Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

terry wrote:
if they follow AoS regarding the tabling system. You don't stop playing when one is tabled, so you use those turns to score some more points. But the winner is the one with the most points, no matter if that person has no more models left. Personaly I like at, as it forces you to think about how you can play the mission

Definitely. More than one game I have won despite being tabled, because I outplayed my opponent in a strategic level. And far more than one game I could have tabled my opponent but did not because I needed to play to the scenario.

Voss wrote:


The stormtalon seems much more confusing.

It lets you drop an aircraft into combat with stuff without charging, at the beginning of your movement phase. That's definitely weird. But they can just move away in their movement phase, and it doesn't count as falling back. So I'm not sure it's actually all that abusive. Putting something in hover mode doesn't make it lose the aircraft keyword per the Engine War datasheets; if it did, there would be all sorts of nonsense you could pull.

It would be a lot more problematic if you chose hover mode at the beginning of the battle round rather than your turn. As is, I may be missing something, but I don't see a huge advantage. There are some really weird edge cases where it'd be useful - if you are fighting stuff that gets to shoot on death, noise marines for example, you could use it to make your flyer unshootable by putting yourself into combat in your movement phase, before you start killing them. But that's a super rare interaction.

The bigger effect from all this seems to be that if you have a model with fly, you can charge-but-not-charge an aircraft in the movement phase simply by moving within 1" of it.

Tyel wrote:
Mixed view on flyers tbh - although they didn't really explain how they will work.

Yes, movement blocking was lame.
Yes, circling round the battlefield acting more like a helicopter than the hypersonic fighter jet was a bit lame.

But... 40k is a model game. I don't *want* stuff to be off the board. (Which is also why I'm not really persuaded at all this outflank stuff they keep talking up). This sounds very much like a return to 7th where you are going to turn up and shoot, then fly off the board next turn, then rinse repeat. Which was kind of dull.

On the second point, most 40K flyers have vectored engines allowing for a hovering mode, only a relatively few don't (dakkajets for sure, probably eldar/dark eldar, not 100% sure on necrons...).

Though I wish they would go the Bolt Action/Flames of War/Team Yankee/Battletech route - you place the flying model on the board to indicate an attack run, AA weaponry performs an overwatch style retaliation/preemptive attack, then the fliers are removed. Only hovering vehicles remain on the board.

 Stormonu wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Mixed view on flyers tbh - although they didn't really explain how they will work.

Yes, movement blocking was lame.
Yes, circling round the battlefield acting more like a helicopter than the hypersonic fighter jet was a bit lame.

But... 40k is a model game. I don't *want* stuff to be off the board. (Which is also why I'm not really persuaded at all this outflank stuff they keep talking up). This sounds very much like a return to 7th where you are going to turn up and shoot, then fly off the board next turn, then rinse repeat. Which was kind of dull.

On the second point, most 40K flyers have vectored engines allowing for a hovering mode, only a relatively few don't (dakkajets for sure, probably eldar/dark eldar, not 100% sure on necrons...).

Though I wish they would go the Bolt Action/Flames of War/Team Yankee/Battletech route - you place the flying model on the board to indicate an attack run, AA weaponry performs an overwatch style retaliation/preemptive attack, then the fliers are removed. Only hovering vehicles remain on the board.

Yes, ideally that is how aircraft and AA should work, especially aircraft with the "supersonic" datasheet trait. Hovering models would use standard fly/skimmer rules and stay on the table.

edit: nvm

Jets don't have to go off the board I'd assume, they can still turn. They just don't die if they do have to leave.

IanVanCheese wrote:
Jets don't have to go off the board I'd assume, they can still turn. They just don't die if they do have to leave.

Correct.

Tyel wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Better than 10 Guardmen destroying the plane because the plane doesn't have a place to end its movement anymore. That was one of the most stupid rules in 8th.

I guess.. immersion wise - but tbh, I felt that was your fault for putting your plane in the wrong place, and as a plane bringer you deserve everything you get (even if Eldar aside, planes have not been that great this edition.)

People seem to think its a big problem, so I guess it was - but I think it was incredibly rare to kill a plane via this method.
I've seen aircraft die due to going off the board - but that was usually because the player knew that was going to happen next turn, but they wanted them to move to a certain location in order to shoot something (often say sniping a character.)

Depends entirely on the army setup and table setup. If you had a busy table and playing against IG it was quite easy to be screwed over and lose your plane quickly. All in all a bad game design that meant the lethality of planes had to be much higher to make up for their required finesse.

i like the flyer rule so far... including not beeing able to hide...

I also like that there is still an incentive to block a flyers path, since he is then forced to leave the table, missing out an entire shooting phase!

and i guess... flyers cant be attacked in CC anymore? that would make alot of sense actually

I'm dumb, I don't get it. If I have a flyer which is completely blocked from LoS by terrain that doesn't have the obscured keyword, is it still always visible?

RedNoak wrote:


and i guess... flyers cant be attacked in CC anymore? that would make alot of sense actually

What makes you think this? The bullet points lead me to believe that models with the fly keyword will be able to attack them in CC.
Heck, the Heldrake is designed to attack them

We don't have the full info, but it looks to me that Aircraft are going to be similar to end of previous edition with a few extra things (Obscured, flying off table etc)

I see nothing that suggests what can and can't attack them in CC changing
I would be very surprised if detailed rules are not about which will state that fly models can not enter engagement zone of aircraft unless it's during the assault phase. Easy enough to have similar for Aircraft going into hover mode to say they can not end their movement phase in engagement zone of another model when in Hover mode even if going into the mode starts in engagement distance

PiñaColada wrote:
I'm dumb, I don't get it. If I have a flyer which is completely blocked from LoS by terrain that doesn't have the obscured keyword, is it still always visible?

Nope, its only visible through obscured scenery I think.

I'd like to see a scenario or two that's like one of the missions in Space Marine - a squadron of fliers on one side being attacked by jetpack-equipped attackers and flak on the other side. Sort of a modification of the old convoy scenario, except everything has to have Fly.

Also, I guess I don't understand why on the new rules that they made it the 18+ wound model can be seen & attacked, but the reverse isn't true. How can LOS be one way?

PiñaColada wrote:
I'm dumb, I don't get it. If I have a flyer which is completely blocked from LoS by terrain that doesn't have the obscured keyword, is it still always visible?

Your not it's one of the issue GW previews have always had, the designers make bold sweeping statements the Community tears new "playtested design appart within 20 mins. Desingers backpeddle saying we don't have the full rules it's all balanced fine.

Much like they said when the Community flipped the table over Marine's Iron hands supliment. How many times were we assured it was balanced and we where over reacting. 3 nerf cycles later and still one of the top codex's. But the design team knows better than the Community always.

PiñaColada wrote:
I'm dumb, I don't get it. If I have a flyer which is completely blocked from LoS by terrain that doesn't have the obscured keyword, is it still always visible?

I don't think so but I have to keep re-reading the words - I really hope they have clear examples in the rule book!

Its wierd that a solid "non" Obscuring piece of terrain would block LOS but a Obscuring peice of terrain would not!

 Asmodai wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Am I the only one who noticed that the article said that the new Forge World books will be coming out at the same time as 9th? So when are they going to start previewing those? I need to know if my resin toys are going to be better, or worse. And if my R&H will be back, or squatted.

"*** The list of Forge World Flyers receiving the Aircraft keyword will be included in their rules updates on the same day that the new edition is launched."

I think that means that there will be a FAQ Day 1, not that the books will be available Day 1.

In practice, most of the aircraft rules will play very similarly to the current ones.

I don't see many people choosing to fly off their table in the movement phase since you miss out on a whole turn of shooting by doing so. That's going to be more for a desperation tactic or when you're already got the enemy pinned in a corner.

Perhaps, but if that's what they're doing why wouldn't they just add the fw flyers to the list in the brb? Because adding fw rules in a gw book would be bad somehow? And why specifically call it out in one of their little * teasers? Maybe I'm just hoping too much.

 Stormonu wrote:
I'd like to see a scenario or two that's like one of the missions in Space Marine - a squadron of fliers on one side being attacked by jetpack-equipped attackers and flak on the other side. Sort of a modification of the old convoy scenario, except everything has to have Fly.

Also, I guess I don't understand why on the new rules that they made it the 18+ wound model can be seen & attacked, but the reverse isn't true. How can LOS be one way?

For huge things, you need the 'head', sensors or whatever to be able to see and the guns. In much the same way that a person needs to be able to see and position their weapon to shoot - with obscuring terrain, there's enough dust, intervening walls that you can't shoot through the windows of several walls etc. Same rules for a man as a knight.

However something as big as a knight isn't obscured by a few walls in the same way a living man is, it can't duck under windows, lean around doorways and instead just fills a huge amount of space without being aware of whether something could see it or not. So if you can draw LOS to it, then you can take a shot.

Think of the 'obscured' save as things using the terrain that's more or less scaled for them, and ducking. The infantryman's pose is not as close to real life as the Knight or super heavy vehicle's pose.
There's going to be a few edge cases, but that's the gist. Plus they'd still get cover, there's some protection but if your guns can go through the walls, you know where the rest of the knight is. Vs something smaller, you're kind of guessing.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Am I the only one who noticed that the article said that the new Forge World books will be coming out at the same time as 9th? So when are they going to start previewing those? I need to know if my resin toys are going to be better, or worse. And if my R&H will be back, or squatted.

"*** The list of Forge World Flyers receiving the Aircraft keyword will be included in their rules updates on the same day that the new edition is launched."

I think that means that there will be a FAQ Day 1, not that the books will be available Day 1.

In practice, most of the aircraft rules will play very similarly to the current ones.

I don't see many people choosing to fly off their table in the movement phase since you miss out on a whole turn of shooting by doing so. That's going to be more for a desperation tactic or when you're already got the enemy pinned in a corner.

Perhaps, but if that's what they're doing why wouldn't they just add the fw flyers to the list in the brb? Because adding fw rules in a gw book would be bad somehow? And why specifically call it out in one of their little * teasers? Maybe I'm just hoping too much.

Because they probably forgot they need updating and hence will have between now an dthe release of 9th to actually try and gut all the FW indexes of any interesting rules and make them feel horrendously over pointed just in time for 9th edition and then probably still have the cheak to add 20% FW tax points increases because not codex models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tastyfish wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
I'd like to see a scenario or two that's like one of the missions in Space Marine - a squadron of fliers on one side being attacked by jetpack-equipped attackers and flak on the other side. Sort of a modification of the old convoy scenario, except everything has to have Fly.

Also, I guess I don't understand why on the new rules that they made it the 18+ wound model can be seen & attacked, but the reverse isn't true. How can LOS be one way?

For huge things, you need the 'head', sensors or whatever to be able to see and the guns. In much the same way that a person needs to be able to see and position their weapon to shoot - with obscuring terrain, there's enough dust, intervening walls that you can't shoot through the windows of several walls etc. Same rules for a man as a knight.

However something as big as a knight isn't obscured by a few walls in the same way a living man is, it can't duck under windows, lean around doorways and instead just fills a huge amount of space without being aware of whether something could see it or not. So if you can draw LOS to it, then you can take a shot.

Think of the 'obscured' save as things using the terrain that's more or less scaled for them, and ducking. The infantryman's pose is not as close to real life as the Knight or super heavy vehicle's pose.
There's going to be a few edge cases, but that's the gist. Plus they'd still get cover, there's some protection but if your guns can go through the walls, you know where the rest of the knight is. Vs something smaller, you're kind of guessing.

Counter Point a Knight shpuld certainly be able to find and identity where a Repulsor/leman russ's shots are coming from fairly quickly and in an active combat zone your just going to use your Titan class of weapons to level the dang building while you shoot back.
This is 40k by the time Knights and Titans take to the field anything standing afterwards is an exception.

I think of obscuring in the “camo” sense more than the invisible sense.

So obscuring terrain makes it so something can hide better, thinking of things like a normal size vehicle going hull down behind the ruins of a building.

Howesever things that are flying high in the sky, or literally just knock over buildings, are going to have a harder time hiding.

Obviously you can find fringe cases or examples around anything but I get the idea they are going for. We will need to see how super heavies interact with terrain going forward. I would like them to be less restrictive on non-fly/infantry models. That single handedly made entire unit types practically unusable.

Just seen a quick preview of the 'What's in the Box' and the glimpse of models i can see some kind of necron with what looks to be a Tachyon Arrow strapped to its wrist. It is in the image of the necrons on the front page which suggests that image is definitely the box contents and the model is likely either a new necron lord or overlord model.

 Tastyfish wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
I'd like to see a scenario or two that's like one of the missions in Space Marine - a squadron of fliers on one side being attacked by jetpack-equipped attackers and flak on the other side. Sort of a modification of the old convoy scenario, except everything has to have Fly.

Also, I guess I don't understand why on the new rules that they made it the 18+ wound model can be seen & attacked, but the reverse isn't true. How can LOS be one way?

For huge things, you need the 'head', sensors or whatever to be able to see and the guns. In much the same way that a person needs to be able to see and position their weapon to shoot - with obscuring terrain, there's enough dust, intervening walls that you can't shoot through the windows of several walls etc. Same rules for a man as a knight.

However something as big as a knight isn't obscured by a few walls in the same way a living man is, it can't duck under windows, lean around doorways and instead just fills a huge amount of space without being aware of whether something could see it or not. So if you can draw LOS to it, then you can take a shot.

Think of the 'obscured' save as things using the terrain that's more or less scaled for them, and ducking. The infantryman's pose is not as close to real life as the Knight or super heavy vehicle's pose.
There's going to be a few edge cases, but that's the gist. Plus they'd still get cover, there's some protection but if your guns can go through the walls, you know where the rest of the knight is. Vs something smaller, you're kind of guessing.

That works for infantry vs knights, but explain why a repulsor executioner can see and shoot a spartan, despite the spartan being less than 5 tall, but the spartan can't see and shoot the executioner?

RedNoak wrote:

I also like that there is still an incentive to block a flyers path

You can't block the path. You can limit where it can stop (it can't land on top of models), but it ignores everything it passes over.

and i guess... flyers cant be attacked in CC anymore? that would make alot of sense actually

They can be attacked in CC (subject to various limitations on what model types and traits allow attacking flyers- we know other flyers can). The main thing is anyone _can_ ignore their Engagement Range when moving.

I note that when a lot of flyers with the hard to hit rule go into hovering mode, they lose some keywords and gain others.

Like the valkyrie, for example, loses "supersonic" and "hard to hit".

So its possibel that a hovering valkyrie will stop being an aircraft in the keyword sense -- and suddenly be able to hide behind terrain, suddenly be able to be attacked in melee -- even though in non-hover mode, its a rocking hard target for a grot to leap up to engage in fisticuffs with.

If, that is, GW were to continue this trend and have aircraft written as something you lose when you are not functioning as an aircraft, I guess, even though still flying.

* It's also doubly frustrating as this is supposed to be bringing the rules in to line with the fluff, The fluff has Knights, Baneblades etc taking cover behind buildings and ruins. Yes they tend to not be able to see infantry etc easily bit when they are fired upon thr dang well level the building they get shot from.

I could live with a -1 to hit etc but just not being able to shoot at those 3 Tank commanders while the smash your models off the table is the definition of unfun and gamey.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/12/warhammer-40000-preview-tomorrowgw-homepage-post-4/

Teaser of the Boxset.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
I note that when a lot of flyers with the hard to hit rule go into hovering mode, they lose some keywords and gain others.

Like the valkyrie, for example, loses "supersonic" and "hard to hit".

So its possibel that a hovering valkyrie will stop being an aircraft in the keyword sense -- and suddenly be able to hide behind terrain, suddenly be able to be attacked in melee -- even though in non-hover mode, its a rocking hard target for a grot to leap up to engage in fisticuffs with.

If, that is, GW were to continue this trend and have aircraft written as something you lose when you are not functioning as an aircraft, I guess, even though still flying.

Those aren't keywords, they're rules, after 3 years of 8th ed it would be nice if people learnt the difference. Generally speaking there is very little in the game that changes a units keywords, I strongly doubt any changes to the hovering rules that a handful of Imperial flyers have will include changing keywords, largely because that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I just wanna know the Judicators rules because I expect him to be Company/Chapter Champion +1.

 Sasori wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/12/warhammer-40000-preview-tomorrowgw-homepage-post-4/

Teaser of the Boxset.

We have a thread for that...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/789037.page

Huh. After the trailer I was hoping for some SoBs in the box, which would have made it a definite buy. Without... not so sure.

 Graphite wrote:
Huh. After the trailer I was hoping for some SoBs in the box, which would have made it a definite buy. Without... not so sure.

I guess three factions (4 with a single Cadian girl ;0 ) would be a bit much plus we have had alot of Sisters models recently and getting new one shortly but yeah their prominance in the vid and general advertising was a pleasent suprise and might have people asking - so where can I get Sisters models - hopefully!