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 Mr Morden wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Honestly the new Melta guys aren't that broken. The issue is Melta being garbage in general. Now, would I have made it so their weapon is Heavy or that they can't advance and shoot with the weapon? Probably.

Not that broken?
They are in 9th edition costs, compairing them to units in 8th edition points they are way more damage output, heck 3 crisis suits with double fusion are 156 points in 8th add 10% for 8th edition points increases and they are 170 points compaired to this less than 100 points unit for the same number of shots with worse stats. Even better laugh thise Crisis suits are 12PL for 3
Going all in for 9 fusion to ofset the BS you now have 198 8th edition points for comparison.
These guys aren't just a bit better than Bad units they aren't playing the same game, or GW was 100% wrong about units seeing increases as it looks like most units need to cost less than they did in 8th to compete with marines.

They're probably 35 points if looking at current Aggressor costs. For absolutely zero melee capability the cost is fine.

Going by PL cost they are what 18 pts each and they have 2+ attacks and are T5 plus usual marines boosts for about 18 pts....zero mele capability compared to melee units but not compared to say 3 cultists.....

1 PL=20 points. Were did you get those utter nonsense numbers?

stratigo wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Not sure I like the coherency change.
I get that it solves conga lines, but moving hordes around just got a lot more finicky.

Say you have a unit of 30 orks. With the new change, you now have to make sure that every orks is within 2" of 2 more orks, or else you will take casualties.

This means that every time you move them, you have to do a head count and measure to make sure that you aren't going to take extra losses at the end of the phase.

You know, Gw started selling 40k movement trays.

Now there is a new ruling about coherency that juuuuust to happens to benefit those said movement trays.


I like the rule, but I see the grift.

Here I am just moving models in a blob with my hands for 25 years. Soooo haaarrd.

You know if they were keen on that they could have even cross prompted them at the time, buuuut they didn't.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Not sure I like the coherency change.
I get that it solves conga lines, but moving hordes around just got a lot more finicky.

Say you have a unit of 30 orks. With the new change, you now have to make sure that every orks is within 2" of 2 more orks, or else you will take casualties.

This means that every time you move them, you have to do a head count and measure to make sure that you aren't going to take extra losses at the end of the phase.

You know, Gw started selling 40k movement trays.

Now there is a new ruling about coherency that juuuuust to happens to benefit those said movement trays.


I like the rule, but I see the grift.

Here I am just moving models in a blob with my hands for 25 years. Soooo haaarrd.

You know if they were keen on that they could have even cross prompted them at the time, buuuut they didn't.

Summed it up nicely.

Can still kinda stand in a line.

DanielFM wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Honestly the new Melta guys aren't that broken. The issue is Melta being garbage in general. Now, would I have made it so their weapon is Heavy or that they can't advance and shoot with the weapon? Probably.

Not that broken?
They are in 9th edition costs, compairing them to units in 8th edition points they are way more damage output, heck 3 crisis suits with double fusion are 156 points in 8th add 10% for 8th edition points increases and they are 170 points compaired to this less than 100 points unit for the same number of shots with worse stats. Even better laugh thise Crisis suits are 12PL for 3
Going all in for 9 fusion to ofset the BS you now have 198 8th edition points for comparison.
These guys aren't just a bit better than Bad units they aren't playing the same game, or GW was 100% wrong about units seeing increases as it looks like most units need to cost less than they did in 8th to compete with marines.

They're probably 35 points if looking at current Aggressor costs. For absolutely zero melee capability the cost is fine.

Going by PL cost they are what 18 pts each and they have 2+ attacks and are T5 plus usual marines boosts for about 18 pts....zero mele capability compared to melee units but not compared to say 3 cultists.....

1 PL=20 points. Were did you get those utter nonsense numbers?

being generous and saying they are 40 points base take away the cost of a multiMelta 22 points for marines, change it from heavy to assualt for free, that leaves the baze Gravis body at 18 points. If they are closer to 30, we know an intercessor in 9th is 18 points even at the top end of 40 points each that means the weapon, the +1T +2W and Doubel shooting is worth 22 points the same as a Multi melta in 8th pre 10%increase.

 BroodSpawn wrote:

Gee it's almost like the Murderbuckets slice up the Marines should they have gotten into melee somehow. Funny that, especially since the Marines have 0 close combat weapons that matter here.
.

Except they aren't slicing them up. Grind part of 1 dead. Boooo! Scary! Marines btw are putting up fairly decent fight back with same # of attacks and better WS.

So the necrons charge, do pittiful damage and that's it...

tneva82 wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:

Gee it's almost like the Murderbuckets slice up the Marines should they have gotten into melee somehow. Funny that, especially since the Marines have 0 close combat weapons that matter here.
.

Except they aren't slicing them up. Grind part of 1 dead. Boooo! Scary! Marines btw are putting up fairly decent fight back with same # of attacks and better WS.

So the necrons charge, do pittiful damage and that's it...

Welcome to the wonderful world of "playing not marines vs marines!" Hope you brought 8 wyches to kill 1 primaris! Haha you have to buy and paint a whole plastic kit for every single damn space marine now! Nice faction choice, loser!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Then why not just not let you take units of more than 5? It makes no sense to let you take an initial model that completely neuters the effectiveness of your unit.

Any rule which makes situation #1 legal but situation #2 an illegally spread out unit is just a stupid rule. If what they are trying to do is make nobody ever take a unit of 6 models, there are a lot simpler and more elegant ways to do that than this nonsense.

Utter, utter nonsense and you know it.

"You're wrong but I can't explain why" isn't typically a very convincing argument.

Any rule which makes the spread out unit of 5 skyweavers legal but the base-to-base unit of 6 an illegally spread out unit is just a bad rule.

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Honestly the new Melta guys aren't that broken. The issue is Melta being garbage in general. Now, would I have made it so their weapon is Heavy or that they can't advance and shoot with the weapon? Probably.

Not that broken?
They are in 9th edition costs, compairing them to units in 8th edition points they are way more damage output, heck 3 crisis suits with double fusion are 156 points in 8th add 10% for 8th edition points increases and they are 170 points compaired to this less than 100 points unit for the same number of shots with worse stats. Even better laugh thise Crisis suits are 12PL for 3
Going all in for 9 fusion to ofset the BS you now have 198 8th edition points for comparison.
These guys aren't just a bit better than Bad units they aren't playing the same game, or GW was 100% wrong about units seeing increases as it looks like most units need to cost less than they did in 8th to compete with marines.

They're probably 35 points if looking at current Aggressor costs. For absolutely zero melee capability the cost is fine.

TIL 10 S4 AP- melee attacks is "absolutely zero", that's funny. What do other shooty factions' units have in melee then? What's the melee capability of a unit of Scourges?

For 100+ points are you really going to say with a straight face that 10 S4 attacks is melee capability? The answer to that question is absolutely not. I can't even believe you tried that as an argument not gonna lie.

Like all Primaris, they are surprisingly good in melee despite not being melee-focused. It obviously isn't a lot, but more melee capability than you will see on most 100 point anti-tank infantry squads.

the_scotsman wrote:

Welcome to the wonderful world of "playing not marines vs marines!" Hope you brought 8 wyches to kill 1 primaris! Haha you have to buy and paint a whole plastic kit for every single damn space marine now! Nice faction choice, loser!

I'd laugh, but I have just finished painting up a second 30 man unit of Ork boyz. (3x kits...) Likely to be blasted off the table by a whirlwind.

That’s awesome and gives me some pretty cool conversion ideas.

tneva82 wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:

Gee it's almost like the Murderbuckets slice up the Marines should they have gotten into melee somehow. Funny that, especially since the Marines have 0 close combat weapons that matter here.
.

Except they aren't slicing them up. Grind part of 1 dead. Boooo! Scary! Marines btw are putting up fairly decent fight back with same # of attacks and better WS.

So the necrons charge, do pittiful damage and that's it...

It's funny that people keep ignoring their buffs or that you're pitting a unit against the marines that's 1/3 the points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Honestly the new Melta guys aren't that broken. The issue is Melta being garbage in general. Now, would I have made it so their weapon is Heavy or that they can't advance and shoot with the weapon? Probably.

Not that broken?
They are in 9th edition costs, compairing them to units in 8th edition points they are way more damage output, heck 3 crisis suits with double fusion are 156 points in 8th add 10% for 8th edition points increases and they are 170 points compaired to this less than 100 points unit for the same number of shots with worse stats. Even better laugh thise Crisis suits are 12PL for 3
Going all in for 9 fusion to ofset the BS you now have 198 8th edition points for comparison.
These guys aren't just a bit better than Bad units they aren't playing the same game, or GW was 100% wrong about units seeing increases as it looks like most units need to cost less than they did in 8th to compete with marines.

They're probably 35 points if looking at current Aggressor costs. For absolutely zero melee capability the cost is fine.

TIL 10 S4 AP- melee attacks is "absolutely zero", that's funny. What do other shooty factions' units have in melee then? What's the melee capability of a unit of Scourges?

For 100+ points are you really going to say with a straight face that 10 S4 attacks is melee capability? The answer to that question is absolutely not. I can't even believe you tried that as an argument not gonna lie.

Its certainly not zero though is it? Zero would be ....Zero....

Zero melee, even figuratively, is what, say, a unit of 5 scourges (which costs 128 points for 4 blasters, which are one-shot 18 inch meltas, lol) has: 6 S3 AP- attacks.

3 models with 10 S4 (AP-1 later in the game) attacks is not "zero melee." It's pretty modest, but it's not zero.

 Rinkydink wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Welcome to the wonderful world of "playing not marines vs marines!" Hope you brought 8 wyches to kill 1 primaris! Haha you have to buy and paint a whole plastic kit for every single damn space marine now! Nice faction choice, loser!

I'd laugh, but I have just finished painting up a second 30 man unit of Ork boyz. (3x kits...) Likely to be blasted off the table by a whirlwind.

I feel your pain. Here 25th out of 30 termagants painted. They feel so laughably bad now.
Orks, Tyranids, Astra Militarum : NPC armies.

I really don't get why this coherency bs is only for 6+ model units... why doesnt it work that way for ALL units... you know like a general RULE...

units with more than 2 models must be in 2" of two other models

then lets see if people still think it wouldn't be a big deal :/


...so much hassle and fukkup potenial... for what? to screw big units even more??? as if 5 marines never congolined to hold objectives and maintain buffs... SO FREAKIN STUPID


EDIT:
and not only that... its now near impossible to trap or wrap around units... also why nerf multicharges in the first place???? would've been punishing enough with the coherency rules!
btw... does the new emergency disembarkment strat imply that units being forced out of transports suffer from the explosion?

RedNoak wrote:
I really don't get why this coherency bs is only for 6+ model units... why doesnt it work that way for ALL units... you know like a general RULE...

units with more than 2 models must be in 2" of two other models

then lets see if people still think it wouldn't be a big deal :/


...so much hassle and fukkup potenial... for what? to screw big units evan more??? as if 5 marines never congolined to hold objectives and maintain buffs... SO FREAKIN STUPID

And the irony is that it makes 5-man units better at conga-lining than 6 man units, especially if they have big bases. See my prior post showing the ridiculousness of 5 skyweavers at max coherency, covering a far larger board area, being legal, but 6 skyweavers base-to-base in a line, covering a much smaller board area, being deemed an illegal conga line.

I agree, if they were committed to this approach rather than the much simpler "entire unit has to be within X" of every other model in the unit", they should make it applicable to all unit sizes, not just 6". Why can 5 models conga line out to their hearts' content, but if they get a 6th dude he makes them bunch up and take up less space than they did with 5?

RedNoak wrote:
I really don't get why this coherency bs is only for 6+ model units... why doesnt it work that way for ALL units... you know like a general RULE...

units with more than 2 models must be in 2" of two other models

then lets see if people still think it wouldn't be a big deal :/


...so much hassle and fukkup potenial... for what? to screw big units even more??? as if 5 marines never congolined to hold objectives and maintain buffs... SO FREAKIN STUPID


EDIT:
and not only that... its now near impossible to trap or wrap around units... also why nerf multicharges in the first place???? would've been punishing enough with the coherency rules!
btw... does the new emergency disembarkment strat imply that units being forced out of transports suffer from the explosion?

1) You have to draw the line at some point
2) 5 marines barely cover ground compared to what other units can
3) 10 marines currently cover (8 * 2) + 12 = 28 inches; 5 will cover (3 * 2) + 4 = 10 inches - that's a pretty significant difference
4) People keep pretending this has no effect on screening and that it only hurts melee blobs - you need to stop playing the victim and start thinking a little more

You don't have to draw lines at some point. And even if you did, that's not an argument for drawing lines at any particular point. That's a classic logical fallacy.

If they were committed to this rule, why not make it apply to all unit sizes (of more than 2, obviously)? Why should a unit of 5 be able to conga-line further than a unit of 6? How does that make any sort of sense?

Your math is also way off. 5-man units aren't impacted by the new change, it's only 6+. A 5 man marine squad on 32 mm bases can conga line out 14.25 inches, not 10. A 6-man marine unit can conga-line out 11 inches under the new rules. An extra model means you LOSE 3.25 inches of space. It's downright silly.

is it just me or someone else also have the feeling that the game will be much slower in 9th if people use units with more than 5 models

 Daedalus81 wrote:
1) You have to draw the line at some point

WHY?

yukishiro1 wrote:
Why can 5 models conga line out to their hearts' content, but if they get a 6th dude he makes them bunch up and take up less space than they did with 5?

I mean you can keep wasting time making convoluted scenarios that don't matter if you really want.

 kodos wrote:
is it just me or someone else also have the feeling that the game will be much slower in 9th if people use units with more than 5 models

Well yes and no as units over 10 models will be smacked of the table due to blast weapons. 5 man unit's have some harsh interactions with moral now, unless your a marine.
Frankly the only thih so far making this edition faster islooking like everyone will play primaris or GTFO looser so the sats will be fairly simple and they dont have to spend the opponenets charge phase rerolling 1000 dice?

yukishiro1 wrote:
An extra model means you LOSE 3.25 inches of space. It's downright silly.

The horror.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

RedNoak wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
1) You have to draw the line at some point

WHY?

Because that's how rules work? Because did you bother to consider 3 model units? That things exist in this game beyond just 5 model and 6 model marine units?

`what convoluted scenarios ???
how on earth is comparison between a 5 and 6 model unit a convoluted scenario?!

you know what a convoluted scanario is? THIS:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

1) You have to draw the line at some point
2) 5 marines barely cover ground compared to what other units can
3) 10 marines currently cover (8 * 2) + 12 = 28 inches; 5 will cover (3 * 2) + 4 = 10 inches - that's a pretty significant difference
4) People keep pretending this has no effect on screening and that it only hurts melee blobs - you need to stop playing the victim and start thinking a little more

 Daedalus81 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Why can 5 models conga line out to their hearts' content, but if they get a 6th dude he makes them bunch up and take up less space than they did with 5?

I mean you can keep wasting time making convoluted scenarios that don't matter if you really want.

If that's your inelegant way of apologizing and admitting that I'm right, I accept the apology.

It does matter, for any unit that can take six models. Taking a sixth model transforms your unit into a bunch of clingy morons who can't function in basic ways. This makes no sense.

There are also quite a few units that top out at 6 models. Skyweavers, centurions, etc. Although you are entitled to your opinion, it's not very convincing to argue that these units being totally screwed if you make the noob mistake of taking a 6th model is "wasting time making convoluted scenarios that don't matter."

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

RedNoak wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
1) You have to draw the line at some point

WHY?

Because that's how rules work? Because did you bother to consider 3 model units? That things exist in this game beyond just 5 model and 6 model marine units?

yeah there exist literally TWO OTHER THINGS :

3 man units
4 man units

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Why can 5 models conga line out to their hearts' content, but if they get a 6th dude he makes them bunch up and take up less space than they did with 5?

I mean you can keep wasting time making convoluted scenarios that don't matter if you really want.

If that's your inelegant way of apologizing and admitting that I'm right, I accept the apology.

It does matter, for any unit that can take six models. Taking a sixth model transforms your unit into a bunch of clingy morons who can't function in basic ways. This makes no sense.

There are also quite a few units that top out at 6 models. Skyweavers, centurions, etc. Although you are entitled to your opinion, it's not very convincing to argue that these units being totally screwed if you make the noob mistake of taking a 6th model is "wasting time making convoluted scenarios that don't matter."

Except they were never going to take that 6th model anyway as the math for attrition is still 3 models killed for the -1 rule and at 5 models your immune to blast weapons.

Ice_can wrote:
and at 5 models your immune to blast weapons.

no you are not, the opponent just need to role above average to have the same effect with them as if you take 6 models