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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Recent space marine units that have blast weapons beyond regular frag grenades:

inceptors
aggressors
eliminators
Repulsor Executioner
Repulsor
Redemptor Dreadnought
intercessors

Also worth noting:

predator autocannons
vindicators
whirlwinds
thunderfires
anything with a plasma cannon, anything with a missile launcher, etc.

Seems like plenty. Certainly more than, for example, Eldar or Dark Eldar or Tau.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It could also be that Blast weapons turn out to be relatively rare.

Eldar don’t have many from a brief thinking. D-Cannons were name checked, but other than it’s Grenades and Missile Launchers? Possibly the Prism Cannon on the right setting?

Guard? Yeah they’re gonna have loads, because Guard!

Orks? Squig Launcha, Stikkbommz. And then memory fails.

Blast Weapons May also come at a price premium. We just don’t know yet.


I think you could be right. Some people here have been focused on the worst-case scenario of "OMG hordes are going to be taking 12 hits all the time!!", but those weapons are relatively rare and tend to be mounted on super-heavy platforms like Knights or Baneblades. They will rarely be cheap, at least.

Most of the time, horde units are now going to be seeing 6 shots instead of D6 from weapons like grenades or missile launchers, which isn't a huge difference to before. Flamer-style weapons aren't changed so far as we know, and will still do fully random hits. Hordes still have an incentive to take full sized units because many already have special rules that encourage it, such as Ork Boyz or Tyranid Hormaguants.

In fact I think the unit types hardest hit by this change will large squads of medium-heavy infantry, particularly marines. High-strength, multi-wound weapons with D3 or D6 shots are quite prevalent compared to 2D6/3D6 blast weapons. Suddenly things like plasma or venom cannons are now always doing 3 shots on any full size squad of Primaris marines. This encourages use of MSU / combat squads, but the big downside there is that a marine player will be getting half the benefit from any stratagems or physic boosts on those units compared to before.

I reckon the end meta result will be to push us into a choice of elite MSU infantry or large horde infantry, with little in between.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/11 11:42:29


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 xttz wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It could also be that Blast weapons turn out to be relatively rare.

Eldar don’t have many from a brief thinking. D-Cannons were name checked, but other than it’s Grenades and Missile Launchers? Possibly the Prism Cannon on the right setting?

Guard? Yeah they’re gonna have loads, because Guard!

Orks? Squig Launcha, Stikkbommz. And then memory fails.

Blast Weapons May also come at a price premium. We just don’t know yet.


I think you could be right. Some people here have been focused on the worst-case scenario of "OMG hordes are going to be taking 12 hits all the time!!", but those weapons are relatively rare and tend to be mounted on super-heavy platforms like Knights or Baneblades. They will rarely be cheap, at least.

Most of the time, horde units are now going to be seeing 6 shots instead of D6 from weapons like grenades or missile launchers, which isn't a huge difference to before. Flamer-style weapons aren't changed so far as we know, and will still do fully random hits. Hordes still have an incentive to take full sized units because many already have special rules that encourage it, such as Ork Boyz or Tyranid Hormaguants.

In fact I think the unit types hardest hit by this change will large squads of medium-heavy infantry, particularly marines. High-strength, multi-wound weapons with D3 or D6 shots are quite prevalent compared to 2D6/3D6 blast weapons. Suddenly things like plasma or venom cannons are now always doing 3 shots on any full size squad of Primaris marines. This encourages use of MSU / combat squads, but the big downside there is that a marine player will be getting half the benefit from any stratagems or physic boosts on those units compared to before.

I reckon the end meta result will be to push us into a choice of elite MSU infantry or large horde infantry, with little in between.


Yeah, it's not like there's anything that you'd take as a dedicated antihorde infantry platform that would make it extremely punishing to bring large blobs of infantry like

thunderfire cannons
whirlwinds
night spinners
shadow spinners? The little ones that are currently tournament meta.
mortar teams
wyverns
mek gunz

Lots of these 'sit in the back, lob shots from out of LOS' units are currently or have been in the past tournament-level competitive. We did not need this pointless boost to their power at doing the exact job they already do extremely well.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in au
Liche Priest Hierophant







Non-FW Marine weapons that I expect will be Blast or have at least one Blast profile:
- Missile Launcher
- Cyclone Missile Launcher
- Typhoon Missile Launcher
- Bellicatus Missile Launcher
- Deathwind Missile Launcher
- Thunderfire Cannon
- Whirlwind Missile Launcher
- Demolisher Cannon
- Frag Grenades
- Astartes Grenade Launcher
- Fragstorm Grenade Launcher
- Plasma Cannon
- Macro Plasma Incinerator
- Plasma Exterminator (?)

So at least 13-14. There's even more including FW (Scorpius Whirlwind and Quad Cannon come to mind), but it's entirely possible those aren't included in the 174 that will be in the main rulebook.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Non-FW Marine weapons that I expect will be Blast or have at least one Blast profile:
- Missile Launcher
- Cyclone Missile Launcher
- Typhoon Missile Launcher
- Bellicatus Missile Launcher
- Deathwind Missile Launcher
- Whirlwind Missile Launcher


Space marines? Hey space marines? Can we talk, about your guns, and how many you have vs how many you maybe need?

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Non-FW Marine weapons that I expect will be Blast or have at least one Blast profile:
- Missile Launcher
- Cyclone Missile Launcher
- Typhoon Missile Launcher
- Bellicatus Missile Launcher
- Deathwind Missile Launcher
- Thunderfire Cannon
- Whirlwind Missile Launcher
- Demolisher Cannon
- Frag Grenades
- Astartes Grenade Launcher
- Fragstorm Grenade Launcher
- Plasma Cannon
- Macro Plasma Incinerator
- Plasma Exterminator (?)

So at least 13-14. There's even more including FW (Scorpius Whirlwind and Quad Cannon come to mind), but it's entirely possible those aren't included in the 174 that will be in the main rulebook.


What criteria did you apply in making this list?

I'm mostly assuming that weapons with both RANDOM High # of shots + High strength are assumed to be blast weapons. Presumably for useful delta comparison of the increased lethality this could present to hordes, we should exclude from analysis weapons with a FIXED high number of shots?

Note that my criteria does inadvertently exclude weapons which in prior editions used blast templates (e.g., various Necron small blasts, etc.).
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Plasma pistol
plasma gun
plasma exterminator
plasma cannon
assault plasma incinerator
plasma incinerator
heavy plasma incinerator
macro plasma incinerator
twin macro plasma incinerator

Hey space marines, are you OK?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sieGermans wrote:
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Non-FW Marine weapons that I expect will be Blast or have at least one Blast profile:
- Missile Launcher
- Cyclone Missile Launcher
- Typhoon Missile Launcher
- Bellicatus Missile Launcher
- Deathwind Missile Launcher
- Thunderfire Cannon
- Whirlwind Missile Launcher
- Demolisher Cannon
- Frag Grenades
- Astartes Grenade Launcher
- Fragstorm Grenade Launcher
- Plasma Cannon
- Macro Plasma Incinerator
- Plasma Exterminator (?)

So at least 13-14. There's even more including FW (Scorpius Whirlwind and Quad Cannon come to mind), but it's entirely possible those aren't included in the 174 that will be in the main rulebook.


What criteria did you apply in making this list?

I'm mostly assuming that weapons with both RANDOM High # of shots + High strength are assumed to be blast weapons. Presumably for useful delta comparison of the increased lethality this could present to hordes, we should exclude from analysis weapons with a FIXED high number of shots?

Note that my criteria does inadvertently exclude weapons which in prior editions used blast templates (e.g., various Necron small blasts, etc.).


They said it's pretty much any weapon with a random number of shots that make a to-hit roll. they specifically called out frag grenades, so it is not just things with high strength.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/11 12:01:00


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Add a "horde" discount like in AoS and make that you can only kill visible models in a unit and hordes would be viable even with this changes.

Something like (With current points, as an example). Boyz could be 7ppm but if you take 30 (This work best in AoS because you buy units in blocks of models) instead of costing 210 points they cost 180 or something, so 6ppm.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in au
Liche Priest Hierophant







sieGermans wrote:
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Non-FW Marine weapons that I expect will be Blast or have at least one Blast profile:
- Missile Launcher
- Cyclone Missile Launcher
- Typhoon Missile Launcher
- Bellicatus Missile Launcher
- Deathwind Missile Launcher
- Thunderfire Cannon
- Whirlwind Missile Launcher
- Demolisher Cannon
- Frag Grenades
- Astartes Grenade Launcher
- Fragstorm Grenade Launcher
- Plasma Cannon
- Macro Plasma Incinerator
- Plasma Exterminator (?)

So at least 13-14. There's even more including FW (Scorpius Whirlwind and Quad Cannon come to mind), but it's entirely possible those aren't included in the 174 that will be in the main rulebook.


What criteria did you apply in making this list?

I'm mostly assuming that weapons with both RANDOM High # of shots + High strength are assumed to be blast weapons. Presumably for useful delta comparison of the increased lethality this could present to hordes, we should exclude from analysis weapons with a FIXED high number of shots?

Note that my criteria does inadvertently exclude weapons which in prior editions used blast templates (e.g., various Necron small blasts, etc.).

Basically extrapolating from examples they've given. If Frag Grenades are Blast, then it's pretty likely that any and all weapons with a profile for firing Frag Grenades or Frag Missiles will also be Blast. They also all used to be Blast weapons (the ones that existed in 6th & 7th, anyway).
Whirlwind, Demolisher & Thunderfire not being Blast would among the dumbest things ever to happen in 40k.
The Plasma Cannon used to be a small Blast weapon, and currently has random shots. It is of course possible that it won't be Blast, but that seems unlikely to me.
The Macro Plasma Incinerator is basically a ginat Plasma Cannon, and the Plasma Exterminator is a shorter-ranged Assault Pasma Cannon.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gadzilla666 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
The problem is when GW has been pretty much only previewing rules that benefit marines, talking about how great marines are going to be, saying how the armies people are playing have gotten so much more elite, in the middle of a marine meta that makes the most uninteractive, dull tau meta look like amazing fun in comparison.


how many blast weapons do Marines even have? compared to say... the Guard, not a whole lot I wager

No, but they are uniquely equipped to avoid blast weapons with their ability to break their infantry units into combat squads. Playing a guard list with lots of blast weapons? Break your 10 man squads into 5s, break your 6 man squads of aggressors and the like into 3s. Can anyone else do that? Maybe they can and I'm forgetting.

Just checked Tactical flexability only works on full 10 model units and is done in the marine players movement phase so 1 unit per turn.
   
Made in gb
Spawn of Chaos




Wales

Ice_can wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
The problem is when GW has been pretty much only previewing rules that benefit marines, talking about how great marines are going to be, saying how the armies people are playing have gotten so much more elite, in the middle of a marine meta that makes the most uninteractive, dull tau meta look like amazing fun in comparison.


how many blast weapons do Marines even have? compared to say... the Guard, not a whole lot I wager

No, but they are uniquely equipped to avoid blast weapons with their ability to break their infantry units into combat squads. Playing a guard list with lots of blast weapons? Break your 10 man squads into 5s, break your 6 man squads of aggressors and the like into 3s. Can anyone else do that? Maybe they can and I'm forgetting.

Just checked Tactical flexability only works on full 10 model units and is done in the marine players movement phase so 1 unit per turn.


All marine armies have the combat squads special rule allowing all units with said rule to be split into two squads and most units also have a minimum number that’s five or less as well. So it’s every unit at the start of the game

Death to the False Emperor!

 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Ninja'd by MPJ.

Only it's not "all marine armies", it's all loyalist marine armies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/11 12:32:00


 
   
Made in gb
Spawn of Chaos




Wales

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ninja'd by MPJ.

Only it's not "all marine armies", it's all loyalist marine armies.


Good point. Though I doubt many would think CSM would get good rules anyway haha

Death to the False Emperor!

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




So, as a quick experiment i went through Battlescribe noting down which weapons i'd expect to make the move to "Blast" weapons....


I gave up after looking at Marines, Guard, Sisters, Admech and Custodes.

Including FW models (and duplicating some weapons across codices - i.e. frag grenades and missile launchers) i got a total of 90 weapons.

I would carry on with the rest of the factions, but, frankly i cba.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Kdash wrote:
So, as a quick experiment i went through Battlescribe noting down which weapons i'd expect to make the move to "Blast" weapons....


I gave up after looking at Marines, Guard, Sisters, Admech and Custodes.

Including FW models (and duplicating some weapons across codices - i.e. frag grenades and missile launchers) i got a total of 90 weapons.

I would carry on with the rest of the factions, but, frankly i cba.

Probably duplicates for the Copy Pasta Marines too. They probably consider the Vindicator from Death Guard different to the Vindicator from Blood Angels different to the Vindicator from Dark Angels and so on.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Kdash wrote:
So, as a quick experiment i went through Battlescribe noting down which weapons i'd expect to make the move to "Blast" weapons....


I gave up after looking at Marines, Guard, Sisters, Admech and Custodes.

Including FW models (and duplicating some weapons across codices - i.e. frag grenades and missile launchers) i got a total of 88 weapons. (didnt realise Custodes and Admech don't get grenades lol)

I would carry on with the rest of the factions, but, frankly i cba.


Criteria was simply anything with a random number of shots.

Spoiler:

Marines
Frag Grenades
Heavy Plasma Cannon
Conversion Beamer
Missile Launcher
Frag Storm Grenade Launcher
Grenade Harness
Magna-Melta Cannon FW
Macro Plasma Incinerator
Cyclone Missile Launcher
Aiolos Missile Launcher FW
Typhoon Missile Launcher
Twin Rotary Missile Launcher FW
Scorpious Multi-Launcher FW
Tempest Salvo Launcher FW
Centurion Missile Launcher
Plasma Cannon
Quad Launcher FW
Helios Launcher FW
Grav Flux Bombard FW
Cyclonic Melta Lance FW
Icarus Rocket Pod
Thunderfire Cannon
Demolisher Cannon
Whirlwind Vengence Launcher
Whirlwind Castellan Launcher
Hyperios Launcher FW
Twin Magna-Melta FW
Vengeance Launcher FW
Bellicatus Missile Array
Twin Volcano Cannon FW
Fellblade Accelerator Cannon FW
Siege Melta Array FW
Dreadhammer Siege Cannon FW
Thunderhawk Heavy Cannon FW

Sisters
Exorsist Conflagration Rockets
Exorsist Missile Launcher

Custodes
Ballistus Grenade Launcher
Salvo Launcher
Arachnus Heavy Blaze Cannon FW

Admech
Eradication Ray
Plasma Culverin
Eradication Beamer
Neutron Laser
Belleros Energy Cannon

Guard
Demolisher Cannon
Eradicator Nova Cannon
Executioner Plasma Cannon
Artilliery Barrage
Plasma Cannon
Melta Cannon
Tauros Grenade Launcher FW
Earthshaker Cannon
Medusa Siege Cannon
Colossus Siege Mortar FW
Cycolops Demolition Charge FW
Deathstrike Missile
Griffon Heavy Mortar FW
Heavy Mortar FW




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Spoiler:
Kdash wrote:
So, as a quick experiment i went through Battlescribe noting down which weapons i'd expect to make the move to "Blast" weapons....


I gave up after looking at Marines, Guard, Sisters, Admech and Custodes.

Including FW models (and duplicating some weapons across codices - i.e. frag grenades and missile launchers) i got a total of 90 weapons.

I would carry on with the rest of the factions, but, frankly i cba.

Probably duplicates for the Copy Pasta Marines too. They probably consider the Vindicator from Death Guard different to the Vindicator from Blood Angels different to the Vindicator from Dark Angels and so on.


Should note that i also didn't do the BA/DA/DW/SW codices so those duplicates aren't included in the 88 either.

Also, "standard" marine special character wargear isn't included either... As the new BS setup seems to have removed them from the lists.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/11 12:56:13


 
   
Made in gb
Stabbin' Skarboy





crewe

BrianDavion wrote:
The problem is when GW has been pretty much only previewing rules that benefit marines, talking about how great marines are going to be, saying how the armies people are playing have gotten so much more elite, in the middle of a marine meta that makes the most uninteractive, dull tau meta look like amazing fun in comparison.


how many blast weapons do Marines even have? compared to say... the Guard, not a whole lot I wager


If i were to guess; frag grenade, fragstorm genade launchers, auxiliary grenade launcher, cerberus launcher, missile launchers, cyclone missile launcher, typhoon missile launcher, astartes grenade launcher, both variants of the whirlwind launcher, demolisher cannon, thunderfire cannon, plasma cannon, heavy plasma cannon, macro plasma incinerator and maybe plasma exterminators from the top of my head.

Admech for instance has 3 maybe 4 with the eradication beamer, belleros energy cannon, plasma culverin and maybe the neutron laser.

Guard would have from rough memory; artillery barrage, baneblade cannon, battle cannon, demolisher cannon, eradication nova cannon, executioner plasma cannon, plasma cannon, earth shaker cannon, manticore, deathstrike missile, frag grenade, frag bombs, grenade launcher, grenadier gauntlet, hellhammer cannon, mortar, magma cannon maybe, same with the melta cannon, multiple roocket pod, quake cannon, storm eagle rockets, stormsword siege cannon, taurox battle cannon, taurox missile launcher, tremor cannon, volcano cannon and wyvern quad stormshard mortar.

A lot of these are tied into super heavy vehicles or just turrets to leman russes. So roughly 15 for Marines, 27 to Guard. Admech have possibily 4.

Orkz would have lobba, burnabottles (how could I forget ), stikkbombs, stikkbomb chukka, stikkbomb flinga, maybe tankbusta bombs, stikksquig, squig launcher, heavy squig launcher, killkannon, kannon, kustom mega kannon, kustom mega zappa, maybe the bubble chukka but I doubt it, grotzookas, maybe the wazbom mega kannon, deffkannon and then supa rokkits.

In all cases im not counting relic weapons just yet, so 18 for Orkz, 2 are tied into a Stompa, 3 are soley on the Rukkatrukk and a whopping 6 (nearly a third) are pretty much grenades (or in the chukka/flingas case assault weapons).......

Already without those aforementioned relics we have 64 blast weapons from 4 races, I cant see Dark Eldar having any at all, Harliequins are probably the same again. My guess is most of these blast weapons are coming from Forge World. But already Marines have the lions share of blast types, with Guard being the kings as expected.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/11 13:00:59


How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?  
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan






 deffrekka wrote:
My guess is most of these blast weapons are coming from Forge World.


If they're rewriting FW indexes for 9E then it's likely all those weapons will have the blast keyword in the same style as future 9E codexes. So they're probably not included in the main rulebook.

   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Arbitrator wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Hard to believe they'd hike cultists' price by 50% without giving them something significant to boost their value. All the indications are that not a 50% price hike is far more than most units are seeing.

Of course, this is GW, so you never know. They might have just woke up, rolled out of bed, and decided "cultists should be terrible and nobody should use them, let's hike their points to the point where nobody will."

They probably viewed it under the lens of, "Cultists should not be the core of a Chaos Space Marine army, it should be the Marines", which is why Guardsmen didn't go up in the past when Cultists did.

Then wouldn't it make more sense to make csm better instead of just making cultists worse? Most csm players would much rather run actual csm in their armies, but gw seems intent on making them Inferior Marines compared to our loyalists counterparts.


Well we know cultists (and Intercessors) went up in points, maybe CSM stay the same? Staying similar when everything else changes is a buff after all
   
Made in is
Angered Reaver Arena Champion





With the weapons that will get blast weapon type I have to say that quite a few of them are considered so subpar that they were rarely taken. Some are popular and will probably continue to be popular(like the Thunderfire cannon), but was anybody taking multiple Whirlwinds in their games? If anything this pushes the viability of certain weapons.
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






tneva82 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
I would also add that the 50% increase of cultists just reflects on the lack of granularity in the current point system rather than anything else.


it's also a problem with how cheap units like cultists have gotten. the bottem area of troop choices (cultists guard etc) where so cheap it was proably becoming a problem, when you're so cheap a single point adjustment is a 25% increase, it gets REALY hard to add options or tweek points.

BTW there may well be more for hoards coming up. I know that AOS rewarded you with certain things if your unit size was above X. and this could be how GW does it. for example CSMs can take squads of up to 20 but never do, it might be tempted if a squad of 11+ CSMs could re-roll their armor save


You know you can increase granularity without giving hordes higher point increase % than elites right?

And hordes haven't been balance problem for well over a year minimum now.


To be fair here. Hordes absolutely were a massive issue with 8th upon release and for at least a year afterwards despite GW trying desperately to FAQ and or release things to remedy that. Again, "The Old Lady That Swallowed A Fly" syndrome. But GW's answer in 8th was always higher and higher rates of fire. Which solved the horde issue while simultaneously creating a new worse issue IMHO, especially when they doubled down on the idiocy that is rerolls.

Now, if GW halves the rates of fire of most weapons, and addresses auras and makes them command orders or something where you pick a unit in your characters detachment and they get his benefit or simply removes many of the reroll auras from the game. Then horde would be fine getting a larger point bump. Even casuals I know dislike the volume of dice at this point and I think even GW is aware they pushed it too far but you never do know for sure with them.

I will also say that all that speculation heavily leans on there being a massive day one patch to a TON of things in the game to work. Or, we play that good old kick the can game where the first two release armies reflect the new design paradigm and we have to wait for every other book to catch up, and hope GW doesn't change course mid way like they are renowned for. So far though we really are waiting and praying because literally nothing so far has been looking good for chaf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kodos wrote:
Another points why I think that GW is turning 40k into a "big" model game:

it is easier for beginner to spend more money on 4 Gorkanauts and paint them than on 120 Boys
also more likley that the buy the 4 big units at once while none is doing that with infantry, so faster profit for GW

also, a big model only army, is cheaper at the moment than an infantry based one, also better for beginners

we have seen more big stuff in the Necron preview than infantry units, so the new models focus shifts as well


but instead of just changing the game by itself, they add rules so players get the impression/illusion that it was their free decsion to play that way


I love a good conspiracy but this really is a bit out there. Surely the real answer, especially for a business, is to make both viable. Then Timmy can buy 4 stompy bots and have something to play until he is bored and wants that green tide and he'd still have to stompies to play with in the meantime.

The Necrons don't really support that. I play Necrons, I own a metric Feth load of metal skelies, The army pretty much has no room for none character infantry, so why not expand with other more interesting machines since you can be WAY more creative then just another metal skeleton with an ax or a gun?

If they botched the rules and nerfed hordes too far I'd advise the old adage, never attribute to malice what can be so easily explained by incompetence. GW has literally never gotten it correct yet, and call me cynical but I don't expect them to ever, but hopefully they listen to feedback and make an honest effort.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
The problem is when GW has been pretty much only previewing rules that benefit marines, talking about how great marines are going to be, saying how the armies people are playing have gotten so much more elite, in the middle of a marine meta that makes the most uninteractive, dull tau meta look like amazing fun in comparison.


how many blast weapons do Marines even have? compared to say... the Guard, not a whole lot I wager


Almost every data slate has a blast weapon lmao

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/11 13:35:26


   
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yukishiro1 wrote:
A squad of marines is not 500 points, which is what they'd have to be for the 50% increase to be accurate. "A squad of marines" points to the same 20% multiple people have said. Every indication we have is that average costs are going up by 20%, not 50%. There is absolutely no reason to think otherwise. You are free to do so if you want to anyway, but it's backed up by nothing, and contradicted by every single person who knows the rules who has spoken up about it.




Your focus on percentage increase is just a perfect example of why super cheap units are hard to point appropriately. If a model cost 2pts, it would have a 50% increase if it went to 3 points....but that's pretty much the only way it can be increased. If Cultists went up just 1 point that would still be a 25% increase. There is too little granularity in something that is pointed so low and this is something GW is moving away from. Good news is, you won;t need them to fuel your chaos armies anymore with cheap CP batteries. So if you think they're overcosted and useless (before seeing all the rules), just don't use them.
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

MaxT wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Arbitrator wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Hard to believe they'd hike cultists' price by 50% without giving them something significant to boost their value. All the indications are that not a 50% price hike is far more than most units are seeing.

Of course, this is GW, so you never know. They might have just woke up, rolled out of bed, and decided "cultists should be terrible and nobody should use them, let's hike their points to the point where nobody will."

They probably viewed it under the lens of, "Cultists should not be the core of a Chaos Space Marine army, it should be the Marines", which is why Guardsmen didn't go up in the past when Cultists did.

Then wouldn't it make more sense to make csm better instead of just making cultists worse? Most csm players would much rather run actual csm in their armies, but gw seems intent on making them Inferior Marines compared to our loyalists counterparts.


Well we know cultists (and Intercessors) went up in points, maybe CSM stay the same? Staying similar when everything else changes is a buff after all

They said that everything will be getting an increase, though it is possible that csm will get a smaller bump % wise. But is it really the best way to represent veterans of hundreds to thousands of years of war by making them cheap?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/11 13:39:08


 
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

 bullyboy wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
A squad of marines is not 500 points, which is what they'd have to be for the 50% increase to be accurate. "A squad of marines" points to the same 20% multiple people have said. Every indication we have is that average costs are going up by 20%, not 50%. There is absolutely no reason to think otherwise. You are free to do so if you want to anyway, but it's backed up by nothing, and contradicted by every single person who knows the rules who has spoken up about it.




Your focus on percentage increase is just a perfect example of why super cheap units are hard to point appropriately. If a model cost 2pts, it would have a 50% increase if it went to 3 points....but that's pretty much the only way it can be increased. If Cultists went up just 1 point that would still be a 25% increase. There is too little granularity in something that is pointed so low and this is something GW is moving away from. Good news is, you won;t need them to fuel your chaos armies anymore with cheap CP batteries. So if you think they're overcosted and useless (before seeing all the rules), just don't use them.
If Cultists went up to 6 points and Intercessors went up to 26, then it wouldn't be a big deal. It'd be "Okay, everything is apparently going up by about 50%."

The issue is, Intercessors, who are vastly superior to Cultists and indeed most other Troops in the game, got a 17% increase while Cultists got a 50%.

No, we don't have ALL the information. But the information we DO have paints a bad picture.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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Galveston County

Unless you are marines.

No madam, 40,000 is the year that this game is set in. Not how much it costs. Though you may have a point. - GW Fulchester
The Gatling Guns have flamethrowers on them because this is 40k - DOW III
 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Did they ever say that 20 points for an Intercessor includes weapons and a Sergeant?

Because autorifles have a 99.999999% chance of not costing anything, but bolt rifles? There's a 50/50 split on them getting a points cost. Same with Marine Sergeants.
   
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 bullyboy wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
A squad of marines is not 500 points, which is what they'd have to be for the 50% increase to be accurate. "A squad of marines" points to the same 20% multiple people have said. Every indication we have is that average costs are going up by 20%, not 50%. There is absolutely no reason to think otherwise. You are free to do so if you want to anyway, but it's backed up by nothing, and contradicted by every single person who knows the rules who has spoken up about it.




Your focus on percentage increase is just a perfect example of why super cheap units are hard to point appropriately. If a model cost 2pts, it would have a 50% increase if it went to 3 points....but that's pretty much the only way it can be increased. If Cultists went up just 1 point that would still be a 25% increase. There is too little granularity in something that is pointed so low and this is something GW is moving away from. Good news is, you won;t need them to fuel your chaos armies anymore with cheap CP batteries. So if you think they're overcosted and useless (before seeing all the rules), just don't use them.


I remember a 10 man tactical squad being 300 points in 2nd ed. They always cut points to encourage folks to use more models ($) rather then simply making the standard game sizes larger in the core rules. The starting cost for every unit in the game should have been 10 points. It's a nice clean number that's easily adjusted from. Also, when a unit is released and is too cheap, it needs to go up rather then bringing everyone else down. But the community complains too much when their units get balanced. GW did increases in CA17 but predictably in 18 and 19 you pretty much only saw across the games cuts. Why? Because now everyone is happy right? Only after two rounds of that stratagy and you entirely remove the room you built into the game for granular adjustments lol. So here we are.

   
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 MPJ wrote:
Spoiler:
Ice_can wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
The problem is when GW has been pretty much only previewing rules that benefit marines, talking about how great marines are going to be, saying how the armies people are playing have gotten so much more elite, in the middle of a marine meta that makes the most uninteractive, dull tau meta look like amazing fun in comparison.


how many blast weapons do Marines even have? compared to say... the Guard, not a whole lot I wager

No, but they are uniquely equipped to avoid blast weapons with their ability to break their infantry units into combat squads. Playing a guard list with lots of blast weapons? Break your 10 man squads into 5s, break your 6 man squads of aggressors and the like into 3s. Can anyone else do that? Maybe they can and I'm forgetting.

Just checked Tactical flexability only works on full 10 model units and is done in the marine players movement phase so 1 unit per turn.


All marine armies have the combat squads special rule allowing all units with said rule to be split into two squads and most units also have a minimum number that’s five or less as well. So it’s every unit at the start of the game

My bad, though this make it look more like Marines 2.0 is terrible for balance in both 8th which it broke and looks like it's still going to be broke in 9th.
   
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RogueSangre





The Cockatrice Malediction

Hey guys, calm down! Sure cultists are going up by 50% while the most numerous and effective troop choice in the game is only going up by 20%, and they put in a new special rule to make units with more than 10 models easier to kill, and they've said that this edition is supposed to favor small elite units, but it's just too soon to tell! There might be rules we haven't seen that make up for it! Like maybe the new terrain rules:

Lousy With Cultists
In the 41st millennium Chaos Cultists are everywhere. Around every corner, down every dark alley, under every rock and shrub. In fact, most terrain is literally Lousy With Cultists! If a unit of Chaos Cultists ends their move within 1" of terrain set up D6 additional Chaos Cultist models within 1" of the unit and more than 1" from any enemy models. If for whatever reason it is not possible to set up all the additional Chaos Cultists or if the additional Chaos Cultists don't bring the size of the unit above 11, the unit instead takes D6 Mortal Wounds.
Additional models cost Reinforcement Points in Matched Play.

See - you never know! We just have to wait and see!

I can't wait to see the new terrain rules today!
   
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Red Corsair wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
A squad of marines is not 500 points, which is what they'd have to be for the 50% increase to be accurate. "A squad of marines" points to the same 20% multiple people have said. Every indication we have is that average costs are going up by 20%, not 50%. There is absolutely no reason to think otherwise. You are free to do so if you want to anyway, but it's backed up by nothing, and contradicted by every single person who knows the rules who has spoken up about it.




Your focus on percentage increase is just a perfect example of why super cheap units are hard to point appropriately. If a model cost 2pts, it would have a 50% increase if it went to 3 points....but that's pretty much the only way it can be increased. If Cultists went up just 1 point that would still be a 25% increase. There is too little granularity in something that is pointed so low and this is something GW is moving away from. Good news is, you won;t need them to fuel your chaos armies anymore with cheap CP batteries. So if you think they're overcosted and useless (before seeing all the rules), just don't use them.


I remember a 10 man tactical squad being 300 points in 2nd ed. They always cut points to encourage folks to use more models ($) rather then simply making the standard game sizes larger in the core rules. The starting cost for every unit in the game should have been 10 points. It's a nice clean number that's easily adjusted from. Also, when a unit is released and is too cheap, it needs to go up rather then bringing everyone else down. But the community complains too much when their units get balanced. GW did increases in CA17 but predictably in 18 and 19 you pretty much only saw across the games cuts. Why? Because now everyone is happy right? Only after two rounds of that stratagy and you entirely remove the room you built into the game for granular adjustments lol. So here we are.


Can you really blame them? I mean, I'm always in favour of "nerfs" but people HATE nerfs. What people LOVE is buffs to their stuff so they can be as broken as everything else. They fell rewarded, instead of something being cut ouf of them.

One needs to be a very serious and commited developer to make what it is needed for the long term health of a game/product when doing it is in most cases negatively perceived by the consumers. And thats bad on itself, because you are selling a product.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
 
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