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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
GW once again proved they don't understand problems with melee again with the release if this Stratagem. Nobody is going to think twice about falling back because of this Stratagem existing, simply because opening up that unit to be shot is always worth the 1-2 Mortal Wounds you MIGHT receive. The Stratagem could be free and people would still forget it exists.

CC doesn't make sense in a game about shooting lasers with mile long ranges. Just get rid of CC entirely from the game.

 Togusa wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
GW once again proved they don't understand problems with melee again with the release if this Stratagem. Nobody is going to think twice about falling back because of this Stratagem existing, simply because opening up that unit to be shot is always worth the 1-2 Mortal Wounds you MIGHT receive. The Stratagem could be free and people would still forget it exists.

CC doesn't make sense in a game about shooting lasers with mile long ranges. Just get rid of CC entirely from the game.

I mean that's my inescapable logical conclusion as well.

Martel732 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
GW once again proved they don't understand problems with melee again with the release if this Stratagem. Nobody is going to think twice about falling back because of this Stratagem existing, simply because opening up that unit to be shot is always worth the 1-2 Mortal Wounds you MIGHT receive. The Stratagem could be free and people would still forget it exists.

CC doesn't make sense in a game about shooting lasers with mile long ranges. Just get rid of CC entirely from the game.

I mean that's my inescapable logical conclusion as well.

So everyone just lines up on opposite sides of the board and rolls dice until everybody's dead? Sounds fun.

I guess we should get rid of every faction except numarines, tau, and guard while we're at it.

 Togusa wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
GW once again proved they don't understand problems with melee again with the release if this Stratagem. Nobody is going to think twice about falling back because of this Stratagem existing, simply because opening up that unit to be shot is always worth the 1-2 Mortal Wounds you MIGHT receive. The Stratagem could be free and people would still forget it exists.

CC doesn't make sense in a game about shooting lasers with mile long ranges. Just get rid of CC entirely from the game.

The mile long laser doesn't work when there are rocks and buildings in the way, thus CC. You can easily make a table that favors CC units over shooting. Most tables I see tend not to, but that doesn't mean you should remove the option.

Yep, they are portraying the game as knights and Aliens in space. Yet thier rules writers are hellbent on keeping it as a shooter. I'd have more respect for gw if they stopped all pretending with "get stuck in" crap.

 Brutallica wrote:
Yep, they are portraying the game as knights and Aliens in space. Yet thier rules writers are hellbent on keeping it as a shooter. I'd have more respect for gw if they stopped all pretending with "get stuck in" crap.

Or, crazy idea-make melee work.

Martel732 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
GW once again proved they don't understand problems with melee again with the release if this Stratagem. Nobody is going to think twice about falling back because of this Stratagem existing, simply because opening up that unit to be shot is always worth the 1-2 Mortal Wounds you MIGHT receive. The Stratagem could be free and people would still forget it exists.

CC doesn't make sense in a game about shooting lasers with mile long ranges. Just get rid of CC entirely from the game.

I mean that's my inescapable logical conclusion as well.

Obviously I am a bit joking here. But, yeah in a way I sometimes wonder if the game wouldn't be better off with this part of it totally cut.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
GW once again proved they don't understand problems with melee again with the release if this Stratagem. Nobody is going to think twice about falling back because of this Stratagem existing, simply because opening up that unit to be shot is always worth the 1-2 Mortal Wounds you MIGHT receive. The Stratagem could be free and people would still forget it exists.

CC doesn't make sense in a game about shooting lasers with mile long ranges. Just get rid of CC entirely from the game.

The mile long laser doesn't work when there are rocks and buildings in the way, thus CC. You can easily make a table that favors CC units over shooting. Most tables I see tend not to, but that doesn't mean you should remove the option.

Not at all battles are fought in such places. Also, terrain should slow movement. Sometimes, greatly.

Also, knights in space works as a satire. Not played straight.

 Insectum7 wrote:
The mile long laser doesn't work when there are rocks and buildings in the way, thus CC. You can easily make a table that favors CC units over shooting. Most tables I see tend not to, but that doesn't mean you should remove the option.

Do you know what CC looks like on the modern battlefield? It looks like well-drilled soldiers putting rounds towards their target with a rifle. Bayonet drills are being phased out of most military training and hand-to-hand combat involves putting a person into a position where you or an ally can put a bullet into them.

A guardsman with a pointy bit of metal is way less of a threat than the high energy laser coming out of the end of his lasgun.

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
GW once again proved they don't understand problems with melee again with the release if this Stratagem. Nobody is going to think twice about falling back because of this Stratagem existing, simply because opening up that unit to be shot is always worth the 1-2 Mortal Wounds you MIGHT receive. The Stratagem could be free and people would still forget it exists.

CC doesn't make sense in a game about shooting lasers with mile long ranges. Just get rid of CC entirely from the game.

The mile long laser doesn't work when there are rocks and buildings in the way, thus CC. You can easily make a table that favors CC units over shooting. Most tables I see tend not to, but that doesn't mean you should remove the option.

Not at all battles are fought in such places. Also, terrain should slow movement. Sometimes, greatly.

Ah, but not all games are fought not-in-such-places either. Therefore, CC stays. If you want gritty city combat and dense terrain scenarios, CC becomes highly applicable.


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 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
The mile long laser doesn't work when there are rocks and buildings in the way, thus CC. You can easily make a table that favors CC units over shooting. Most tables I see tend not to, but that doesn't mean you should remove the option.

Do you know what CC looks like on the modern battlefield? It looks like well-drilled soldiers putting rounds towards their target with a rifle. Bayonet drills are being phased out of most military training and hand-to-hand combat involves putting a person into a position where you or an ally can put a bullet into them.

A guardsman with a pointy bit of metal is way less of a threat than the high energy laser coming out of the end of his lasgun.

That's nice, but the setting 40K exists in isn't the modern battlefield.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Yep, they are portraying the game as knights and Aliens in space. Yet thier rules writers are hellbent on keeping it as a shooter. I'd have more respect for gw if they stopped all pretending with "get stuck in" crap.

Or, crazy idea-make melee work.

Its not at all crazy, its quite rational, and ive chanted it for years. SW and World Eater/Khorne Daemon player, and ever since 5th, ive only been moderately successfull in 5th with thunderwolves and 7th with thunderwolves, Wulfen and Arjac/Terminators (formation) as long as i wasent against space marines, eldar or tau. And briefly with berserkers early in 8th. Gw have allways pulled the same lines with "oooh we are gonna make it great for melee in this edition, get ready to get stuck in bla bla". It never really happens.

"That's nice, but the setting 40K exists in isn't the modern battlefield."

Yeah, its purported to be even more lethal.

 Insectum7 wrote:
That's nice, but the setting 40K exists in isn't the modern battlefield.

It has ranged firepower that can bring down everything from a billions strong wave of nids to a building-sized titan. Given that ranged weapons are shown to be highly effective in both fluff and the tabletop it makes melee seem like a terrible option which is also mostly true IRL.

Tell me, what can a guardsman with a knife do that a guardsman who used the same unit weight for an extra magazine for his gun can't? Why don't they simply call in the artillery, nukes, or thermobaric weapons to thin the horde and ensure that melees don't happen? Why is 40ks answer to massed units more massed units and not any of the answers that make human wave style attacks futile IRL?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
That's nice, but the setting 40K exists in isn't the modern battlefield.

It has ranged firepower that can bring down everything from a billions strong wave of nids to a building-sized titan. Given that ranged weapons are shown to be highly effective in both fluff and the tabletop it makes melee seem like a terrible option which is also mostly true IRL.

Tell me, what can a guardsman with a knife do that a guardsman who used the same unit weight for an extra magazine for his gun can't? Why don't they simply call in the artillery, nukes, or thermobaric weapons to thin the horde and ensure that melees don't happen? Why is 40ks answer to massed units more massed units and not any of the answers that make human wave style attacks futile IRL?

Oh, you're one of those IG players....

Have you not noticed 40k is fantasy in space? Things that apply in modern day have zero bearing in 40k.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Oh, you're one of those IG players....

Have you not noticed 40k is fantasy in space? Things that apply in modern day have zero bearing in 40k.

When did DA and Chaos become IG...?

Look at the fluff ranged weapons are effective and most of the things they aren't effective on usually just require a larger gun to put down. Thus logically ranged should always be a significantly better option than melee and the last edition fit with this logic. Melee should be specialized and situational and melee units should either have tools to set up for where they can be effective or serve another role on the table that isn't just killing things.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Oh, you're one of those IG players....

Have you not noticed 40k is fantasy in space? Things that apply in modern day have zero bearing in 40k.

When did DA and Chaos become IG...?

Sorry, it's just literally everyone I have every seen who holds your view is a wannabe military type who almost exclusively plays IG.

40k is fantasy in space, it has knights in space. HTH is a thing and will always be in 40k, as that is what sets it apart from the pack.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
That's nice, but the setting 40K exists in isn't the modern battlefield.

It has ranged firepower that can bring down everything from a billions strong wave of nids to a building-sized titan. Given that ranged weapons are shown to be highly effective in both fluff and the tabletop it makes melee seem like a terrible option which is also mostly true IRL.

Tell me, what can a guardsman with a knife do that a guardsman who used the same unit weight for an extra magazine for his gun can't? Why don't they simply call in the artillery, nukes, or thermobaric weapons to thin the horde and ensure that melees don't happen? Why is 40ks answer to massed units more massed units and not any of the answers that make human wave style attacks futile IRL?

A: May units don't have guns. Genestealers and Daemons, for example.
B: Nuking/artillery-ing/etc. the units without guns doesn't always work, as you might be trying to save materiel, magic macguffin, the city, whatever. Or you just ran out of shells.
C: 40K leaves you free to "answer" gun-less armies any way that you like. You don't have to use CC yourself. If you want to build your artillery line and wall-o-guardsmen firing four times a turn you're welcome to it.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
That's nice, but the setting 40K exists in isn't the modern battlefield.

It has ranged firepower that can bring down everything from a billions strong wave of nids to a building-sized titan. Given that ranged weapons are shown to be highly effective in both fluff and the tabletop it makes melee seem like a terrible option which is also mostly true IRL.

Tell me, what can a guardsman with a knife do that a guardsman who used the same unit weight for an extra magazine for his gun can't? Why don't they simply call in the artillery, nukes, or thermobaric weapons to thin the horde and ensure that melees don't happen? Why is 40ks answer to massed units more massed units and not any of the answers that make human wave style attacks futile IRL?

Oh, you're one of those IG players....

Have you not noticed 40k is fantasy in space? Things that apply in modern day have zero bearing in 40k.

That's blatantly false. In order for the genre to have any meaning at all, some elements must be relatable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Oh, you're one of those IG players....

Have you not noticed 40k is fantasy in space? Things that apply in modern day have zero bearing in 40k.

When did DA and Chaos become IG...?

Sorry, it's just literally everyone I have every seen who holds your view is a wannabe military type who almost exclusively plays IG.

40k is fantasy in space, it has knights in space. HTH is a thing and will always be in 40k, as that is what sets it apart from the pack.

Except the knights used to be satire. Big difference. And knights ended up shot in the face by crossbows and out maneuvered by the Horde.

 Insectum7 wrote:
A: May units don't have guns. Genestealers and Daemons, for example.

So give them other rules that work with their theme:

Daemons might have an aura related to their gods that messes with the opponent's units so when they actually reach combat the melee is just a formality.

For example: A group of Bloodletters might have a 18" aura that causes enemy misses to hit the firing unit and then give a -1 to hit when they're within 9".

Genestealers might gain bonus VP for using their infiltration rules to take and hold an objective.

B: Nuking/artillery-ing/etc. the units without guns doesn't always work, as you might be trying to save materiel, magic macguffin, the city, whatever. Or you just ran out of shells.

If that's the case are you suggesting we have a rule where ranged units can run out of ammo like what GWs skirmish games use?

C: 40K leaves you free to "answer" gun-less armies any way that you like. You don't have to use CC yourself. If you want to build your artillery line and wall-o-guardsmen firing four times a turn you're welcome to it.

Does it also leave me free to deal with the posters who think these gunless armies should be good based purely on killing models within an inch as opposed to killing models more than an inch away?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Think of it this way, is it melee that makes Daemons and Tyranids scary in the fluff, or is it all the other stuff they do combined with the fact that if they ever reach you they can also tear you many new holes?

When you're facing Daemons nothing should ever be as it seems as their very presence warps reality. Your goal should be to survive until their connection to the warp forces them back. Perhaps when playing Daemons there should be an extra victory point added for both sides involving destroying an object or cultist(s) that are linking them to the world.

When fighting Tyranids the air should be choked with toxic spores such that the sky is dark and the light filtering in is suited for that hive fleets eyes alone. Each breath should make your lungs burn and exposed skin should painfully blister. The billions strong horde of flesh coming to eat you is just the icing on the cake.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
A: May units don't have guns. Genestealers and Daemons, for example.

So give them other rules that work with their theme:

Daemons might have an aura related to their gods that messes with the opponent's units so when they actually reach combat the melee is just a formality.

For example: A group of Bloodletters might have a 18" aura that causes enemy misses to hit the firing unit and then give a -1 to hit when they're within 9".

Genestealers might gain bonus VP for using their infiltration rules to take and hold an objective.

Conversely, why do any of that when we already have rules for close combat?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

B: Nuking/artillery-ing/etc. the units without guns doesn't always work, as you might be trying to save materiel, magic macguffin, the city, whatever. Or you just ran out of shells.

If that's the case are you suggesting we have a rule where ranged units can run out of ammo like what GWs skirmish games use?

No, I'm suggesting that the reason the game takes place the way it does in the first place is because the solutions you suggest aren't available for some legitimate in-universe reason.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

C: 40K leaves you free to "answer" gun-less armies any way that you like. You don't have to use CC yourself. If you want to build your artillery line and wall-o-guardsmen firing four times a turn you're welcome to it.

Does it also leave me free to deal with the posters who think these gunless armies should be good based purely on killing models within an inch as opposed to killing models more than an inch away?

You can deal with them any way that you see fit. But saying that CC should have no place in the game, or suggesting that 40K operates the same way that modern warfare does doesn't really have merit.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Conversely, why do any of that when we already have rules for close combat?

Weren't you the one who was just arguing about the fluff being fantasy in space? Should we try to make the gameplay on the table more akin to the fluff with cool unique rules for units that are otherwise just boring beat sticks that roll dice if they get within an inch of you and otherwise do very little?

No, I'm suggesting that the reason the game takes place the way it does in the first place is because the solutions you suggest aren't available for some legitimate in-universe reason.

So every battle that a melee only army engages in has some contrived way to force melee because otherwise it wouldn't make sense...

You can deal with them any way that you see fit. But saying that CC should have no place in the game, or suggesting that 40K operates the same way that modern warfare does doesn't really have merit.

The fluff shows exactly how effective my proposed solutions are and rarely delves into why they aren't used more often. I'm just saying that the gameplay should match the logic inherent in the fluff.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
When fighting Tyranids the air should be choked with toxic spores such that the sky is dark and the light filtering in is suited for that hive fleets eyes alone. Each breath should make your lungs burn and exposed skin should painfully blister. The billions strong horde of flesh coming to eat you is just the icing on the cake.

2nd Ed used to have rules to support that. Models would arrive late to the field because they're coming from other engagements. Units could be low on ammunition or morale because they've been fighting for weeks. Units could be sick with viral infections. Models could explode from some unknown organism having wormed their way into their body beforehand. It was good s***.

Likewise morale was more of a thing, and all Daemons caused Fear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Conversely, why do any of that when we already have rules for close combat?

Weren't you the one who was just arguing about the fluff being fantasy in space? Should we try to make the gameplay on the table more akin to the fluff with cool unique rules for units that are otherwise just boring beat sticks that roll dice if they get within an inch of you and otherwise do very little?

I'm here because somebody said CC shouldn't exist in 40K, and I think it should, regardless of the fact that it rarely happens in the modern day setting.

How that manifests itself is up for discussion, sure. But in-universe, it happens, and it should be supported by the game. I don't claim that it needs to be equal in strength to shooting on the "standard tournament table" or whatever. But diversity in armies overall is a good thing.

 Insectum7 wrote:
2nd Ed used to have rules to support that. Models would arrive late to the field because they're coming from other engagements. Units could be low on ammunition or morale because they've been fighting for weeks. Units could be sick with viral infections. Models could explode from some unknown organism having wormed their way into their body beforehand. It was good s***.

Likewise morale was more of a thing, and all Daemons caused Fear.

Then we should go back to something close to 2e and given melee a reason to make sense and rules that allow melee only units to impact the game in ways that aren't just see model, move towards the model, roll dice. Shooting units should get the same interesting rules that make them cool for reasons other than 'durr hurr, gun fire burrets, enemiez ded'.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
2nd Ed used to have rules to support that. Models would arrive late to the field because they're coming from other engagements. Units could be low on ammunition or morale because they've been fighting for weeks. Units could be sick with viral infections. Models could explode from some unknown organism having wormed their way into their body beforehand. It was good s***.

Likewise morale was more of a thing, and all Daemons caused Fear.

Then we should go back to something close to 2e and given melee a reason to make sense and rules that allow melee only units to impact the game in ways that aren't just see model, move towards the model, roll dice. Shooting units should get the same interesting rules that make them cool for reasons other than 'durr hurr, gun fire burrets, enemiez ded'.

Melee already can organically make sense in the game, terrain and objectives already being an important part of that equation. Like I said, you can make a board that favors mellee over shooting rather heavily.

As much as I like the 2nd Ed. Tyranid rules, I think a lot of people found them overbearing, and they're maybe not great from a competitive setting. But narrative? Sure, knock yourself out. But in general I like asymmetric design. The old waves of recycling units was pretty cool.

Arguing that melee shouldn't be part of 40K because of realism is absolutely ludicrous.

It's fun to apply the lens of realism and figure out where our fictional worlds don't live up to the real world. It's ridiculous to insist that those overtly unrealistic worlds throw out core stylization in the interest of realism.

Next up, here's my treatise on why square-cube law prevents trolls or Ogors from having a functional vascular system, so I expect them to be removed from Age of Sigmar immediately. I'll double feature it with an essay on why dogfights in the far-future make no sense, and demand the next iteration of Aeronautica Imperialis be a drones-and-guided-missiles sim.

Melee in a sci-fi context is pure brainless Rule of Cool that makes no logical sense, but that's what 40K is, and the tabletop rules have to support it.

 catbarf wrote:
Arguing that melee shouldn't be part of 40K because of realism is absolutely ludicrous.

It's fun to apply the lens of realism and figure out where our fictional worlds don't live up to the real world. It's ridiculous to insist that those overtly unrealistic worlds throw out core stylization in the interest of realism.

Next up, here's my treatise on why square-cube law prevents trolls or Ogors from having a functional vascular system, so I expect them to be removed from Age of Sigmar immediately. I'll double feature it with an essay on why dogfights in the far-future make no sense, and demand the next iteration of Aeronautica Imperialis be a drones-and-guided-missiles sim.

Melee in a sci-fi context is pure brainless Rule of Cool that makes no logical sense, but that's what 40K is, and the tabletop rules have to support it.

"bUt An AbRhAmS iS SuPeRiOr To A lEmAn RuSs!!!!"

Yes, that's the point. One day people will understand that these "backwards" and regressive things within 40k are a feature and not a bug.

By the way, melee is portraied to be much more lethal than ranged weapons in this setting.

You see bolter fire boucing off power armor every time, but chainswords? Those things always draw blood.

At very large scale nothing stops ranged weapons, but in the infantry fights the melee weapons are represented as being extremely effective.

Even at vehicle scale, a Trygon talon slices a leman russ cleanly in half, something that a lot of ranged weapons fail to do.

Now, you can tell me that on the tabletop this difference in power between ranged and melee is not represented, to which i could agree.

Apologies if someone had the same idea already, 11 pages is more than I had time to read. Having played close combat elite armies (wolves, chaos, and custodes mainly) the major issue is not getting to combat. I have found plenty of builds that may not be top tournament tier but can still close the distance and get me into combat range. The issue is that after all the effort to get across the board, the enemy walks away without penalty and it's as if I hadn't made it at all.

I think something along the lines of -1 BS if shooting at a unit that started that turn in close combat may be enough to make a difference without being too crazy. Given that they have already stated the modifiers will be capped at +/-1 I think it would be a good step. It would also allow shooting armies to still be that and use CP to counter it with a strat for +1 BS. Nothing too weak, nothing that seems too strong in my opinion.

I'm no pro player, but that feels like it would solve the issue without being crazy.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Melee already can organically make sense in the game, terrain and objectives already being an important part of that equation. Like I said, you can make a board that favors mellee over shooting rather heavily.

The issue is melee is very much forced in 40k. Marines should be using bolters in close combat over a sword that will get clogged the moment it touches anything. Almost anybody that isn't carrying a power weapon or other form of melee weapon where dealing damage isn't solely based on the user's strength will always hit less than the ranged weapon they're already carrying.

This is dictated by basic laws of physics which should be assumed to hold true in 40k for the sake of realism.

As much as I like the 2nd Ed. Tyranid rules, I think a lot of people found them overbearing, and they're maybe not great from a competitive setting. But narrative? Sure, knock yourself out. But in general I like asymmetric design. The old waves of recycling units was pretty cool.

It doesn't have to be so asymmetric as to cause problems in competitive play, just enough that factions feel properly unique.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 catbarf wrote:
Next up, here's my treatise on why square-cube law prevents trolls or Ogors from having a functional vascular system, so I expect them to be removed from Age of Sigmar immediately. I'll double feature it with an essay on why dogfights in the far-future make no sense, and demand the next iteration of Aeronautica Imperialis be a drones-and-guided-missiles sim.

Space combat in almost every game is nonsense. Craft have fixed top speeds but unlimited fuel, sensors are magic and have no realistic counters, don't even get me started on needing to get lined up perfectly behind an enemy within visual range to send a missile.

It should be much more of a Cold Waters type situation but with more fuel and heat management.

40k and realism don't live in the same universe.

And when you hit someone so hard their spine turns to powder, why waste the ammo? That's just a waste of limited resources. Besides, even if the chainsword clogs it's a heavy, and spiked, metal stick.