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Can anyone explain the new Obscuring trait to me?

I've read it half a dozen times and the triple negatives are giving me a headache.

What does it actually do? Who can shoot who when an Obscuring terrain piece is involved?

I too am having a huge amount of trouble understanding this.

What it SEEMS to be saying:

If you're standing IN a cathedral, forest, etc you can be blown up just fine. Anybody can target you, and all you get is +1 to your cover save.

If you are on the FAR SIDE of a cathedral (and less than 18W, not a flyer, etc), forest, etc nobody can shoot you at you from the other side of the cathedral, as long they can't draw a line from themselves to you without passing through the cathedral.

Needless to say, this is going to lead to a ton of arguments about whether you are in a terrain piece or on the far side of it, especially with ruins that are not perfectly shaped squares. Does an L-shaped ruin now have a footprint, such that you are "inside" it rather than "on the far side" of it? Or is it just a wall with a bend on it? That ruined cathedral - is it a rectangle, even though it's missing a back wall? Where's the end point between being "inside" it and "on the other side of it?"

It's worth pointing out that this caveat about being "inside" not blocking LOS is a massive decrease in the LOS-blocking offered by ruins as compared to the standard competitive format in 40k right now.

So:

Inside a forest? Haha, does nothing but +1 save. Sucker. But 1mm on the far side of a forest? Invisibility cloak!

If you have something obscuring (if it's at least 5" in height), then a model behind that can't be seen behind it unless it's an aircraft or something with a Wounds characteristic of 18 or more (presumably those models are giving off a bright halo that alerts anything on the board that here's a bad mofo that you can target even if you normally shouldn't have been able to if if started with lower wounds). Of course, with the at least 5" in height provision, anything that would normally have been able to be seen over the terrain most likely has 18 wounds to start with. The 18+ wound model doesn't necessarily get to automatically see what's firing at it though, unless whatever's shooting it also fits into the listed exceptions.

Models inside the terrain can be targeted normally, though the terrain probably has a few other keywords that will affect that (most likely something like light cover). So, if you have some woods or ruins that's obscuring, you can't be targeted (unless you match the noted exceptions) if you're behind those woods or ruins, but you can be targeted if you're inside the woods or ruins. If you have an obscuring building, same applies, though if you have an 18+ wound model behind the building, apparently the aura the model generates is bright enough to penetrate through the building (guess they don't make ferrocrete like they used to) and it can still be shot at though the building.

I don't understand what isn't clear, it seems well spelled out to me. Can you give some scenarios?

Short form:
***

A terrain piece 5" tall or taller blocks line of sight (LOS) THROUGH it, but models INSIDE of it can still see, and be seen, as usual.

LOS to, or from, an AIRCRAFT model cannot be blocked.

LOS to models with a Wounds characteristic of 18 or higher cannot be blocked. LOS FROM a model with a wounds characteristic of 18 or more CAN be blocked.

***
Does that help sir?

What’s confusing me is the bit about drawing a line of sight that doesn’t pass through the terrain.

Example 1:

An 18+wound model is 7” tall, it is positioned behind a wall 5” tall with the Obscuring keyword. 20” inches away (on the other side of the wall) is an infantry unit. I can draw an uninterrupted LOS between the 18w model and the infantry unit and it doesn’t pass through the Obscuring wall, because the line is higher than the highest point of the wall (7” > 5”).

Can the 18w model shoot the infantry unit?

Example 2:

An 18+wound model is 7” tall, it is positioned behind a wall 9” tall with the Obscuring keyword. 20” inches away (on the other side of the wall) is an infantry unit. I cannot draw an uninterrupted LOS between the 18w model and the infantry unit because it passes through the Obscuring wall, there is no LOS at all.

Can the infantry unit shoot the 18w model?

Aash wrote:
What’s confusing me is the bit about drawing a line of sight that doesn’t pass through the terrain.

Example 1:

An 18+wound model is 7” tall, it is positioned behind a wall 5” tall with the Obscuring keyword. 20” inches away (on the other side of the wall) is an infantry unit. I can draw an uninterrupted LOS between the 18w model and the infantry unit and it doesn’t pass through the Obscuring wall, because the line is higher than the highest point of the wall (7” > 5”).

Can the 18w model shoot the infantry unit?

Example 2:

An 18+wound model is 7” tall, it is positioned behind a wall 9” tall with the Obscuring keyword. 20” inches away (on the other side of the wall) is an infantry unit. I cannot draw an uninterrupted LOS between the 18w model and the infantry unit because it passes through the Obscuring wall, there is no LOS at all.

Can the infantry unit shoot the 18w model?

1) No idea, we don't know if LOS is drawn in a 3D plane or on a 2D plane.
2) No, because you don't have LOS.

Again we don't have the full rules, the game might not even use TLOS anymore.

Aash wrote:
What’s confusing me is the bit about drawing a line of sight that doesn’t pass through the terrain.

Example 1:
An 18+wound model is 7” tall, it is positioned behind a wall 5” tall with the Obscuring keyword. 20” inches away (on the other side of the wall) is an infantry unit. I can draw an uninterrupted LOS between the 18w model and the infantry unit and it doesn’t pass through the Obscuring wall, because the line is higher than the highest point of the wall (7” > 5”). Can the 18w model shoot the infantry unit?

Example 2:
An 18+wound model is 7” tall, it is positioned behind a wall 9” tall with the Obscuring keyword. 20” inches away (on the other side of the wall) is an infantry unit. I cannot draw an uninterrupted LOS between the 18w model and the infantry unit because it passes through the Obscuring wall, there is no LOS at all. Can the infantry unit shoot the 18w model?

Example 1: No, visibility line can't pass "through or over" any part of the terrain feature.

Example 2: As BCB said, we don't have the rules for determining visibility yet. I'm hoping terrain doesn't simply vanish because I have 18+ wounds.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Aash wrote:
What’s confusing me is the bit about drawing a line of sight that doesn’t pass through the terrain.

Example 1:

An 18+wound model is 7” tall, it is positioned behind a wall 5” tall with the Obscuring keyword. 20” inches away (on the other side of the wall) is an infantry unit. I can draw an uninterrupted LOS between the 18w model and the infantry unit and it doesn’t pass through the Obscuring wall, because the line is higher than the highest point of the wall (7” > 5”).

Can the 18w model shoot the infantry unit?

Example 2:

An 18+wound model is 7” tall, it is positioned behind a wall 9” tall with the Obscuring keyword. 20” inches away (on the other side of the wall) is an infantry unit. I cannot draw an uninterrupted LOS between the 18w model and the infantry unit because it passes through the Obscuring wall, there is no LOS at all.

Can the infantry unit shoot the 18w model?

1) No idea, we don't know if LOS is drawn in a 3D plane or on a 2D plane.
2) No, because you don't have LOS.

Again we don't have the full rules, the game might not even use TLOS anymore.

My initial interpretation is for my example 1 the 18w unit can’t shoot the infantry unit because the rule says if you draw LOS through or over any part of the intervening terrain.

For example 2 I think the infantry can shoot the 18w model because it ignores the fact that it blocks LOS (maybe an abstraction that it isn’t a solid wall but has holes/gaps/ windows etc).

But I’m definitely unsure.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Again we don't have the full rules, the game might not even use TLOS anymore.

I believe True Line of Sight was mentioned in today's Twitch stream in regards to Hills.

If this terrain feature is at least 5" in height, models cannot see through or over this terrain feature.

Models that are on or within this terrain feature can be seen and targeted normally

Models cannot see through this terrain feature, and models that are on or within this terrain feature can be seen ? WTF ??

 p5freak wrote:

If this terrain feature is at least 5" in height, models cannot see through or over this terrain feature.

Models that are on or within this terrain feature can be seen and targeted normally

Models cannot see through this terrain feature, and models that are on or within this terrain feature can be seen ? WTF ??

You can't see what's behind it, but you can see what's climbing all over it.

Fairly well covered now,

Example 1) If the LoS goes over Obscuring terrain (not just through) you cannot target the smaller, non-aircraft units.

Example 2) Aircraft and 18+ wound models are simply visible through obscuring terrain. Actual LoS seems to be ignored for the purposes of Obscuring terrain. Perhaps they could be hidden behind a rock or wall without that trait attached that did block LoS?

-------

So, LoS could possibly matter for units within obscuring terrain, but it is effectively ignored for units behind it. You just reference their location, model type (wound count/Aircraft/etc.), and the obscuring rule.

Can we leave 9th rules discussions until we have the rules?

We have no context or indication of what shape rules that interact with this take. It’s futile to discuss in YMDC right now.

Not really. There was confusion as to what was written, and it is being discussed.

lol GW copied another Privateer Press Warmahordes rule on this one XD ... I swear GW is slowly turning this game into their competitors games XD.

if your in it the area terrain you get cover bonus, if your a hair out then your LOS is blocked.

Invest in a laser line pointer. I use it for warmahordes and it stops tons of arguments.

https://4-games.se/produkt/wargaming-targetlock-laser-line/

 Lorek wrote:
Not really. There was confusion as to what was written, and it is being discussed.

Isn't YMDC the place to discuss rules we actually have? Right now all we have is a rules snippet with many relevant rules unknown.

TIts been a thing that my opponents would stick a thunderhammer captain or a blood angels superlibrarian of doom behind a wall inside the floor of ruins. viola, the middle of the board became a death zone and nothing on my side could LOS to fire at the officer in that spot (or the centurion infantry unit, or aggressors, whatever). The NOVA terrain is specifically always set up with two such LOS blocking ruins in the dead center of the board, about 8 inch apart.

If I went near that center, my knight died, my tank died, my infantry squad suddenly got meleed by something I couldn't target as it whipped in from no@#$goddamn where to kick my ass. The L type terrain used in NOVA has two walls .. but a solid foot of footprint behind that where the enemy infantry could hang out in safety. When he suddenly flipped on his wings of blood or flaem or whatever and leaped 30 inches or some crazy crap only marines get to do, I couldn't overwatch except with non-line of sight weapons. Often my opponents would stick 20 or 30 gaurd bodies just behidn the wall, saturating the threat of any basilisks a normal human might bring, so that the one allied in blood angels captain is now totally invulnerable .. but only 3 inches behind a wall, giving him a 21 inch threat range from the middle of the table (and THAT before he teleports, the prick). Warptime or its marine equivalent (I dunno, they are all just targets to a simple gaurdsman like me.)

But now? Anything that can draw a line to that superelite flying character will be able to shoot it, OR it has to be completely behind the foot thick footprint of the NOVA L shaped terrain. Those 30 gaurd soldiers with +1 save each model? Deader than dead, you can wipe that just with the bolter fire that hasn't got any other target in the round because the rest of his forces are like 5 feet away.
Those elite assassin stealth killer death eliminators you couldn't target? they are either behind the terrain (read "out of cover, -2 to their save!) or they are in the terrain and you can target them with direct fire weapons (while, I note, stripping their cover by having an astropath cough at them). This seems trivial, its only 1 piece of terrain but its a standard piece of terrain that is used in almost every tournament in the greater DC and northern virginia area, to include the huge NOVA tournament each year. This is going to shift the meta of the game a bit, because a lot of units like short ranged aggressors will suddenly have an extra turn of useless vulnerability before they can be brought to bear on armor that can target their terrain area from the far edge of the board. Specifically in NOVA this means that something like the 1/2 move strategems from basilisk, wyvern, thunderfire cannon, can potentially cripple an elite, heavy infantry or landraider style unit before it gets close enough to matter -- or the shooting phase directly, just blow it up with your big, big gunsn"

I don't know if this will be a huge impact on the game -- but it will force a rethink of my screens and screening techniques, and quite possibly make my current army (lots of flyers I can't hide now in cover) rather uncompeitive in competitive play.

 alextroy wrote:

 Lorek wrote:
Not really. There was confusion as to what was written, and it is being discussed.

Isn't YMDC the place to discuss rules we actually have? Right now all we have is a rules snippet with many relevant rules unknown.

Agreed. It’s pointless having this thread now. Dissecting previews before the rules are out for full context is futile.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 Lorek wrote:
Not really. There was confusion as to what was written, and it is being discussed.

Isn't YMDC the place to discuss rules we actually have? Right now all we have is a rules snippet with many relevant rules unknown.

Agreed. It’s pointless having this thread now. Dissecting previews before the rules are out for full context is futile.

I dont think it's pointless.

Discussing the wider implications of the rule would be pointless, but trying to get our heads around the wording of a rule that has been officially released in order to tell the community something about the new edition has some value.

My original question is not about whether we know for sure how certain hypotheticals will work out. Because you're right, we don't know yet. It's simply how do we parse logically this rule.

Fair enough if you disagree though.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I too am having a huge amount of trouble understanding this.
It's worth pointing out that this caveat about being "inside" not blocking LOS is a massive decrease in the LOS-blocking offered by ruins as compared to the standard competitive format in 40k right now.

I didn't read it that way, I read it as if you're inside the terrain then normal LOS rules apply, i.e. you still need true LOS even if a unit is within the terrain feature.

Either way it's not a big deal, we all just need to edit our terrain to suit, for example;
Slap a base on the bottom of a terrain piece, anything on the base is within the terrain anything not is outside the terrain.
If your large terrain feature with two 5" walls is on one base then the space between the walls isn't safe as anything sitting there is within the terrain. If the walls are on separate bases and are therefore separate terrain features then the space in between them is un-targetable.

I'm not sure what the confusion is here... A terrain feature "May" have the obscuring feature... just as it "May" have the scaleable or breachable etc... Just because it is tall doesn't mean that it will have the Obscuring rule

Ruins do have it, however.

Duke - I think you've missed the "normally". Nothing states once you're IN the terrain that you can trace los always. Just you target normally.

Aah, you are right. Takes everything I said and junks it, and makes me wonder if my old 2 man crusader "los interruption squads" will make a comeback. Cause once you got a small enough unit you can hide them from stray angles coming through holes or doors or windows in the terrain very easily.

Wonder how they will handle forest areas?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ruins do have it, however.

Note quite true... as per the article: "To make life easy, the Warhammer 40,000 Core Book includes some handy guidelines for which terrain traits to apply to the most common pieces of terrain." Meaning, it's not a must follow for Ruins. All of it would have to be agreed on ahead of time, either from your opponent, or tournament guidelines. (Emphasis mine)

I assume if you declare a terrain piece as ruins it follows the rules for ruins.

SaganGree wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ruins do have it, however.

Note quite true... as per the article: "To make life easy, the Warhammer 40,000 Core Book includes some handy guidelines for which terrain traits to apply to the most common pieces of terrain." Meaning, it's not a must follow for Ruins. All of it would have to be agreed on ahead of time, either from your opponent, or tournament guidelines. (Emphasis mine)

Which just makes arguing iver which terrain gets which Keywords another phase of the game as some of these keywords are going to very much tilt the favour of a game heavily to one army or the other.

Hopefully the argument won't be too bad. Either way, at this point in time I plan on supplying myself with a bunch of pipe cleaners or something so I can clearly outline area terrain or points that I think deserve special attention.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Aash wrote:
What’s confusing me is the bit about drawing a line of sight that doesn’t pass through the terrain.

Example 1:

An 18+wound model is 7” tall, it is positioned behind a wall 5” tall with the Obscuring keyword. 20” inches away (on the other side of the wall) is an infantry unit. I can draw an uninterrupted LOS between the 18w model and the infantry unit and it doesn’t pass through the Obscuring wall, because the line is higher than the highest point of the wall (7” > 5”).

Can the 18w model shoot the infantry unit?

Example 2:

An 18+wound model is 7” tall, it is positioned behind a wall 9” tall with the Obscuring keyword. 20” inches away (on the other side of the wall) is an infantry unit. I cannot draw an uninterrupted LOS between the 18w model and the infantry unit because it passes through the Obscuring wall, there is no LOS at all.

Can the infantry unit shoot the 18w model?

1) No idea, we don't know if LOS is drawn in a 3D plane or on a 2D plane.
2) No, because you don't have LOS.

Again we don't have the full rules, the game might not even use TLOS anymore.

True, we don't have the full rules. The wording of the obscuring rule, however, could mean the answer is "yes" to Example 2, from the statement that the model is visible behind the terrain feature. Until we see what they say from TLOS we won't know, but their statement could be interpreted that the model is visible and can be targeted even if the terrain piece is blocking all line of sight to the model (doubtful this was intended this way, I don't think they meant for an 18+ wound model 2" tall to be counted as visible when completely behind a 5"+ tall building). It's possible this might be one of the first things that could end up in a FAQ.

 Ghaz wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

If this terrain feature is at least 5" in height, models cannot see through or over this terrain feature.

Models that are on or within this terrain feature can be seen and targeted normally

Models cannot see through this terrain feature, and models that are on or within this terrain feature can be seen ? WTF ??

You can't see what's behind it, but you can see what's climbing all over it.

We don't know what terrain keywords models/fortifications will have. With that one i wouldnt be giving it obscuring. So you can see whats on it and behind it.

It seems that your trying to apply an innapropriate keyword to a bit of terrain then complaining that the keyword makes no logical sense in the context.