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the_scotsman wrote:
Man alive there better be something real real good to incentivize taking units as a horde.

"Hordes, they're great! None of your dudes can fight, vehicles will score max hits on you automatically - enjoy those Heavy 12 Thunderfire cannons - and now you can't tie things up in melee anymore!

Hormagants, ork boyz, cultists, GSC - you just paint those things so the people you're playing against can feel cool while they make you shovel them off the board, right?"

Perhaps use them for securing objectives instead?

It's a new way of playing. Who finds it any fun when 20 cultists with just their bare hands ties up a tank an entire game because the tank can't defend itself. Boyz with nobs with powerklaws (as I assume all ork nobz take them) will still kill that tank as fast, you'd just better do it before their tshirt have to save them from melee range firing.

I still miss the old days of tank shocking units that tried to bog you down into melee. It didn't always work but at least you were never bogged down (unless of course you took enough damage to cripple your movement).

the_scotsman wrote:
Man alive there better be something real real good to incentivize taking units as a horde.

"Hordes, they're great! None of your dudes can fight, vehicles will score max hits on you automatically - enjoy those Heavy 12 Thunderfire cannons - and now you can't tie things up in melee anymore!

Hormagants, ork boyz, cultists, GSC - you just paint those things so the people you're playing against can feel cool while they make you shovel them off the board, right?"

Why'd you pick an NPC faction if you didn't want to be play the NPC?s If you want to be the hero pick a hero faction. Might I suggest Primaris Space Marines?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Gives Ghaz an extra 12 5+ str 5 -1ap attacks as well

Hitting on 5s, so not particularly good.

Did they elaborate on Engagement Range at all? Is that the maximum distance you can melee with?

Pretty sure extra Dakka where there was none before, and counting Dakka Dakka Dakka in is only a boost?

Sure, it's better. But not by much.

You kill an extra...

12 shots
4 hits, 2 extra shots for .67 extra hits
3.11 wounds against T3-4
2.59 GEQ

And if the opponent is feeling cheeky, they can technically throw Take Cover on them to improve their save.

Let me put it this way-it's a buff, but it's a minor one that, with what we know now, doesn't really fix Ghaz. That being said! I have heard (no idea on the accuracy) that character rules are changing, which could make Ghaz better relative to other characters.

jivardi wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Man alive there better be something real real good to incentivize taking units as a horde.

"Hordes, they're great! None of your dudes can fight, vehicles will score max hits on you automatically - enjoy those Heavy 12 Thunderfire cannons - and now you can't tie things up in melee anymore!

Hormagants, ork boyz, cultists, GSC - you just paint those things so the people you're playing against can feel cool while they make you shovel them off the board, right?"

Perhaps use them for securing objectives instead?

It's a new way of playing. Who finds it any fun when 20 cultists with just their bare hands ties up a tank an entire game because the tank can't defend itself. Boyz with nobs with powerklaws (as I assume all ork nobz take them) will still kill that tank as fast, you'd just better do it before their tshirt have to save them from melee range firing.

I still miss the old days of tank shocking units that tried to bog you down into melee. It didn't always work but at least you were never bogged down (unless of course you took enough damage to cripple your movement).

Yeah no. Power klaws are an absolute joke. 1.6 wounds on average to a tank with a nob with a klaw, 10 boyz (if they can all get within 1", lol) will do an average of about 2-3 wounds to your normal vehicle, with a klaw nob. and with 6pt cultists, who the hell knows what an ork boy will cost in this edition?

Silly nerd, ork boyz are for apocalypse! In 40k you're supposed to take knights and leviathans and land raiders!!!!!!

Yeah, Powerklaws aren't as deadly as they used to be.
Its only D3 damage from a model with 3 attacks and WS3+. Even if you roll hot you're only going to deal 9 damage.

That's not enough to kill most tanks. If it can't even one shot a vehicle while rolling hot, what good is it going to be on average? Its just not cost effective.

They're 9 points. Of course you're not going to kill a tank with one of them in one turn. If you could, it'd be pretty overpowered.

jivardi wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Man alive there better be something real real good to incentivize taking units as a horde.

"Hordes, they're great! None of your dudes can fight, vehicles will score max hits on you automatically - enjoy those Heavy 12 Thunderfire cannons - and now you can't tie things up in melee anymore!

Hormagants, ork boyz, cultists, GSC - you just paint those things so the people you're playing against can feel cool while they make you shovel them off the board, right?"

Perhaps use them for securing objectives instead?

It's a new way of playing. Who finds it any fun when 20 cultists with just their bare hands ties up a tank an entire game because the tank can't defend itself. Boyz with nobs with powerklaws (as I assume all ork nobz take them) will still kill that tank as fast, you'd just better do it before their tshirt have to save them from melee range firing.

I still miss the old days of tank shocking units that tried to bog you down into melee. It didn't always work but at least you were never bogged down (unless of course you took enough damage to cripple your movement).

Oh I too miss the old days of tank shock, death or glory, ramming vehicles and whacky damage table. That was fun times, uncertainty and epic moments.

Currently we have tagging / clicking into melee, you can't do anything, you can't shoot.
And health point counters, like life point bars in video games. And flat damage, damage per turn.
Yeah, sigh...

yukishiro1 wrote:
They're 9 points. Of course you're not going to kill a tank with one of them in one turn. If you could, it'd be pretty overpowered.

Isn't it 13 points?
And yeah, if on average it killed a tank in one turn it would be a problem, but it doesn't do that if you roll really luckily. You'd expect more from a weapon that was traditionally the Orks' solution to hard targets.

yukishiro1 wrote:
They're 9 points. Of course you're not going to kill a tank with one of them in one turn. If you could, it'd be pretty overpowered.

I never said they should. I was responding to someone who claimed a unit of ork boyz would deeeefinitely totes kill a tank even with 1" engagement range and their gakky gakky melee stats.

yukishiro1 wrote:
They're 9 points. Of course you're not going to kill a tank with one of them in one turn. If you could, it'd be pretty overpowered.

yeah, was just coming on to say something similar. You shouldn't expect to kill a tank with a single powerklaw or fist etc. You need specialist tank killers to kill....say, tanks? maybe orks will just have to look at some other units in their codex than massed boyz (although I'm sure they will still have their place).

Yeah, you're right. I had assumed they got updated to be the same cost as power fists. Guess it's another case of "space marines are just better."

But the basic point still stands. Of course a 13 point weapon isn't going to let you one-shot tanks.

I wonder if they clarify what it means if the unit makes a normal move. Not every model has to move in a unit. What if the heavy weapon model remains still ? Does the entire unit count as moved, when only one model moves ?

the_scotsman wrote:

jivardi wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Man alive there better be something real real good to incentivize taking units as a horde.

"Hordes, they're great! None of your dudes can fight, vehicles will score max hits on you automatically - enjoy those Heavy 12 Thunderfire cannons - and now you can't tie things up in melee anymore!

Hormagants, ork boyz, cultists, GSC - you just paint those things so the people you're playing against can feel cool while they make you shovel them off the board, right?"

Perhaps use them for securing objectives instead?

It's a new way of playing. Who finds it any fun when 20 cultists with just their bare hands ties up a tank an entire game because the tank can't defend itself. Boyz with nobs with powerklaws (as I assume all ork nobz take them) will still kill that tank as fast, you'd just better do it before their tshirt have to save them from melee range firing.

I still miss the old days of tank shocking units that tried to bog you down into melee. It didn't always work but at least you were never bogged down (unless of course you took enough damage to cripple your movement).

Yeah no. Power klaws are an absolute joke. 1.6 wounds on average to a tank with a nob with a klaw, 10 boyz (if they can all get within 1", lol) will do an average of about 2-3 wounds to your normal vehicle, with a klaw nob. and with 6pt cultists, who the hell knows what an ork boy will cost in this edition?

Silly nerd, ork boyz are for apocalypse! In 40k you're supposed to take knights and leviathans and land raiders!!!!!!

So again, don't use chaff to kill tanks. Hormogaunts were not meant to peel tanks open, that job was always for carnifexes and other TMC's, maybe 'stealers. Every army in the game has tank and mc killing units that aren't chaff units and for good reason.

Use 20 cultists to secure an objective or 12 (or whatever max size is) ork boyz. Any unit wanting to complete an objective in 9th MUST forfeit all other actions to do so. Cultists shooting is not missed for 1 turn; use ork boyz defensively for holding an objective.

Not being able to destroy vehicles with impunity is not a bad thing at all for the game. I suppose next you are going to complain about vehicles and MC's not suffering -1 to shoot when moving?

the_scotsman wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
They're 9 points. Of course you're not going to kill a tank with one of them in one turn. If you could, it'd be pretty overpowered.

I never said they should. I was responding to someone who claimed a unit of ork boyz would deeeefinitely totes kill a tank even with 1" engagement range and their gakky gakky melee stats.

Was responding to the person who said they aren't points efficient cause they don't kill tanks in one round.

Did they actually confirm that that 1" engagement range is as crazy and stupid as it sounds? I have a hard time believing even GW would be so stupid as to reduce the amount of models that can fight in melee by so much.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Man alive there better be something real real good to incentivize taking units as a horde.

"Hordes, they're great! None of your dudes can fight, vehicles will score max hits on you automatically - enjoy those Heavy 12 Thunderfire cannons - and now you can't tie things up in melee anymore!

Hormagants, ork boyz, cultists, GSC - you just paint those things so the people you're playing against can feel cool while they make you shovel them off the board, right?"

Why'd you pick an NPC faction if you didn't want to be play the NPC?s If you want to be the hero pick a hero faction. Might I suggest Primaris Space Marines?

My auspex scan senses quite a bit of salty sarcasm.

Not that far from truth.

We don't know that models can only fight within the 1' engagement range, do we?

It may just be used for determining shooting purposes and if a unit is melee combat.

yukishiro1 wrote:
They're 9 points. Of course you're not going to kill a tank with one of them in one turn. If you could, it'd be pretty overpowered.

They're 9 points, plus the cost of the Nob carrying it, plus the costs involved with getting into close combat with an important tank.

I mean, Centurion Assault Drills are FREE, and if they're on a 4 attack sergeant, they can one-round a Leman Russ even OFF the charge. On the charge, you've got more than a 10% chance of wrecking a Leman Russ with that one model, with absolutely no bonuses other than the singular extra attack on the charge.

Yeah I am assuming it is just an awkward, misleading (Hi GW!) way of restating the rule as it already exists, and that you'll still be able to fight as long as you're either in "Engagement Range (TM)" or within 1" of a model in your unit that's within Engagement Range (TM).

Anything else would be completely mental.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
They're 9 points. Of course you're not going to kill a tank with one of them in one turn. If you could, it'd be pretty overpowered.

They're 9 points, plus the cost of the Nob carrying it, plus the costs involved with getting into close combat with an important tank.

I mean, Centurion Assault Drills are FREE, and if they're on a 4 attack sergeant, they can one-round a Leman Russ even OFF the charge. On the charge, you've got more than a 10% chance of wrecking a Leman Russ with that one model, with absolutely no bonuses other than the singular extra attack on the charge.

They aren't free, they're baked into the cost of the model.

One of the best thing about power fists/klaws/etc is that they are usually insulated by a bunch of cheaper troops, so your chances of losing those points before they can do anything are much lower.

 Sasori wrote:
We don't know that models can only fight within the 1' engagement range, do we?

It may just be used for determining shooting purposes and if a unit is melee combat.

We don't for sure. It may be that Cut Them Down just works completely differently from regular melee combat.

I personally find it a little bit unlikely, but I really do want any excuse to believe melee units aren't just totally hosed at this point, particularly the non hyperelite superdeadly variety of melee unit.

It does certainly make Cut Them Down utterly, completely useless junk, as opposed to only mostly completely useless junk.

I'm guessing "engagement range" is fancy term for "units must be within 1" of each other to be considered in range for melee".

Like how you have to be within 1" now to fight in melee even though units get 3" (or 6") pile in moves and that it's not just models within 1" that get to fight.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
They're 9 points. Of course you're not going to kill a tank with one of them in one turn. If you could, it'd be pretty overpowered.

They're 9 points, plus the cost of the Nob carrying it, plus the costs involved with getting into close combat with an important tank.

I mean, Centurion Assault Drills are FREE, and if they're on a 4 attack sergeant, they can one-round a Leman Russ even OFF the charge. On the charge, you've got more than a 10% chance of wrecking a Leman Russ with that one model, with absolutely no bonuses other than the singular extra attack on the charge.

They aren't free, they're baked into the cost of the model.

One of the best thing about power fists/klaws/etc is that they are usually insulated by a bunch of cheaper troops, so your chances of losing those points before they can do anything are much lower.

If we assume Warpath or some other +1 Attack buff to give the Nob 4 attacks, want to know the odds of them one-rounding a Leman Russ?

It's .01%. One percent of one percent.

That's one THOUSAND times less likely than a single Centurion Assault Sergeant taking down a Leman Russ.

Of course you're not going to oneshot a leman russ with a powerklaw nob. I honestly don't get what point you think you're making here. That assault centurions are better at killing tanks in melee than boyz? Uh...yeah?

jivardi wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

jivardi wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Man alive there better be something real real good to incentivize taking units as a horde.

"Hordes, they're great! None of your dudes can fight, vehicles will score max hits on you automatically - enjoy those Heavy 12 Thunderfire cannons - and now you can't tie things up in melee anymore!

Hormagants, ork boyz, cultists, GSC - you just paint those things so the people you're playing against can feel cool while they make you shovel them off the board, right?"

Perhaps use them for securing objectives instead?

It's a new way of playing. Who finds it any fun when 20 cultists with just their bare hands ties up a tank an entire game because the tank can't defend itself. Boyz with nobs with powerklaws (as I assume all ork nobz take them) will still kill that tank as fast, you'd just better do it before their tshirt have to save them from melee range firing.

I still miss the old days of tank shocking units that tried to bog you down into melee. It didn't always work but at least you were never bogged down (unless of course you took enough damage to cripple your movement).

Yeah no. Power klaws are an absolute joke. 1.6 wounds on average to a tank with a nob with a klaw, 10 boyz (if they can all get within 1", lol) will do an average of about 2-3 wounds to your normal vehicle, with a klaw nob. and with 6pt cultists, who the hell knows what an ork boy will cost in this edition?

Silly nerd, ork boyz are for apocalypse! In 40k you're supposed to take knights and leviathans and land raiders!!!!!!

So again, don't use chaff to kill tanks. Hormogaunts were not meant to peel tanks open, that job was always for carnifexes and other TMC's, maybe 'stealers. Every army in the game has tank and mc killing units that aren't chaff units and for good reason.

Use 20 cultists to secure an objective or 12 (or whatever max size is) ork boyz. Any unit wanting to complete an objective in 9th MUST forfeit all other actions to do so. Cultists shooting is not missed for 1 turn; use ork boyz defensively for holding an objective.

Not being able to destroy vehicles with impunity is not a bad thing at all for the game. I suppose next you are going to complain about vehicles and MC's not suffering -1 to shoot when moving?

I think you might be surprised to find that the average Ork player might want to actually use Boyz in combat with some degree of effectiveness, and may not be entirely satisfied with the "just use your ork boyz to stand there on the battlefield scoring objectives" solution.

People may want the iconic troop choice of their army, whether that be ork boyz, tactical marines, daemons, chaos space marines, guardians, or whatever, to be able to accomplish something in a game of warhammer 40,000 without having to play apocalypse rules for them to be worth any kind of anything.

I'm not asking for a min squad of ork boyz to be able to kill a leman russ. I'm just hoping that there is some incentive to bring units of something that are anywhere near the "horde limit" of whatever number they put in for max hits from blast weapons.

Because otherwise why have that rule in the first place? Nobody's going to hand you a horde to slaughter just so you can feel cool with your blast weapons. if you want that rule to exist and do anything, there needs to be some incentive for someone to actually put a horde down on the table for you to shoot.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Of course you're not going to oneshot a leman russ with a powerklaw nob. I honestly don't get what point you think you're making here.

That a single Centurion can do it, if not consistently, not unheard of, with no buffs, for 42 points. (52 is the more common loadout, since Hurricane Bolters make them ALSO great at clearing hordes, but they can be as cheap as 42.)

But a Nob that's been buffed with an extra attack gets to do it one in 10,000 times.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Of course you're not going to oneshot a leman russ with a powerklaw nob. I honestly don't get what point you think you're making here. That assault centurions are better at killing tanks in melee than boyz? Uh...yeah?

I was responding to this comment:

"Boyz with nobs with powerklaws (as I assume all ork nobz take them) will still kill that tank as fast, you'd just better do it before their tshirt have to save them from melee range firing."

that is all. Holy crap, why do people want to believe that responding to a strawman and pointing out how stupid it is means you hold that strawman belief yourself.

 JNAProductions wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Of course you're not going to oneshot a leman russ with a powerklaw nob. I honestly don't get what point you think you're making here.

That a single Centurion can do it, if not consistently, not unheard of, with no buffs, for 42 points. (52 is the more common loadout, since Hurricane Bolters make them ALSO great at clearing hordes, but they can be as cheap as 42.)

But a Nob that's been buffed with an extra attack gets to do it one in 10,000 times.

Ok? And knights are better at shooting tanks than guardsmen?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Of course you're not going to oneshot a leman russ with a powerklaw nob. I honestly don't get what point you think you're making here. That assault centurions are better at killing tanks in melee than boyz? Uh...yeah?

I was responding to this comment:

"Boyz with nobs with powerklaws (as I assume all ork nobz take them) will still kill that tank as fast, you'd just better do it before their tshirt have to save them from melee range firing."

that is all. Holy crap, why do people want to believe that responding to a strawman and pointing out how stupid it is means you hold that strawman belief yourself.

Again, not responding to you.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It does certainly make Cut Them Down utterly, completely useless junk, as opposed to only mostly completely useless junk.

So you get free shots on units falling back out of combat and that's bad? So I guess even though you need 6's (most units anyway) to hit in Overwatch that Overwatch is completely utterly useless?

If you don't want to spend 1 CP to maybe pick off another model or 2 voluntarily leaving melee than don't use it. It's not always going to be good or work as intended but when you play a game that uses random dice rolls to determine outcomes nothing is certain.

I personally think that the rule for voluntarily leaving combat and involuntarily leaving combat (broken morale) should be like it was in days of old. You fail morale or choose to run you and your opponent dice off, if your opponent rolls higher than you for fall back distance your unit is wiped off the board.

That way I can wipe out 20 hormogaunts with 5 pox walkers and not be stuck in melee for 4 turns.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Ok? And knights are better at shooting tanks than guardsmen?

A Nob is 27 points with a Power Klaw, Choppa, and Stikkbombs.

If we assume that being in two bodies of T4 4+ W2 each is worth the same as one body of T5 2+ W4 (which it isn't, but whatever) then 2 Nobs is just 2 points more than a Hurricane Bolter Assault Centurion. Close enough for government work.

The two Nobs have 6 attacks.
3 hits.
2 wounds.
5/3 failed saves.
10/3 damage, or 3.33

A single Centurion has 3 attacks (4 on the charge, but we'll ignore that)
2 hits
4/3 wounds
4/3 failed saves
4 damage, or 4.00

So, a single Centurion is worth more than two Nobs in close combat against their favored targets. Technically the Nob has a Choppa, which adds about .07 points of damage per nob, but that's paltry. The Centurion ALSO has 12 shots that hit on 3s. And two flamers. And is more durable.

Do you not see the issue?

jivardi wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
It does certainly make Cut Them Down utterly, completely useless junk, as opposed to only mostly completely useless junk.

So you get free shots on units falling back out of combat and that's bad? So I guess even though you need 6's (most units anyway) to hit in Overwatch that Overwatch is completely utterly useless?

If you don't want to spend 1 CP to maybe pick off another model or 2 voluntarily leaving melee than don't use it. It's not always going to be good or work as intended but when you play a game that uses random dice rolls to determine outcomes nothing is certain.

I personally think that the rule for voluntarily leaving combat and involuntarily leaving combat (broken morale) should be like it was in days of old. You fail morale or choose to run you and your opponent dice off, if your opponent rolls higher than you for fall back distance your unit is wiped off the board.

That way I can wipe out 20 hormogaunts with 5 pox walkers and not be stuck in melee for 4 turns.

Hey I said before if they change Overwatch to a stratagem you can use once per turn for 1cp and every model in the defending unit rolls a die, on a 6 they get a MW then fair's fair man, I'll take my crap rule and you take yours.

I just love seeing the double standard at play where people think Overwatch is cool as a completely free, bonus universal rule that is always on at all times and everyone always gets, but the melee equivalent has to be A) worse damage in 99% of situations than a free attack where 6s hit, and B) a stratagem that costs CP and 1 unit gets to use once per turn.