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JakeSiren wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

Sure, but the effects of the stratagem of Cloaked by the Storm and Howl of the Great Pack are considered as auras by the BRB definition anyway, so it's a clarification on interaction - they each give a unit abilities that affect certain models within a given range.

There are a lot of abilities that affect certain models within a given range. By the rulebook definition smite is also an aura ability, because psychic powers are abilities, and smite affects certain models within a given range. Does EFCM shut down smite ?

Smite isn't an ability that a unit has, so by definition it can not be an aura.

You are also wrong about psychic powers being aura abilities. A psyker knows a number of psychic powers, and has the ability to attempt to manifest psychic powers. But that ability to manifest psychic power itself is not an aura. A manifested psychic power isn't an aura either as it is not an ability that belongs to a unit.

A psychic power can however grant an ability to a unit that affects certain models within a given range. That ability would be considered an aura.

Psychic powers are abilities. I already quoted the relevant rule from the core rules in this thread. Here it is again :

1. Choose Psyker and Power
Some models are noted as being a
Psyker on their datasheet. Psykers can
manifest their otherworldly abilities and
attempt to deny enemy sorceries.

tneva82 wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
You know my thoughts on 100 kroot....

But my point still stands. 1 CP for that is vastly undercosted. For the payback you get. Shutting an entire IG army down turn one? Robbie G being useless?

Nah definite overreach.

Andrew

Well good luck getting near it. KFF on orks? Good luck getting that copter in movement phase within 6" of the mek. The bubble is 9" and tends to be filled with orks to benefit from the 5++ and the base of copter isn't that small...

BTW sanctum you only lose the morale boost/debuff vs chaos. Woo! Scary...not.

You're missing the point I was making. It doesn't matter how difficult it may be to get the flyer into range, and remember the rules for 9th have been altered in some way to change they way flyer bases interact on movement, it's what the final effect is. I have already said that there are easy workarounds to avoid/alleviate the effect. It's the fact that it can do this in the first place and for so cheaply was the point.

Andrew

 p5freak wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

Sure, but the effects of the stratagem of Cloaked by the Storm and Howl of the Great Pack are considered as auras by the BRB definition anyway, so it's a clarification on interaction - they each give a unit abilities that affect certain models within a given range.

There are a lot of abilities that affect certain models within a given range. By the rulebook definition smite is also an aura ability, because psychic powers are abilities, and smite affects certain models within a given range. Does EFCM shut down smite ?

Smite isn't an ability that a unit has, so by definition it can not be an aura.

You are also wrong about psychic powers being aura abilities. A psyker knows a number of psychic powers, and has the ability to attempt to manifest psychic powers. But that ability to manifest psychic power itself is not an aura. A manifested psychic power isn't an aura either as it is not an ability that belongs to a unit.

A psychic power can however grant an ability to a unit that affects certain models within a given range. That ability would be considered an aura.

Psychic powers are abilities. I already quoted the relevant rule from the core rules in this thread. Here it is again :

1. Choose Psyker and Power
Some models are noted as being a
Psyker on their datasheet. Psykers can
manifest their otherworldly abilities and
attempt to deny enemy sorceries.

You just demonstrated that the "psychic ability" doesn't belong to the Psyker unit. As I said, the Psykers have the ability to attempt to manifest psychic powers, which is what your quoted text confirms. The ability to manifest an ability is different from having the ability itself.

A good example of an ability giving another ability is the Space Wolves warlord traits. You have an ability (sagas), that under certain conditions, grants you another ability (in this case converting a warlord trait ability into an aura).

The "smite ability" is not an ability given to a Psyker unit, as of such it fails the criterion to be considered an aura.

JakeSiren wrote:

You just demonstrated that the "psychic ability" doesn't belong to the Psyker unit.

A psyker doesnt have psychic abilities ? But he can manifest an ability that doesnt belong to him ? That makes 0 sense.

JakeSiren wrote:
The ability to manifest an ability is different from having the ability itself.

Citation please.

 p5freak wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

You just demonstrated that the "psychic ability" doesn't belong to the Psyker unit. As I said, the Psykers have the ability to attempt to manifest psychic powers, which is what your quoted text confirms.

A psyker doesnt have psychic abilities ? But he can manifest an ability that doesnt belong to him ? That makes 0 sense.

Fixed that for you. Whatever your point is has been lost by the disingenuity of your quoting.

 p5freak wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
The ability to manifest an ability is different from having the ability itself.

Citation please.

Off the top of my head, My Will Be Done (Codex: Necron), Deeds of Legend (Codex: Space Wolves), Warp Vortex (Codex: Thousand Sons)
These are all examples of abilities that manifest other abilities, and are different from having the manifested ability.

JakeSiren wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

You just demonstrated that the "psychic ability" doesn't belong to the Psyker unit. As I said, the Psykers have the ability to attempt to manifest psychic powers, which is what your quoted text confirms.

A psyker doesnt have psychic abilities ? But he can manifest an ability that doesnt belong to him ? That makes 0 sense.

Fixed that for you. Whatever your point is has been lost by the disingenuity of your quoting.

 p5freak wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
The ability to manifest an ability is different from having the ability itself.

Citation please.

Off the top of my head, My Will Be Done (Codex: Necron), Deeds of Legend (Codex: Space Wolves), Warp Vortex (Codex: Thousand Sons)
These are all examples of abilities that manifest other abilities, and are different from having the manifested ability.

Whatever you say makes 0 sense.

 p5freak wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

You just demonstrated that the "psychic ability" doesn't belong to the Psyker unit. As I said, the Psykers have the ability to attempt to manifest psychic powers, which is what your quoted text confirms.

A psyker doesnt have psychic abilities ? But he can manifest an ability that doesnt belong to him ? That makes 0 sense.

Fixed that for you. Whatever your point is has been lost by the disingenuity of your quoting.

 p5freak wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
The ability to manifest an ability is different from having the ability itself.

Citation please.

Off the top of my head, My Will Be Done (Codex: Necron), Deeds of Legend (Codex: Space Wolves), Warp Vortex (Codex: Thousand Sons)
These are all examples of abilities that manifest other abilities, and are different from having the manifested ability.

Whatever you say makes 0 sense.

Sounds like you are conceding that I am correct. If not, then how about you prove your position instead.

An aura ability is when a "unit [has] abilities that affect certain models within a given range" as per BRB.
As per the wording on datasheets and the psychic phase, Psykers know powers such as smite. This is not an ability they have. The ability they have is "Unit X can attempt to manifest Y psychic powers in each friendly Psychic phase, and attempt to deny Z psychih powers in each enemy Psychic phase. He knows the Smite power and A psychic powers from the B discipline"

Show me when the Psyker Unit gains the "smite ability", because reading the above in conjunction with the psychic rules, they never do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@OP, in terms of aura's the BRB casts a wide net. However, generally speaking you need to have an ability that is associated with a unit, and that affects other units within a given range of that original unit. The ability can either be something on their datasheet (such as re-rolls), or granted by the effects of a stratagem or psychic power (such as null zone). The stratagems and powers themselves aren't auras. You will however typically see a common theme with auras granted by stratagems and powers. They will typically have a time limit (ex: until your next psychic phase), target a unit (select a friendly unit), and have an effect for units around this unit (reroll 1s for unit's within 6"). I hope this clears things up as to what is an aura.

tneva82 wrote:


Well good luck getting near it. KFF on orks? Good luck getting that copter in movement phase within 6" of the mek. The bubble is 9" and tends to be filled with orks to benefit from the 5++ and the base of copter isn't that small...

BTW sanctum you only lose the morale boost/debuff vs chaos. Woo! Scary...not.

So, does it only shut down the ability if it gets in range of the model that has the ability, or does it stop the effects of the ability applying to any model within 6" of the copter? I feel the wording is somewhat ambiguous on that point.

JakeSiren wrote:

Show me when the Psyker Unit gains the "smite ability", because reading the above in conjunction with the psychic rules, they never do.

"This model can attempt to manifest two psychic powers in your Psychic phase and attempt to deny one psychic power in your opponent’s Psychic phase. It knows Smite and two psychic powers from the Librarius discipline." - Space Marines – Librarian Dataslate


How would it know smite yet not gain the smite ability?

 Kcalehc wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Well good luck getting near it. KFF on orks? Good luck getting that copter in movement phase within 6" of the mek. The bubble is 9" and tends to be filled with orks to benefit from the 5++ and the base of copter isn't that small...

BTW sanctum you only lose the morale boost/debuff vs chaos. Woo! Scary...not.

So, does it only shut down the ability if it gets in range of the model that has the ability, or does it stop the effects of the ability applying to any model within 6" of the copter? I feel the wording is somewhat ambiguous on that point.

Sanctum looses nothing its neutral

Aura abilities have no effect within 6" of the arceocopter seems pretty self explanatory.

An arceocopter 6" from a smash cpt would prevent its aura from functioning on any models within 6" of it.

Those models 6" from the cpt but not 6" from the arceocopter have the rr1's aura

As to the cpt unless his whole base is within 6" of the arceocopter he has an aura

There's an interesting point, models only lose the abilities while within 6".

So if a Tau Commander calls a Mont'ka while within 6" on a Riptide also within 6" and the subsequently move out of the AM "bubble" do they then get to fire without penalty?

Andrew

EFCM doesn't disable abilities so the Tau commander can declare Mont'ka while wholey within 6" of the EFCM.

he then has the Aura tau empire units within 6" can advance and move as if they hadn't moved this turn.

EFCM disables the effect of that Aura within its 6" bubble. Any Aura outside of that bubble continues as normal.

If the Tau commander then moves so does its aura. Any part of its Aura not within 6" of the EFCM is now active.

For completeness if any part of the Tau commanders base is not covered by EFCM after it has moved Mont'ka will effect it

Aura abilities from any enemy model within 6" of the copter have no effect.

 p5freak wrote:
Aura abilities from any enemy model within 6" of the copter have no effect.

Yes, while within 6" they have no effect. However if they then move out of that bubble do the abilities come back? The strategy wording seems to imply they do.

 AndrewC wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Aura abilities from any enemy model within 6" of the copter have no effect.

Yes, while within 6" they have no effect. However if they then move out of that bubble do the abilities come back? The strategy wording seems to imply they do.

Yes, outside the bubble they come back. Also, if you're in the bubble, the abilities come back at the start of the next turn (at least until the end of his movement phase, where he can use EFCM again).

U02dah4 wrote:
EFCM doesn't disable abilities so the Tau commander can declare Mont'ka while wholey within 6" of the EFCM.

he then has the Aura tau empire units within 6" can advance and move as if they hadn't moved this turn.

EFCM disables the effect of that Aura within its 6" bubble. Any Aura outside of that bubble continues as normal.

If the Tau commander then moves so does its aura. Any part of its Aura not within 6" of the EFCM is now active.

For completeness if any part of the Tau commanders base is not covered by EFCM after it has moved Mont'ka will effect it

This is not how it works. If the tau commander is within 6" of the EFCM copter he can declare montka, but it has no effect. Its irrelevant whether other tau units are outside of the 6" bubble of the copter. Where the commander is matters, he must be more than 6" away from the copter, then montka works as described.
Its different for kauyon, which works at the start of the movement phase. The commander is still within 6" of the EFCM copter, so kauyon has no effect. When he moves away from the copter the start of the movement phase has passed and kauyon can no longer be used.

No you are incorrect that is precisely how it works

" untill the start of your next turn enemy units aura abilities have no effect whilst within 6".


Not "untill the start of your next turn the aura abilities of enemy units within 6" have no effect."

The aura abilities are targeted by the ability not the units. So the aura abilities stop functioning within 6" of the copter not the units themselves stop projecting auras.

If the tau commander has part of his aura obscured then within the obscured part its aura the aura has no effect. outside the obscured part there is nothing saying his rule has no effect so it continues

U02dah4 wrote:
No you are incorrect that is precisely how it works

" untill the start of your next turn enemy units aura abilities have no effect whilst within 6".


Not "untill the start of your next turn the aura abilities of enemy units within 6" have no effect."

The aura abilities are targeted by the ability not the units. So the aura abilities stop functioning within 6" of the copter not the units themselves stop projecting auras.

If the tau commander has part of his aura obscured then within the obscured part its aura has no effect outside the obscured part there is nothing saying his rule has no effect so it continues

The aura ability from the commander is targeted by EFCM, it has no effect. Either the aura ability has an effect, or not. Its on or off, there is no partial effect for some units outside of the EFCM 6" bubble.

Where does it say that.

It only says the aura abilities have no effect within 6 of the copter

Nowhere does it say units lose aura abilities it would need to say "the aura abilities of enemy units" but it doesn't

U02dah4 wrote:
Where does it say that.

It only says the aura abilities have no effect within 6 of the copter

Nowhere does it say units lose aura abilities

It says enemy units aura abilities, which means the aura ability from the tau commander has no effect.

...enemy units aura abilities have no effect whilst within 6".

 p5freak wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Where does it say that.

It only says the aura abilities have no effect within 6 of the copter

Nowhere does it say units lose aura abilities

It says enemy units aura abilities, which means the aura ability from the tau commander has no effect.

...enemy units aura abilities have no effect whilst within 6".

By that reading then aslong as the model with the aura is outwith 6 it will still effect models within 6 inches of the copter.

 p5freak wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Where does it say that.

It only says the aura abilities have no effect within 6 of the copter

Nowhere does it say units lose aura abilities

It says enemy units aura abilities, which means the aura ability from the tau commander has no effect.

...enemy units aura abilities have no effect whilst within 6".

It does not say enemy units aura abilities,
It says "enemy models aura abilities have no effect whilst within 6" of that unit"

There is no comma.

Even if you seperated that way it doesn't support your position - it would need to be "enemy units, aura abilities" implying a targeting of the enemy unit

As you say it targets the aura ability and says thaat ability has no effect whilst within 6" it says nothing about outside of the 6
And you agree it does not target the enemy unit

U02dah4 wrote:

It does not say enemy units aura abilities,
It says "enemy models aura abilities have no effect whilst within 6" of that unit"

There is no comma.

Even if you seperated that way it doesn't support your position - it would need to be "enemy units, aura abilities" implying a targeting of the enemy unit

As you say it targets the aura ability and says thaat ability has no effect whilst within 6" it says nothing about outside of the 6
And you agree it does not target the enemy unit

Ah, i get now. Yes, i think you are right. Any enemy units inside the 6" bubble are affected by EFCM. Units outside the 6" bubble arent affected, and aura abilities work.

So, if a unit that wholly within 9" of a Morkanaut with KFF would be partially within 6" of the flyer, nothing prevents me from still taking my 5++ saves as long as I keep allocating the wounds to models outside of the stratagem's effect, right?

 Jidmah wrote:
So, if a unit that wholly within 9" of a Morkanaut with KFF would be partially within 6" of the flyer, nothing prevents me from still taking my 5++ saves as long as I keep allocating the wounds to models outside of the stratagem's effect, right?

Yes.

 Jidmah wrote:
So, if a unit that wholly within 9" of a Morkanaut with KFF would be partially within 6" of the flyer, nothing prevents me from still taking my 5++ saves as long as I keep allocating the wounds to models outside of the stratagem's effect, right?

Agreed with p5 freak - yes, that's perfectly legal.

Why would you only have to pick models outside 6"? The KFF works on the whole unit, not on individual models. If the whole unit is within the KFF range, and not wholly covered by the 6" from the copter, I don't see why you wouldn't get the 5++ on every model, even the ones within the range of the copter.

It's the same reason that the strat does nothing against shield drones unless it covers the whole unit. Aura abilities the entire unit possesses can't be turned off piecemeal just because you covered one or more of the models. You need to cover the entire unit or the aura isn't suppressed on any of them, because there is still one model with the aura projecting it.

The ones covered by the 6" bubble lose their aura abilities, but as long as there's still at least one model outside the 6", wouldn't the entire unit retain the ability, as long as the ability is allocated by unit, not by model?

yukishiro1 wrote:
Why would you only have to pick models outside 6"? The KFF works on the whole unit, not on individual models. If the whole unit is within the KFF range, and not wholly covered by the 6" from the copter, I don't see why you wouldn't get the 5++ on every model, even the ones within the range of the copter.

It's the same reason that the strat does nothing against shield drones unless it covers the whole unit. Aura abilities the entire unit possesses can't be turned off piecemeal just because you covered one or more of the models. You need to cover the entire unit or the aura isn't suppressed on any of them, because there is still one model with the aura projecting it.

The ones covered by the 6" bubble lose their aura abilities, but as long as there's still at least one model outside the 6", wouldn't the entire unit retain the ability, as long as the ability is allocated by unit, not by model?

Saves are done by the model, not by the unit. If the model's within the range that aura abilities don't work, it wouldn't get the KFF save..EFCM states"enemy models aura abilities have no effect whilst within 6" of that unit." note that it's also dealing on a model basis, not a unit basis.

Err, guys, the Mek is the one with the Aura. The Mek is the one that needs to be within 6" to have it be turned off, the unit affected by the KFF doesn't care if it is or isn't.

 doctortom wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Why would you only have to pick models outside 6"? The KFF works on the whole unit, not on individual models. If the whole unit is within the KFF range, and not wholly covered by the 6" from the copter, I don't see why you wouldn't get the 5++ on every model, even the ones within the range of the copter.

It's the same reason that the strat does nothing against shield drones unless it covers the whole unit. Aura abilities the entire unit possesses can't be turned off piecemeal just because you covered one or more of the models. You need to cover the entire unit or the aura isn't suppressed on any of them, because there is still one model with the aura projecting it.

The ones covered by the 6" bubble lose their aura abilities, but as long as there's still at least one model outside the 6", wouldn't the entire unit retain the ability, as long as the ability is allocated by unit, not by model?

Saves are done by the model, not by the unit. If the model's within the range that aura abilities don't work, it wouldn't get the KFF save..EFCM states"enemy models aura abilities have no effect whilst within 6" of that unit." note that it's also dealing on a model basis, not a unit basis.

But the entire unit gets the 5++ if it is wholly within the 9". The KFF doesn't say "models within 9" get the save, as an individual ability." It says the whole unit gets it.

Saves are done individually...but the entire unit gains a 5++. Note that this is unlike, say, cover. Unless the entire unit is covered by the 6" suppression bubble, one model in the unit still has a "this unit gets a 5++" ability, and that gives it to the entire unit, because it's by unit, not by model.

This is all assuming that we read the strat to stop models within 6" from getting the impact of auras, rather than reading it to say that it turns off auras that originate within 6" of the copter. If it's the latter, then the only question is whether the KFF-generating unit is within the 6".




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Err, guys, the Mek is the one with the Aura. The Mek is the one that needs to be within 6" to have it be turned off, the unit affected by the KFF doesn't care if it is or isn't.

I would tend to read it that way too, but it's not entirely grammatically clear. It doesn't help that there's a typo in the strat, suggesting it wasn't properly proofread and thought about carefully anyway.