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Can't? None (other than knights). Shouldn't? Pretty much all of them. Taking a 2k Brigade inherently results in sub-optimal builds. Some armies such as Custodes can't run a brigade at 2k.

If you mean a minimum brigade, Guard can do it for less than 700 points.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Can't? None (other than knights). Shouldn't? Pretty much all of them. Taking a 2k Brigade inherently results in sub-optimal builds. Some armies such as Custodes can't run even a brigade at 2k.

If you mean a minimum brigade, Guard can do it for less than 700 points.

I mean genuinely can't take a 2k list in a single brigade as some people are complaining that they need multiple detachments to reach 2k, which I think is completely false.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Speak for yourself.

Oh good it's you. The only person more "Rah rah! GW can do no wrong!" at this board than old mate Kan. This oughtta be good.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Having tried a lot of games out there like Infinity, WarmaHordes, X-Wing, Bolt Action, etc.., I certainly came to 40K for having the best rules of anything currently on the market.

"Best rules of anything currently on the market". That's priceless man. Pure gold.

But hey, you know what they say, right? That which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence...

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Maybe not perfect, but certainly a Churchill-ian "the worst except for all the others".

Hmm... not really. If I want real rules crunch that basically always works, I'll play BattleTech. Yes, it doesn't have the cool terrain I love, and I can't play Tyranids, but at least LOS and range and movement and all that jazz is binary. BTech ain't balanced, not by a long shot, but perfect balance isn't possible anyway. I'll take imperfect balance any day. 40K has... weird balance, backed up by a group of people who have been at this so long that they should know better, yet somehow don't, and have (and likely still do) make rules design decisions based upon selling more miniatures rather than the actual health of the game.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Lol. Imagine playing a game and pursuing its evolution on the internet, when you're actually convinced it isn't the best and you could simply go get a (for you) better game off the shelve at any second. Now that sounds like some really twisted form of masochism.

Like I said, no one plays 40k for the rules. They play it for the setting, or the miniatures, or a combination of the two. No one's getting hyped up about the movement phase, or spends each turn just waiting for the moment when they can roll more armour saves.

Ice_can wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Can't? None (other than knights). Shouldn't? Pretty much all of them. Taking a 2k Brigade inherently results in sub-optimal builds. Some armies such as Custodes can't run even a brigade at 2k.

If you mean a minimum brigade, Guard can do it for less than 700 points.

I mean genuinely can't take a 2k list in a single brigade as some people are complaining that they need multiple detachments to reach 2k, which I think is completely false.

Since the last point adjustments, even Death Guard can take brigade that could be considered a decent army.

In addition, pretty much anyone who can't run a brigade can either just max out a battalion (like we did in previous editions) or just get a second detachment for CP. More decisions when building armies is good, right now 3 detachments are pretty much mandatory.

The general idea is good, let's see how they have implemented it.

Ice_can wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Can't? None (other than knights). Shouldn't? Pretty much all of them. Taking a 2k Brigade inherently results in sub-optimal builds. Some armies such as Custodes can't run even a brigade at 2k.

If you mean a minimum brigade, Guard can do it for less than 700 points.

I mean genuinely can't take a 2k list in a single brigade as some people are complaining that they need multiple detachments to reach 2k, which I think is completely false.

That's not what I said or meant. Especially given that we don't know if detachment structures will be the same. I'm just hoping that they haven't overcorrected to help out elite armies and end up penalising hordes as a result.

Ice_can wrote:
Which army can't actually fit enough units in a brigade to pass 2k points? MSU spam is going to be somewhat less of a thing now, but GW has never supported MSU spam, they just accidentally wrote rules that did.

Right, a brigade should give almost everyone tons of room to do what they want, but there are a few people who want no troops (some for good reasons, like a Ravenwing army, some for bad reasons, like "troops suck I want all heavies! Screw the narrative!") … those people would likely branch into one of the other options, depending on if they felt that a "troop tax" but full CP was better or if less CP but no troops "weighing them down" was better.

That'll come down to individual measures, how many CP are there, and what the generic strats are that we know exist but haven't seen yet.

Speculating on the unknown strats is going to be wild. There are a few we can trust, like the 1 CP reroll and 2 CP pass morale, but there may be others.

For instance, what if Overwatch becomes a 1 CP strat? "I'll pay 1 CP for this unit to go into Overwatch" has the potential to massively change things as not every unit will get to do it, only those you paid for at the right time.

"Hunker Down" for 1 CP give syou an additional +1 to your cover save … but what if it also means that unit can't shoot for a turn? Useful for anyone holding a point, not so much for your big guns.

"Take aim" for 1 CP - if this unit didn't moe, reroll 1's to hit in the shooting phase.

Etc etc etc.

Those are the things that we know the least about and, next to terrain, could change the battlefield the most. Detachments pulling away from CP means that you gotta get a gameplan early on, taking into account what you're after, and willhelp shape forces to look more like what GW wants on the table than "Just the good stuff".

Bonus: those units which have a variation of "If you have unit X, this unit doesn't cost a slot in your detachment" suddenly get a little better than before. Looking at you, Runtherd!

One night to think about the changes, and this is not Editon 8.5 as it may sounds first

a 180° turn in CP generation and force organisation is already big enough to make this a new game and not just an update
that there are still no adjustments for old profiles regarding the new core rules from 8th (as a new wound chart needs also an adjustment of S+T values) and changes to the "to hit" rules would need an adjustment to the BS values as well.
Now with Tanks and Monster changes incoming, without adjusting all profiles in the game to the new situation this will be a mess in the first 2 years until most factions got their new Codex

Need to wait for the written rules it is all about the details and maybe the Appendix is longer with more changes than expected, but as I know GW, the first book that is really adjusted for the new Edition will arrive 6-12 months after release of the core, and because it is written for it, it will be OP beyond a level that points can fix

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Having tried a lot of games out there like Infinity, WarmaHordes, X-Wing, Bolt Action, etc.., I certainly came to 40K for having the best rules of anything currently on the market.

So, what is 40k doing better than Bolt Action?

I can get that Infinity is too hard to understand/to learn, or that movement in X-Wing is too complicated, and WM/H needs too much math during the game.

So just talk about the rules that are on a similar level (40k is more based on warfare in WW1 so BA is the more modern one but on Platoon level it is similar enough) and nothing about that there are Aliens in one and Nazis in the other, nothing about the Setting just about the rules (as for Aliens we would talk about Gates of Antares which uses the same rules but with Aliens)

 Jidmah wrote:
Since the last point adjustments, even Death Guard can take brigade that could be considered a decent army.

In addition, pretty much anyone who can't run a brigade can either just max out a battalion (like we did in previous editions) or just get a second detachment for CP. More decisions when building armies is good, right now 3 detachments are pretty much mandatory.

The general idea is good, let's see how they have implemented it.

Complain was horde armies are screwed because by the time they have filled every slot in brigade they STILL need to take detachments and pay CP.

Is there army where that can really work? Orks can take brigade+others but is that what they could do to get more CP and more optimal units?

If army can fill brigade then that's fine. If you have to take suboptimal units a bit...well that's tradeoff between raw strength and CP rather than having everything with no drawbacks

A minor plus - having to buy detachments means rules like the Leman Russ tank squadron one actually serve a purpose.

If you can fit a Tank Commander and 15 Battle Tanks in a single Spearhead, so you're probably not going to need to purchase an unlock of a second one.

I probably missed this somewhere really obvious, but do we know when 9th is actually coming out or have they not said yet

Ice_can wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Can't? None (other than knights). Shouldn't? Pretty much all of them. Taking a 2k Brigade inherently results in sub-optimal builds. Some armies such as Custodes can't run even a brigade at 2k.

If you mean a minimum brigade, Guard can do it for less than 700 points.

I mean genuinely can't take a 2k list in a single brigade as some people are complaining that they need multiple detachments to reach 2k, which I think is completely false.

That doesn't matter. Most armies don't want to take the Mandatory Useless Units a brigade enforces.

The new edition will come and we will rejoice.

Then, after enough time has passed,
after enough of the flaws have been uncovered,
after codex after codex has created exception upon exception to the core mechanics,
eventually... we will reject it and cry for a new edition to start the cycle all over again.

 BaconCatBug wrote:


Round up of the Q&A

Thanks for that much appreciated - saved alot of trying to find actual information

tneva82 wrote:
Complain was horde armies are screwed because by the time they have filled every slot in brigade they STILL need to take detachments and pay CP.

Is there army where that can really work? Orks can take brigade+others but is that what they could do to get more CP and more optimal units?

I seriously doubt that any army can actually fill every slot in a brigade - that would be 5 HQ 12 Troops, 8 Elites, 5 FA and 5 HS.

Not to mention that horde armies tend to have cheap models, but expensive units.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Can't? None (other than knights). Shouldn't? Pretty much all of them. Taking a 2k Brigade inherently results in sub-optimal builds. Some armies such as Custodes can't run even a brigade at 2k.

If you mean a minimum brigade, Guard can do it for less than 700 points.

I mean genuinely can't take a 2k list in a single brigade as some people are complaining that they need multiple detachments to reach 2k, which I think is completely false.

That doesn't matter. Most armies don't want to take the Mandatory Useless Units a brigade enforces.

And thus they have to choose: (1) go with a battalion instead and spend CP to get an additional detachment to get the units they do want; or (2), take units that are less desirable but keep the CP.
Depending on what the player in question is trying to do with their army, there might be times option (2) is the path they choose.

Not that such a situtation should really happen for most armies even at 2000pts. Without the need to fish for CP, a battalion should probably be enough unless they absolutely need to run more than 3 FA/HS (assuming detachments don't change in regards to number of force organisation slots).

on this Command point thing, my idea for a knight lance benefits, but my pure Tempestus idea gets a serious run around and a potential removal of command instead of a gain.

whats got me wondering is the changes to strategic reserves, and how both GSC and tempestus use rules around that so heavily. how will they change?

yay for being on standby with all of this.. and valkyries are about t'go up.

How many command points do you think you will start with in a 2000 point game? I wish I could be like Las Vegas and gamble with the odds.

Well, some armies such as GSC just "need" a lot of detachments, both because they often need Vigilus stuff for some basic functionality and because many of their basic strats that make a given unit work are tied to specific faction, since these factions had no pre-established lore-identity and GW took the shortcut of creating sub-factions based on units (e.g. the GSC-bike-faction, the GSC-Aberrant-faction), thus making a synergistic army using multiple types of units much harder to work as a single sub-faction.

Twilight Pathways wrote:
I probably missed this somewhere really obvious, but do we know when 9th is actually coming out or have they not said yet

They haven't announced a date yet.

What we do know:
- Previews "start" in June on Warhammer Community.
- There's a newsletter contest for a 9th edition related prize that is worth 120 pounds and ships in July. Speculation is that it's the new starter box.

There's also two AOS armies that have been waiting for longer. I'd imagine GW will want to stick to the rough original order. So July or August would be my bet for 9th edition.

Of course this all depends on production, stock and shipping. We've no idea what that area is like and GW might not even fully know about production in terms of how much they will actally get out compared to predictions.

We also can't forget that second lockdowns could happen. UK being shutdown again will pause it; China locking down "might" slow things up etc....

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, some armies such as GSC just "need" a lot of detachments, both because they often need Vigilus stuff for some basic functionality and because many of their basic strats that make a given unit work are tied to specific faction, since these factions had no pre-established lore-identity and GW took the shortcut of creating sub-factions based on units (e.g. the GSC-bike-faction, the GSC-Aberrant-faction), thus making a synergistic army using multiple types of units much harder to work as a single sub-faction.

Yeah, it's almost like a pathetically tiny fraction of GSC units can get chapter tactics after you remove

-All vehicles
-All brood brother units (including stuff like Sentinels, which for some reason must be brood brothers...after all, Genestealer Cultists could totally steal and retrofit a scout vehicle with weapons, but they could never do the same thing to a Sentinel, incredibly common imperial vehicle used for many different jobs!)
-All Genestealers (???????) including the Patriarch, head of the whole cult (???????????????????????) Wouldn't make sense for those guys to gain any subfaction benefits!

If you're going to have a total of like...five non-character units that can actually gain a cult trait, why not just make the cult traits correspond to one particular unit? feth it!

I think it was 2 months from the reveal to release for 8th. About 6 weeks to the pre-orders.

So Mid/Late July would seem logical.

Can't really comment on detachments without knowing more. Intuitively though there is a concern if troops are not needed you are going to see more skews. But then its not like slotting 3 MSU troops units has been that limiting for many factions, aside from say Custodes and Knights being weird.

Bdrone wrote:
on this Command point thing, my idea for a knight lance benefits, but my pure Tempestus idea gets a serious run around and a potential removal of command instead of a gain.

whats got me wondering is the changes to strategic reserves, and how both GSC and tempestus use rules around that so heavily. how will they change?

yay for being on standby with all of this.. and valkyries are about t'go up.

Why are your scions loosing comand points you just take the same amount of scions in one detachment.

He's probably thinking he can't put 2000 points of Tempestus in a single Battalion nor can he field a Tempestus Brigade (since they lack Fast Attack and Heavy units).

 CKO wrote:
How many command points do you think you will start with in a 2000 point game? I wish I could be like Las Vegas and gamble with the odds.

My gut says 20, since they stated that "You get more" and they're adding a bunch of generic strats to the core book. I really think that the 1 Cp per 100 pts is going to be the rule, but, we'll see.

 alextroy wrote:
He's probably thinking he can't put 2000 points of Tempestus in a single Battalion nor can he field a Tempestus Brigade (since they lack Fast Attack and Heavy units).

Well a Battalion can push past 2000 points with scions plus valks, Tarox and vendettas/vultures.

 alextroy wrote:
He's probably thinking he can't put 2000 points of Tempestus in a single Battalion nor can he field a Tempestus Brigade (since they lack Fast Attack and Heavy units).

He technically can but if he does that they can't benefit from regimental doctrine.

Be interesting how the soup CP unlock works. Because surely it will be based on the number of different battle-forged detachments you have?

Could effect a lot of current armies massively if it does work like this. e.g. taking that word bearer psyker patrol with say your nightlords battalion

or that badmoon spearhead with your deathskull battalion. L32 etc is a common one but you'll find a lot of the more competitive lists a lot of the time hinge on this cross keyword play from the same book

I am feeling positive about the terrain hints they gave yesterday. Perhaps conventional terrain like "ruins" with windows and woods with trees will now block LOS through them - so the return of Area Terrain (but called Obscuring Terrain)? This might stop some of the weird ITC spectacles of Magic Boxes and those bizarre Knight-sized L-shaped pieces with no windows that you can assault through but cannot shoot through. If they bring in something like "garrisoning" where a unit can shoot out of terrain and can in turn be shot at but that terrain blocks LOS through then I feel we will be in a good place.

I doubt that additional detachments from the same Codex will cost a prohibitive amount of CPs - I would guess something like 1 CP out of a pool that I imagine will be between 10 and 20. I think its the detachments taken from other Codexes that will cost more. I think that this will really help list construction. Want lots of AM troops supported by a Knight? Go for it - but pay up in CPs. Want an Elite army drawn from a single Codex that depends on CPs? Go for it! Want Troops for their own sake? Go for it! When we consider that CPs and detachments were new to 8th Edition I am not surprised that we are seeing an evolution in their implementation.

Stopping the stacking of modifiers to hit is a good thing. There were some extreme/frustrating builds out there that are now nerfed.

All in all a revealing Q&A yesterday despite the humours glitches in the microphone - who knows what secrets he divulged when his microphone stopped working?!?

Wakshaani wrote:

 CKO wrote:
How many command points do you think you will start with in a 2000 point game? I wish I could be like Las Vegas and gamble with the odds.

My gut says 20, since they stated that "You get more" and they're adding a bunch of generic strats to the core book. I really think that the 1 Cp per 100 pts is going to be the rule, but, we'll see.

I was wondering this too, but I really hope it's not 20 at 2000pts. Strategems should be perks that can help you occasionally each game, not a reliable crutch you get to do every single turn (which for many armies it has been throughout 8th). Heck, I remember playing pure Ravenwing at start of 8th with just 5CP, lol.

I'm really hoping it's not more than 15 at 2000pts, or if it is 20, we drop down to 1750pt games to keep it at 15CP.