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So can you ever change your psychic spells from 1 match to another in some sort of tournament?

Read the tournament rules.

As p5freak implies, there is zero guidance on this in the main game rules.

The default for ITC, probably the most widely used tournament style, would allow changing powers between games. However not even every ITC tournament uses the same rules, so potentially this could vary from event to event.

Basically, you need to look at the pack for the specific event you want to attend.

Their house, their rules.

It's entirely up to the whims of the TO.

AFAIK core ruleswise only Chaos Space Marines have the ability to change what powers they know mid game.

My Codex Astra Militarum tells me to generate my psychic powers "Before the battle". Per the FAQ

Q: Certain abilities and Stratagems are used ‘before the battle’. When specifically is this?
A: The game begins when players start the Deployment step of a mission – all abilities and Stratagems that are used ‘before the battle’ must be used before then.

Remember that if both players have ‘before the battle’ abilities they wish to use, and the rules themselves do not explicitly say in which order they should be resolved, the players should roll off – the winner decides in what order they are resolved.

So unless there is a tournament rules stating otherwise, the default rules of W40K allow you to pick your psychic powers before each game.

 alextroy wrote:
My Codex Astra Militarum tells me to generate my psychic powers "Before the battle". Per the FAQ

Q: Certain abilities and Stratagems are used ‘before the battle’. When specifically is this?
A: The game begins when players start the Deployment step of a mission – all abilities and Stratagems that are used ‘before the battle’ must be used before then.

Remember that if both players have ‘before the battle’ abilities they wish to use, and the rules themselves do not explicitly say in which order they should be resolved, the players should roll off – the winner decides in what order they are resolved.

So unless there is a tournament rules stating otherwise, the default rules of W40K allow you to pick your psychic powers before each game.

Except the entirety of list building is done before the battle. And you can't generally change what units you're using between games in a tournament.

 Stux wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
My Codex Astra Militarum tells me to generate my psychic powers "Before the battle". Per the FAQ

Q: Certain abilities and Stratagems are used ‘before the battle’. When specifically is this?
A: The game begins when players start the Deployment step of a mission – all abilities and Stratagems that are used ‘before the battle’ must be used before then.

Remember that if both players have ‘before the battle’ abilities they wish to use, and the rules themselves do not explicitly say in which order they should be resolved, the players should roll off – the winner decides in what order they are resolved.

So unless there is a tournament rules stating otherwise, the default rules of W40K allow you to pick your psychic powers before each game.

Except the entirety of list building is done before the battle. And you can't generally change what units you're using between games in a tournament.

He isn't talking about changing units.
Just making choices about units that have pre-battle choices (relics fall into this category as well).

Now granted there is some influence from previous editions where it was very clear that powers/magic were selected at the start of the battle*, but the 'Before the battle' clause seems clear enough
*oddly, relics have less support in this area, since gear and magic items cost points previously, so had to be part of the army list. But as written now, relics are as flexible as psychic powers, even if in practice some people don't realize they can change it up.

But selecting units is another before the battle choice. Theres no game term that sorts them into different categories.

So any distinction is ultimately arbitrary.

certain armies like grey knights can really change their whole dynamic by changing what psychic powers they take by viewing what army they are facing next

I always liked that relics and psychic powers were decided at the last possible moment, it’s one of the few ways to adapt to your opponent.

If it were up to me, relics and psychic powers would be chosen and declared when a unit is initially deployed, this would clear up any confusion on if it’s part of the army list or something to be chosen before each game. Also it has the added benefit of letting you choose even later for reserves so that you can adapt your strategy to how the game is developing.

I think it makes sense for one psychic skill to be very hard to master, so I could see it like your army list before you start the fight psychers shud have their skills decided

The base rules allow you to choose psychic powers and relics after you see your opponent's army but before the battle begins.

Obviously a TO can have whatever rules they want, but those are the base rules.

 Stux wrote:
But selecting units is another before the battle choice. Theres no game term that sorts them into different categories.

So any distinction is ultimately arbitrary.

This isn't correct. This interpretation would lead to the argument that it is unclear whether you have to declare "before the battle" stratagems on your list, rather than choosing them on a per-game basis, which is obviously not how it works.

The explanation of "before the battle" also explicitly mentions rolling off to see who chooses first, which requires that you have an opponent to roll off against, and means it isn't possible you would have to list these things on your list.

 Stux wrote:
But selecting units is another before the battle choice. Theres no game term that sorts them into different categories.

So any distinction is ultimately arbitrary.

Correct, but it is a different before the battle set. Also, I'm pretty sure it is a step that Tournament rules state you must complete before the tournament begins.

I suggest you consult your rulebook about the steps of playing a game. The steps are:

The Armies
The Battlefield
Deployment
First Turn
etc.

Guys, there’s no point arguing over what the core rules say when the only possible answer is “consult the organiser of the tournament you plan on attending”.

That's not accurate, since you need to know what you can do if the tournament rules do not specifically state what you must do.

Basically, the default position of the game is you pick before deployment. However, a Tournament pack may state you pick during list building. If it doesn't, you go with the default.

 alextroy wrote:
That's not accurate, since you need to know what you can do if the tournament rules do not specifically state what you must do.

What you do is ask the organizer. Making assumptions is likely to get you disqualified if you assumed wrong.

Indeed. My post *was* accurate as it answers the OP’s Q, and because the core rules don’t cover the situation as others had already established. I wish people weren’t so quick for a rebuttal for rebuttal’s sake.

I'll just have to disagree with you both. The rules tell you how to play the game and they tell you when to pick Psychic powers. If the tournament pack doesn't change the rules, you go by the rules.

If the tournament pack doesn't say the first floor of ruins block LOS, you don't need to check with the tournament organizer to be sure they don't.

 alextroy wrote:
I'll just have to disagree with you both. The rules tell you how to play the game and they tell you when to pick Psychic powers. If the tournament pack doesn't change the rules, you go by the rules.

If the tournament pack doesn't say the first floor of ruins block LOS, you don't need to check with the tournament organizer to be sure they don't.

You can disagree all you want but you're wrong. In a tournament if you have any doubt as to how a rule will be played, then the correct answer is to ask the tournament organizer

But if the pack doesn't say don't use the normal rules, is there any doubt?

It doesn't hurt to check with the TO beforehand in case they're expecting the Psychic Powers chosen to be listed on the sheet. Odds are you can choose between games but if there's any doubt at all it's worth checking out so that you don't run into trouble in a later game in the tournament, It's better to err on the side of caution and ask.

 alextroy wrote:
But if the pack doesn't say don't use the normal rules, is there any doubt?

Yes there is doubt, otherwise threads like this wouldn't exist. That's why you go to the organizer as he has the final say in the matter.

To the OP-if you're playing in a tournament, ask your TO. Their's is the only answer that matters.

How I play it is that you see your opponent's list, then you select your Warlord Trait, Relics, Psychic Powers, Litanies, and anything else of that sort.

 alextroy wrote:
My Codex Astra Militarum tells me to generate my psychic powers "Before the battle". Per the FAQ

Q: Certain abilities and Stratagems are used ‘before the battle’. When specifically is this?
A: The game begins when players start the Deployment step of a mission – all abilities and Stratagems that are used ‘before the battle’ must be used before then.

Remember that if both players have ‘before the battle’ abilities they wish to use, and the rules themselves do not explicitly say in which order they should be resolved, the players should roll off – the winner decides in what order they are resolved.

So unless there is a tournament rules stating otherwise, the default rules of W40K allow you to pick your psychic powers before each game.

Generating psychic powers is neither an ability nor a Stratagem, so that FAQ entry does not apply to them.

The fact is that the rules are not written with tournaments in mind, where players keep the same army between rounds. If you're playing a core mission, you actually select your army and set up terrain after deciding on a mission. A tournament by its very nature must have house rules to work around this.

As a regular tournament player their are different standards in different tourneys.

One common set is warlord trait, free relic and sometimes psychic powers are fixed but extra relic, warlord trait etc strategems are on a game by game basis so something like the strat that lets an inquisitor take an extra psychic power would give you a variable power

I have also commonly encountered the nothing is fixed but whats on your list is considered the default.

I've only encountered a few everything is fixed and these tended to be the slightly fluffier events rather than the properly competative onea.

99% of the time its in the rules pack and if not ask your TO


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
I'll just have to disagree with you both. The rules tell you how to play the game and they tell you when to pick Psychic powers. If the tournament pack doesn't change the rules, you go by the rules.

If the tournament pack doesn't say the first floor of ruins block LOS, you don't need to check with the tournament organizer to be sure they don't.

The problem for newer players is that such things can be written in the tournament pack but are written shorthand in such a way that they are not recogniseable.

If i write ITC terrain rules apply that answers your question to most comp players.

I have also seen DWARF terrain rules apply (I select this as obscure example). Now as that is a regional variation I know what that means I would expect other competitive players in the area to know but its not immediatly obvious to new or even experienced players from other regions and you can't google it

Cheex wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
My Codex Astra Militarum tells me to generate my psychic powers "Before the battle". Per the FAQ

Q: Certain abilities and Stratagems are used ‘before the battle’. When specifically is this?
A: The game begins when players start the Deployment step of a mission – all abilities and Stratagems that are used ‘before the battle’ must be used before then.

Remember that if both players have ‘before the battle’ abilities they wish to use, and the rules themselves do not explicitly say in which order they should be resolved, the players should roll off – the winner decides in what order they are resolved.

So unless there is a tournament rules stating otherwise, the default rules of W40K allow you to pick your psychic powers before each game.

Generating psychic powers is neither an ability nor a Stratagem, so that FAQ entry does not apply to them.

The fact is that the rules are not written with tournaments in mind, where players keep the same army between rounds. If you're playing a core mission, you actually select your army and set up terrain after deciding on a mission. A tournament by its very nature must have house rules to work around this.

You must be using different rules them me. Every single Psycher I've seen has rules in the Abilities section of their datasheet. So Psychic power are most definitely abilities. And that is ignoring the fact that GW commonly refers to things not in the Abilities section of datasheets as abilities.

So I stand by my statement. If the tournament pack doesn't tell you do to something differently, you follow the core rules.

U02dah4 wrote:As a regular tournament player their are different standards in different tourneys.

One common set is warlord trait, free relic and sometimes psychic powers are fixed but extra relic, warlord trait etc strategems are on a game by game basis so something like the strat that lets an inquisitor take an extra psychic power would give you a variable power

I have also commonly encountered the nothing is fixed but whats on your list is considered the default.

I've only encountered a few everything is fixed and these tended to be the slightly fluffier events rather than the properly competative onea.

99% of the time its in the rules pack and if not ask your TO


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
I'll just have to disagree with you both. The rules tell you how to play the game and they tell you when to pick Psychic powers. If the tournament pack doesn't change the rules, you go by the rules.

If the tournament pack doesn't say the first floor of ruins block LOS, you don't need to check with the tournament organizer to be sure they don't.

The problem for newer players is that such things can be written in the tournament pack but are written shorthand in such a way that they are not recogniseable.

If i write ITC terrain rules apply that answers your question to most comp players.

I have also seen DWARF terrain rules apply (I select this as obscure example). Now as that is a regional variation I know what that means I would expect other competitive players in the area to know but its not immediatly obvious to new or even experienced players from other regions and you can't google it

All true. And when a player sees something in a tournament pack they don't understand, that is exactly when they should contact the tournament organizer. What I'm sure most tournament organizers don't want is to receive is dozens of emails asking "can I do X" or "how are you handling Y" when they are clearly in the tournament pack or basic rules.

 alextroy wrote:

All true. And when a player sees something in a tournament pack they don't understand, that is exactly when they should contact the tournament organizer. What I'm sure most tournament organizers don't want is to receive is dozens of emails asking "can I do X" or "how are you handling Y" when they are clearly in the tournament pack or basic rules.

But you're talking about a situation where it's not in the rules pack, so it doesn't hurt to check with the TO. If they don't like getting inundated with questions about whether the powers chosen can be changed between games or stay static, then they'll probably list it in their next tournament pack to make it clear.

Tournaments also tend to be "local", where the organizers and many of the attendees "know how they play it". So while it may not be in the rule pack, it may be commonly understood. If you're travelling to a tournament, or playing in an unfamiliar setting/group, then it doesn't hurt to ask.

You know what happens when you assume.