he's done.

mrFickle wrote:Been catching up on his lore and it seems he has cloned Fulgrim but he has been imprisoned busy the necrons and he has the DNA of saguinus so I wonder if the relaunch of FB will be the stepping stone to bring back some of the primarchs who were previously thought gone forever. He’s already cloned ferrus manus many times. And a primarchs knowledge and memories is stored in their genes

Very much doubt it. He wasn't happy with the results of his experiments in that arena... which lead directly to his bargain with Trazyn. He seemed pretty convinced that primarchs were a dead end.
Also other legions tend to go rampage nuts when it comes to cloned primarchs. Its why several of the chaos legions are shattered, and Bile's original world/lab in the Eye is a smoking wreck.

mrFickle wrote:
Absolutely I’m thinking e key word might be ENHANCED. Regardless of who he has upset this guys is the EC main dealer in enhancements modifications combat drugs and who knows what else. He has a massive hold over them and the demon primarchs.

Been catching up on his lore and it seems he has cloned Fulgrim but he has been imprisoned busy the necrons and he has the DNA of saguinus so I wonder if the relaunch of FB will be the stepping stone to bring back some of the primarchs who were previously thought gone forever. He’s already cloned ferrus manus many times. And a primarchs knowledge and memories is stored in their genes

He doesn't seem a fan of primarchs. His main thing is making a new species rather than impressive individuals.

Voss wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Voss wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
He is getting his own army's rules in War of the Spider, which I mentioned earlier ITT.

Cool, I missed that but it sounds super sweet. I really hope there’s a way of including an EC warband without it being a soup

Well, it would be soup.
Bile has very thoroughly burned his bridges with his Legion, who didn't like him much to begin with (even pre-Heresy)

I won't spoil anything, but the second of his novels has him absolutely nuking his ties to the legion. Twice. (and casually damaging it a few times, but that really doesn't matter in comparison.

I feel he'll have some binding common keyword though to take him with other legions. No matter how much all the legions hate him and want him permanently dead, they all come crawling back.

Like the man himself said "Ezekyle (Abaddon) can be quite forgiving when he wants something..."

Well, yeah, he'll still have the chaos keyword at the vary least. Heretic Astartes too.
The point is he doesn't seem himself as an EC commander any more, and very few would be willing to serve under him given the sheer magnitude of the things he's done.

He does though, when he wants to be a giant hypocrite.

"You will address me as Lieutenant Commander" whilst at the same time declaring the III Legion dead and rank meaning nothing any more. Pick a lane, Bile.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Voss wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
He is getting his own army's rules in War of the Spider, which I mentioned earlier ITT.

Cool, I missed that but it sounds super sweet. I really hope there’s a way of including an EC warband without it being a soup

Well, it would be soup.
Bile has very thoroughly burned his bridges with his Legion, who didn't like him much to begin with (even pre-Heresy)

I won't spoil anything, but the second of his novels has him absolutely nuking his ties to the legion. Twice. (and casually damaging it a few times, but that really doesn't matter in comparison.

I feel he'll have some binding common keyword though to take him with other legions. No matter how much all the legions hate him and want him permanently dead, they all come crawling back.

Like the man himself said "Ezekyle (Abaddon) can be quite forgiving when he wants something..."

Well, yeah, he'll still have the chaos keyword at the vary least. Heretic Astartes too.
The point is he doesn't seem himself as an EC commander any more, and very few would be willing to serve under him given the sheer magnitude of the things he's done.

He does though, when he wants to be a giant hypocrite.

"You will address me as Lieutenant Commander" whilst at the same time declaring the III Legion dead and rank meaning nothing any more. Pick a lane, Bile.

You can be called something and it not mean anything. People could call me General and it still wouldn't mean much.

Yes, but when Bile wants to pontificate and make a point he insists his subordinates call him that whilst at the same time whenever someone else does it he declares all previous rank is gone and the legion dead. Pure textbook hypocrisy.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Yes, but when Bile wants to pontificate and make a point he insists his subordinates call him that whilst at the same time whenever someone else does it he declares all previous rank is gone and the legion dead. Pure textbook hypocrisy.

It's not like that's the worst thing he does is it? As Chaos Marines go he's relatively nice.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Yes, but when Bile wants to pontificate and make a point he insists his subordinates call him that whilst at the same time whenever someone else does it he declares all previous rank is gone and the legion dead. Pure textbook hypocrisy.

Yeah a hypocrite, what does he care. If demanding to be called by his rank gets him what he wants then he’ll do it. The guy makes clocks out of skin, hypocrisy and manipulation is probably the best side of him.

I also full believe he was seduced/corruptedby slaneesh even if he doesn’t know or accept it. He said:

If a man dedicates his life to good deeds and the welfare of others, he will die unthanked and unremembered. If he exercises his genius bringing misery and death to billions, his name will echo down through the millennia for a hundred lifetimes. Infamy is always more preferable to ignominy.

That level of self obsession and arrogance and desire for adulation is all slaneesh, aswell as the atrocity he commits in a search for his own version of perfection