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Now that dreadnoughts (and others) can pump their flamers into melee are there any other vehicle / monster loadouts you think might be useful with this rule?

I think Leman Russ Punishers with 3x heavy flamer might be pretty mean this way. The loadout is pretty nice to remove hordelike infantry and was only "held back" by the short range leading to the risk of being touched and "deactivated". Now you can drive right into chaff-hordes/don't have to fear being within 8'' of relatively weak T3 blobs like guardsmen etc.

Land Raider Crusader is an instant win in my book with the change.

Redemptor Dreadnoughts with double Onslaught Gatling Cannons got a buff too.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
I think Leman Russ Punishers with 3x heavy flamer might be pretty mean this way. The loadout is pretty nice to remove hordelike infantry and was only "held back" by the short range leading to the risk of being touched and "deactivated". Now you can drive right into chaff-hordes/don't have to fear being within 8'' of relatively weak T3 blobs like guardsmen etc.

I was already using Vindicators as a sort of blocker since it was tough for the points, but didn't shoot super well. Now that it can shoot and likely benefits from blast...doot doot! Maybe even a combi-flamer...hmm...

I am begining to heavily wonder what the point of light infantry is going to be in this edtiion.

1) you are no longer required to take them to get CP

2) If fighting in the fight phase is worded like Cut Them Down is (i.e., only models within 1" get to fight) then any unit larger than ~10 models is going to be pretty irrelevant in melee

3) You can no longer use light infantry to tie up vehicles effectively, and they're no longer needed for bubblewrap

4) the only points preview we have so far shows a light infantry unit getting a much bigger price hike than an elite unit

So.....what are they good for, lol? Why would I ever use a blob of ork boyz in this new edition - just because I like the idea of getting smashed to bits with blast weapons even faster than I do right now? Maybe because I'm super pumped about the ability for 1/4 of my mob to get to fight if I ever did get it into melee?

What is it with every edition of 40k putting more and more and more restrictions on melee while making shooting easier and easier?

The biggest change here is that only infantry suffers -1 to hit for moving and firing with heavy weapons. Was revealed in the live.

Hellhounds like this a lot.

What I love is attacking units on the first floor of ruins (Many ruins only have one). If that applies also to normal bikers it could actually make non-flyng bikers usable! No more "My character is on a box, you can't attack me!" nonsense.

If the hellforged units can still regain wounds by killing things in cc they will be nasty once they get stuck in.

Gotta go sharpen my contemptor's chainclaws.

the_scotsman wrote:
I am begining to heavily wonder what the point of light infantry is going to be in this edtiion.

1) you are no longer required to take them to get CP

2) If fighting in the fight phase is worded like Cut Them Down is (i.e., only models within 1" get to fight) then any unit larger than ~10 models is going to be pretty irrelevant in melee

3) You can no longer use light infantry to tie up vehicles effectively, and they're no longer needed for bubblewrap

4) the only points preview we have so far shows a light infantry unit getting a much bigger price hike than an elite unit

So.....what are they good for, lol? Why would I ever use a blob of ork boyz in this new edition - just because I like the idea of getting smashed to bits with blast weapons even faster than I do right now? Maybe because I'm super pumped about the ability for 1/4 of my mob to get to fight if I ever did get it into melee?

What is it with every edition of 40k putting more and more and more restrictions on melee while making shooting easier and easier?

Hopefully the terrain rules will really help here. If infantry get a great cover bonus while tanks don't, that'll help quite a bit.

When I first heard my Drones might be losing fallback and flame I was a bit worried about their continued use but no more. I will need to see the upcoming PA and point changes to determine if my DG will be decent, but these rules alone just improved my regular tactic of ramming Mortars and Drones into enemy lines by a lot. The mortars used to be a very solid roadblock but their damage once doing so was low, now that they can continue to happily flame away? Oh boy am I excited.

 Insectum7 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I am begining to heavily wonder what the point of light infantry is going to be in this edtiion.

1) you are no longer required to take them to get CP

2) If fighting in the fight phase is worded like Cut Them Down is (i.e., only models within 1" get to fight) then any unit larger than ~10 models is going to be pretty irrelevant in melee

3) You can no longer use light infantry to tie up vehicles effectively, and they're no longer needed for bubblewrap

4) the only points preview we have so far shows a light infantry unit getting a much bigger price hike than an elite unit

So.....what are they good for, lol? Why would I ever use a blob of ork boyz in this new edition - just because I like the idea of getting smashed to bits with blast weapons even faster than I do right now? Maybe because I'm super pumped about the ability for 1/4 of my mob to get to fight if I ever did get it into melee?

What is it with every edition of 40k putting more and more and more restrictions on melee while making shooting easier and easier?

Hopefully the terrain rules will really help here. If infantry get a great cover bonus while tanks don't, that'll help quite a bit.

From the stream today they made it sound like gaining cover with vehicles would be much easier than before, that they can't go into or through terrain but they will have more ways to "interact with" terrain.

It will be pretty cool for Scout Sentinels, they can charge with impunity on the flanks.

This is a case where the obvious implication is one thing, but how it will be used is a little different. The obvious implication is to make the bad touch less effective, we've all done it in 9th, use a pile in move to bring a vehicle into the combat so it can't shoot the next round. Now it will be able to shot the next round, but only at the unit that bad touched it. Now you deploy your vehicles in supporting positions so they are hard to not bring into combat, if they get charged they can start blasting. Seems like a small change, but the real use will be to use this offensively.

One of the pillars of CC is being able to hide from enemy fire in CC, so shooting armies have a hard time eliminating CC units once they reach their lines. Now tough vehicles and monsters have the option of charging in, taking some CC hits, and then delivering some shots back. Like Tau with a stupid lot of shield drones and "Monsters" can even jump into CC, creating a double jeopardy situation, get hammered in over watch on the way in, get hammered in CC by ranged focused monsters protected by shield drones.

It's also a flat buff to monsters and units like dreadnoughts that can do both. Like my telemon now has a reason to get into CC, same with Leviathan dreads.

Edit: whoops, nevermind i missed the part where you can do this. this is irrelevant:
They haven't answered this, but I think it will end up pretty important to that idea of charging the vehicles in: Will they still be able to shoot in melee if the unit they're shooting is also in melee with another friendly unit?

For example, the riptide/drones combo you're talking about. If a unit of cultists or whatever are touching both the drones and the riptide does the "can't shoot into melee with friendlies" rule still apply to the riptide?


Regardless, I don't think this matters much for units like the riptide - it flies, it'll probably want to get out of melee anyway unless it's a big blob of weak models that aren't going to do much in combat but might put out a decent number of mortals on the fallback strategem. It's really great for a ton of imperium tanks, though, bristling with flamer/bolter sponsons and whatnot.

I think they already said you can fire into enemy units that are within your engagement range even if the same unit is in combat with another unit of yours.

I think these rules are looking pretty good.

I can see some thinking that this is bad for melee and that vehicles are getting a huge boost. Really, when it came to melee vs non-flyer tanks, the "bad touch" was just plain broken and made zero sense whatsoever. It's pretty plain to see how that has affected vehicle (and monster) usage in 8th.

We've still not seen detailed terrain rules, and I have a feeling that those will be the secret sauce that will make melee great.

Read the article, it clearly says that you can shoot at whatever is in engament range even if that unit is withing engagement range of another friendly unit.

By the way, i'm 99% sure at this point that vehicles can no longer overwatch.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I am begining to heavily wonder what the point of light infantry is going to be in this edtiion.

1) you are no longer required to take them to get CP

2) If fighting in the fight phase is worded like Cut Them Down is (i.e., only models within 1" get to fight) then any unit larger than ~10 models is going to be pretty irrelevant in melee

3) You can no longer use light infantry to tie up vehicles effectively, and they're no longer needed for bubblewrap

4) the only points preview we have so far shows a light infantry unit getting a much bigger price hike than an elite unit

So.....what are they good for, lol? Why would I ever use a blob of ork boyz in this new edition - just because I like the idea of getting smashed to bits with blast weapons even faster than I do right now? Maybe because I'm super pumped about the ability for 1/4 of my mob to get to fight if I ever did get it into melee?

What is it with every edition of 40k putting more and more and more restrictions on melee while making shooting easier and easier?

Hopefully the terrain rules will really help here. If infantry get a great cover bonus while tanks don't, that'll help quite a bit.

From the stream today they made it sound like gaining cover with vehicles would be much easier than before, that they can't go into or through terrain but they will have more ways to "interact with" terrain.

Well, we'll see then. Being blocked by terrain can be a pretty hefty disadvantage too. I have a distinct memory of bringing a vehicle heavy list to a PUG, and the table we got was dense enough that I had a really hard time getting my models around.

Spoletta wrote:
The biggest change here is that only infantry suffers -1 to hit for moving and firing with heavy weapons. Was revealed in the live.

Yea...tanks are great now. To scotsman's point - the point values could go way up.

This seems very powerful.

I really hope this comes with an appropriate point cost increase because this fixes most of the issues people had with vehicles.

 Kroem wrote:
It will be pretty cool for Scout Sentinels, they can charge with impunity on the flanks.

This. Despite INFANTRY concerns I'm pretty stoked to see more builds open up. I'm pretty confident you'll see a purpose for all units.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
Read the article, it clearly says that you can shoot at whatever is in engament range even if that unit is withing engagement range of another friendly unit.

By the way, i'm 99% sure at this point that vehicles can no longer overwatch.

Yea there was a rumor floating around for that - it makes more sense in this context.

Spoletta wrote:
Read the article, it clearly says that you can shoot at whatever is in engament range even if that unit is withing engagement range of another friendly unit.

By the way, i'm 99% sure at this point that vehicles can no longer overwatch.

That's a lot of surety, any particular reason? Because we still have over watch affecting rules in supplements designed with 9th ed in mind, and it would be a real odd move to take it away from vehicles and not monsters since they both get access to big guns never tire.

While I like the rules changes for vehicles (being a natural treadhead and always thinking the idea of CC locking tank shooting was silly thematically), I'm curious what they're going to be doing to offset the impact for infantry and assaults, because there's a lot of units which, if other things remain unchanged from 8th, are going to basically going to have no point on a table in 9th.

 Vaktathi wrote:
While I like the rules changes for vehicles (being a natural treadhead and always thinking the idea of CC locking tank shooting was silly thematically), I'm curious what they're going to be doing to offset the impact for infantry and assaults, because there's a lot of units which, if other things remain unchanged from 8th, are going to basically going to have no point on a table in 9th.

Maybe power fists return to being the tank crackers of yore?

 Vaktathi wrote:
While I like the rules changes for vehicles (being a natural treadhead and always thinking the idea of CC locking tank shooting was silly thematically), I'm curious what they're going to be doing to offset the impact for infantry and assaults, because there's a lot of units which, if other things remain unchanged from 8th, are going to basically going to have no point on a table in 9th.

I'm terrified for my light infantry as an Ork.

Unless cover rules are kind, or they largely escape points increases, it seems like I'll need to move to a largely Mega Nob / mechanized force. Which is fine, because that style of Ork playing is fun, but boys are not looking so good beyond the usual tellyporta -> deep strike.. and even then, they can't really tag vehicles anymore.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
While I like the rules changes for vehicles (being a natural treadhead and always thinking the idea of CC locking tank shooting was silly thematically), I'm curious what they're going to be doing to offset the impact for infantry and assaults, because there's a lot of units which, if other things remain unchanged from 8th, are going to basically going to have no point on a table in 9th.

Maybe power fists return to being the tank crackers of yore?

Screw Powerfists, I want Chainfists to be the premiere anti-tank CC weapons again. It's a shame that Thunder Hammers outshine them right now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
While I like the rules changes for vehicles (being a natural treadhead and always thinking the idea of CC locking tank shooting was silly thematically), I'm curious what they're going to be doing to offset the impact for infantry and assaults, because there's a lot of units which, if other things remain unchanged from 8th, are going to basically going to have no point on a table in 9th.

Maybe power fists return to being the tank crackers of yore?

Or maybe krak grenades and melta bombs will be useable against vehicles in cc again.

If so, csm wants our melta bombs back!

Edit:
What Insectum said. Make chainfists awesome again. They look so nice with the proper application of Blood For the Blood God.

A GM ndk being able to shot with his hvy weapons in melee sounds real nice. That is for sure.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
While I like the rules changes for vehicles (being a natural treadhead and always thinking the idea of CC locking tank shooting was silly thematically), I'm curious what they're going to be doing to offset the impact for infantry and assaults, because there's a lot of units which, if other things remain unchanged from 8th, are going to basically going to have no point on a table in 9th.

Maybe power fists return to being the tank crackers of yore?

Screw Powerfists, I want Chainfists to be the premiere anti-tank CC weapons again. It's a shame that Thunder Hammers outshine them right now.

You can also thank GW handing out Invuls to everyone so that the points you pay for the AP-4 are wasted and you're almost just paying over the Power Fist for the consistent D2.