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my 2 battalions of intercessors is going to be turned into 1. Warlord Captain + 2 LT's + Champlain. I get 12 CP and am immiediately dropping like 4-5 on upgrading my warlord into a Chapter Master and adding a Idomitus Cohourt or w/e and will have 8-9 CP left instead of like 6? I love this. Gives my Primaris Imperial Fists a decent buff, a little down about the points cost increase, but overall thats healthy for the gamee.

Rahdok wrote:
my 2 battalions of intercessors is going to be turned into 1. Warlord Captain + 2 LT's + Champlain. I get 12 CP and am immiediately dropping like 4-5 on upgrading my warlord into a Chapter Master and adding a Idomitus Cohourt or w/e and will have 8-9 CP left instead of like 6? I love this. Gives my Primaris Imperial Fists a decent buff, a little down about the points cost increase, but overall thats healthy for the gamee.

No it won't too many HQ's. You maxed at 3 thats 4 in that list.

Yeah if the new system had the goal to remove things like the loyal32, well it will fail miserably unless small detachments cost lots of CPs. If a knight army could have 8-9 CPs by adding the loyal32, now it gets 12+6-"the AM detachment that provides the cheap screeners". We already know that battallions cost 3 points so the knight army gets the same soup and even more CPs than in 8th, as the loyal32 in addition to a core knight detachment guarantees 9+6 CPs.

The loyal32 may be dead for the purpose of providing CPs, but they'll still exist for the purpose to provide cheap screeners.

The assumes that acess to a second codex is 0CP (which it's not supposed to be.

Soup is still going to be a thing they were not trying to make it unviable just make it not the Only way to play 50% of the factiosn either.

Mono gets 3 or More CP to ofset the advantages of soups is that enough I'm not sure but it's better than 8th editions CP disaster.

Karol wrote:
I wonder how cult players are going to be playing their armies without taking detachments from the tyranid codex. That book was not designed with mono in mind, quite the opposite probably.

On the other hand, this is a golden opportunity for GW to finally realize not having chapter tactics or obsec is not worth a 25% price hike for Genestealers

 Blackie wrote:
Yeah if the new system had the goal to remove things like the loyal32, well it will fail miserably unless small detachments cost lots of CPs. If a knight army could have 8-9 CPs by adding the loyal32, now it gets 12+6-"the AM detachment that provides the cheap screeners". We already know that battallions cost 3 points so the knight army gets the same soup and even more CPs than in 8th, as the loyal32 in addition to a core knight detachment guarantees 9+6 CPs.

The loyal32 may be dead for the purpose of providing CPs, but they'll still exist for the purpose to provide cheap screeners.

I lent out my IG dex prior to quarantine, so I don't have it on me.

But I think that in a Knight Army, the Loyal 32 would give no command points; if it's a knight army, you can't use IG relics and your warlord won't be IG either, and the detachment itself costs CPO rather than granting CP.

Now sure, I think there are strats in the IG dex like there are in the others that let you use a Warlord trait as if you were a Warlord when you aren't, and that let you use an extra relic (I'd have to read the text of the strat to determine whether this one would work); both of those increase your CP cost.

The other thing is, though they didn't explain it in more depth once the got to the detachment rules, they did mention a CP cost to unlock additional dexes. Some have assumed, since there has been no additional mention of it, that the detachment costs ARE the extra cost for the extra dex. Not an unreasonable assumption, however I still expect an additional CP cost for a second dex ON TOP of the detachment cost.

Now of course, if you take the Guard army with the Knights as allies, you could take the CP farm WL Trait + Relic without burning CP to do it, but the special detachment rules for Knights might require your WL to be a knight, and the strats that grant virtual WL only do so for the Trait; I'm not sure because I don't have the Knight dex. But if that's the case, it punishes all allied Knights, except Admech Knights, because they're in the Admech dex.

But I think what you're going to find is that when everyone starts with 12 CP and gets 1 per turn in addition to that, people aren't going to go out of their way to get more. I mean, if they can get them conveniently, they'll take them, sure, but with everyone getting a theoretical 17 CP, building for CP isn't going to be anyone's priority. Of course, that changes in the smaller games where you don't get 12 cp- at 500 points, the IG CP engine is just as much of a game changer as it ever was.

Bringing Loyal 32 for screening would still be valid, but I think there may be better things you could bring to do it.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Canoness Bless sword
Canoness Bless sword
Canoness Cheerleader
Celestine
BSS x10 MP, 2 Melta
BSS x10 x2 SB, Chainsword
BSS x10 x2 SB, Chainsword
BSS x10 x2 SB, Chainsword
BSS x10 x2 SB, Chainsword
BSS x10 x2 SB, Chainsword
Dialogus
Imagifier
Imagifier
Doms x10, x4 SB
Doms x10, x4 SB
Doms x10, x4 SB
Seraphim x10, x2 HF's
Seraphim x10, x2 HF's
Seraphim x10, x2 HF's
Rets x5, x4 HB's
Rets x5, x4 HB's
Rets x5, x4 HB's
152 models.

I was doing Rhino rush in beta with 7 Rhinos (3 Repressors) all with a 4++ but they was nerfed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But my point is, I DIDN"T do it for CP.

It was AN EXAMPLE that not everyone IGNORES troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also nids don't ignore troops if taking Genstealers

So close to fitting into a Brigade. So you have two choices:
1) Brigade + Outrider and lose some CP
2) Drop a Canoness and turn one Dominion squad into Celestian squad and use the extra points for something for a Brigade. And this might be necessary anyway due to the promised points increase.

PenitentJake wrote:


But I think that in a Knight Army, the Loyal 32 would give no command points; if it's a knight army, you can't use IG relics and your warlord won't be IG either, and the detachment itself costs CPO rather than granting CP.

What? CPs have never been faction/detachment locked. In 8th the loyal32 provides 5CPs to the entire list, not specifically to the AM battallion. An army like knights get more CPs and cheap bodies, both things that desperately need.

With 9th system, adding a loyal32 battallion to a knight army still provide cheap bodies (and conveniently they're not even 11+man squads) but at the same time it doesn't cost too many CPs as the player would get 9+6, which is actually even more than what he could get with that loyal32 battallion in 8th. The point is that the loyal32 cost CPs now, but not too many: the fun fact is that the Knight detachment+The loyal32 combo in 9th provides more CPs than the same combination in 8th, even with a theoretical penatly of using two codexes (unless it's a very high CPs tax), and I don't think knights lists need 12+6 CPs anyway.

Still a soup with no real drawback.

 Blackie wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:


But I think that in a Knight Army, the Loyal 32 would give no command points; if it's a knight army, you can't use IG relics and your warlord won't be IG either, and the detachment itself costs CPO rather than granting CP.

What? CPs have never been faction/detachment locked. In 8th the loyal32 provides 5CPs to the entire list, not specifically to the AM battallion. An army like knights get more CPs and cheap bodies, both things that desperately need.

With 9th system, adding a loyal32 battallion to a knight army still provide cheap bodies (and conveniently they're not even 11+man squads) but at the same time it doesn't cost too many CPs as the player would get 9+6, which is actually even more than what he could get with that loyal32 battallion in 8th. The point is that the loyal32 cost CPs now, but not too many: the fun fact is that the Knight detachment+The loyal32 combo in 9th provides more CPs than the same combination in 8th, even with a theoretical penatly of using two codexes (unless it's a very high CPs tax), and I don't think knights lists need 12+6 CPs anyway.

Still a soup with no real drawback.

A Knight Lance plus Loyal 32 gives 14 CP (6+5+3) in 8th Edition. Assuming a Knight Lance in 9th removes the CP cost of the Super Heavy Detachment, a Knight Lance plus Loyal 32 will give no more than 8+6 CP (12-3-X for second Codex, with X being at least 1). It might be a wash over the long term, but being down 6 CP on turn 1 is a rather big deal, especially after spending a bunch on making Knights characters and gaining relics.

Ice_can wrote:
No it won't too many HQ's. You maxed at 3 thats 4 in that list.

Lt. two-for-one FA discount (it seems likely Company Heroes isn't going anywhere??)

 Blackie wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:


But I think that in a Knight Army, the Loyal 32 would give no command points; if it's a knight army, you can't use IG relics and your warlord won't be IG either, and the detachment itself costs CPO rather than granting CP.

What? CPs have never been faction/detachment locked. In 8th the loyal32 provides 5CPs to the entire list, not specifically to the AM battallion. An army like knights get more CPs and cheap bodies, both things that desperately need.

With 9th system, adding a loyal32 battallion to a knight army still provide cheap bodies (and conveniently they're not even 11+man squads) but at the same time it doesn't cost too many CPs as the player would get 9+6, which is actually even more than what he could get with that loyal32 battallion in 8th. The point is that the loyal32 cost CPs now, but not too many: the fun fact is that the Knight detachment+The loyal32 combo in 9th provides more CPs than the same combination in 8th, even with a theoretical penatly of using two codexes (unless it's a very high CPs tax), and I don't think knights lists need 12+6 CPs anyway.

Still a soup with no real drawback.

My point is that you don't get any CP for taking the Loyal 32 in 9th. If you include them, you will have 9CP + 1CP/ Turn - any penalty for a second dex. Yes, that might be more than the combination would have gotten you in 8th, but that is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the same army without the 32 would have 12 CP + 1/turn. This means that non- Soup has 3 more CP minimum more than you, and that's assuming a multi-dex penalty of 0, which is unlikely.

As for faction locking, I never meant to imply that CP were faction locked. The misunderstanding came from your notation of 9 + 6. Since that's only true if a game lasts 6 turns, I assumed the 6 in your formula was coming from the absurd IG CP generation that results from the combination of the IG WL Trait + Relic. That was my bad. Those things are faction locked. You can only take Relics for your Warlord's faction. Because CP aren't faction locked, you might be able to get CP based virtual access to the WL trait, (also my bad- not sure why I thought you might not be able to get that, but again, I leant out my dex, so I can't check the wording on the strat).

If you could use that WL Trait and Relic, yes, I realize that any CP generated could be used by the entire army. My argument is merely that you might not be able to use the WL Trait and Relic on your guard if the army is a Knight army.

And BTW, I know it's more keystrokes, but 9 + 1/ Turn is WAY more accurate than 9 + 6. Maybe in 9th a game might actually last 6 turns, but don't most people on Dakka complain that in 8th most games ended by tabling the opponent by turn 3?

Honestly I have no issues with a knight army bringing along some Guard allies for tactical purposes on the tabletop. That’s great. It’s bringing them along for magic mana points that was a bit meh.

 alextroy wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Canoness Bless sword
Canoness Bless sword
Canoness Cheerleader
Celestine
BSS x10 MP, 2 Melta
BSS x10 x2 SB, Chainsword
BSS x10 x2 SB, Chainsword
BSS x10 x2 SB, Chainsword
BSS x10 x2 SB, Chainsword
BSS x10 x2 SB, Chainsword
Dialogus
Imagifier
Imagifier
Doms x10, x4 SB
Doms x10, x4 SB
Doms x10, x4 SB
Seraphim x10, x2 HF's
Seraphim x10, x2 HF's
Seraphim x10, x2 HF's
Rets x5, x4 HB's
Rets x5, x4 HB's
Rets x5, x4 HB's
152 models.

I was doing Rhino rush in beta with 7 Rhinos (3 Repressors) all with a 4++ but they was nerfed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But my point is, I DIDN"T do it for CP.

It was AN EXAMPLE that not everyone IGNORES troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also nids don't ignore troops if taking Genstealers

So close to fitting into a Brigade. So you have two choices:
1) Brigade + Outrider and lose some CP
2) Drop a Canoness and turn one Dominion squad into Celestian squad and use the extra points for something for a Brigade. And this might be necessary anyway due to the promised points increase.

My point was some people value troops, I have 60 troop models. Sadly I'll most likely go back down to 5mans with Blast rules, but my point still stands.

the_scotsman wrote:

Karol wrote:
I wonder how cult players are going to be playing their armies without taking detachments from the tyranid codex. That book was not designed with mono in mind, quite the opposite probably.

On the other hand, this is a golden opportunity for GW to finally realize not having chapter tactics or obsec is not worth a 25% price hike for Genestealers

GW can realise all they want for all I care. With my army they knew they done goof, at worse by the time first errata/faq came out and then it took them 2 years, to kind of a fix them in PA4. What GW knows or thinks matters less, then with what peopl are suppose to play right now. If someone started 6 months ago, then they didn't have much time to play, and if now they were to wait another 12-24 months for GW to fix cult armies, then there is a big chance that those players are not going to see those change, because they will leave way before that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:


My point was some people value troops, I have 60 troop models. Sadly I'll most likely go back down to 5mans with Blast rules, but my point still stands.

Maybe people who either have cheap troop options or good troops. And that is not the option for all armies.

Karol wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Karol wrote:
I wonder how cult players are going to be playing their armies without taking detachments from the tyranid codex. That book was not designed with mono in mind, quite the opposite probably.

On the other hand, this is a golden opportunity for GW to finally realize not having chapter tactics or obsec is not worth a 25% price hike for Genestealers

GW can realise all they want for all I care. With my army they knew they done goof, at worse by the time first errata/faq came out and then it took them 2 years, to kind of a fix them in PA4. What GW knows or thinks matters less, then with what peopl are suppose to play right now. If someone started 6 months ago, then they didn't have much time to play, and if now they were to wait another 12-24 months for GW to fix cult armies, then there is a big chance that those players are not going to see those change, because they will leave way before that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:


My point was some people value troops, I have 60 troop models. Sadly I'll most likely go back down to 5mans with Blast rules, but my point still stands.

Maybe people who either have cheap troop options or good troops. And that is not the option for all armies.

The point was agaist a flat remark, so.. well yeah.

 alextroy wrote:
A Knight Lance plus Loyal 32 gives 14 CP (6+5+3) in 8th Edition. Assuming a Knight Lance in 9th removes the CP cost of the Super Heavy Detachment, a Knight Lance plus Loyal 32 will give no more than 8+6 CP (12-3-X for second Codex, with X being at least 1). It might be a wash over the long term, but being down 6 CP on turn 1 is a rather big deal, especially after spending a bunch on making Knights characters and gaining relics.

I don't see any reason to take the loyal 32, battalion is 3 points, and a patrol will be less, probably only 1CP (with spearhead, vanguard, airwing, and outrider costing 2cp). Another strike is It seems like the CP cost they were talking in regards to additional factions is the cost of the additional detachments, because you can't mix factions in a single detachment. So unless they come out and say that factions beyond the first will cost additional CP, on top of the detachment cost, I would assume your wrong. So that would mean that a knight lance + the loyal 31 would start with 12, lose one for the patrol, and gain one their first round. By the third round they've broken even, and subsequent rounds they are ahead on CP. The worst off they are is 2 CP down at the beginning of the command phase of the first round, not 6. Also they don't have to bring the loyal 32, they can go monofaction and be swimming in CP unlike current, so this is a huge buff for knights, and other elite factions like custodes and necrons.

The main reason to soup in 8th ed was CP, and now that won't work, we'll see less soup. However, there are still some compelling reasons to soup, so I don't expect it to disappear completely. I think the most common soup of the 9th ed will be splashes to get specific stratagems (eg agents of vect) using a patrol detachments. The other type of soup will be armies that are lacking in some regard (like knights lacking bodies) rounding out their forces.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Canoness Bless sword
Canoness Bless sword
Canoness Cheerleader
Celestine
BSS x10 MP, 2 Melta
BSS x10 x2 SB, Chainsword
BSS x10 x2 SB, Chainsword
BSS x10 x2 SB, Chainsword
BSS x10 x2 SB, Chainsword
BSS x10 x2 SB, Chainsword
Dialogus
Imagifier
Imagifier
Doms x10, x4 SB
Doms x10, x4 SB
Doms x10, x4 SB
Seraphim x10, x2 HF's
Seraphim x10, x2 HF's
Seraphim x10, x2 HF's
Rets x5, x4 HB's
Rets x5, x4 HB's
Rets x5, x4 HB's
152 models.

Good in 8th ed. This will suck in 9th though. The rhino rush nerf was mild compared to how this got nerfed. They will be shot off the board super fast and have no weapons against vehicles and monsters that will be prevalent. Further more with killy 2ndaries even objectives are less of a worry.

In the Live Streams Stu mentioned that it cost CP to unlock each additional codex. Which makes sense or taking 2 subfactions costs the same CP as 2 complete codex's.

Patrol is probably 2CP not 1 as rading force was mentioned
Also 1CP is not even a cost in reality.

It very much is, if your codex is build around using 4+ CP per turn. But as always older books are going to be hurt more then new ones.