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 Crimson wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
In no way should a standard marine be this much tougher than say an Ork or genestealer, hell primaris make my Plague Marines look like chumps. 2W basic infantry is bad design period.

Of course a marine should be much more powerful than a basic ork! Orks sprout like mushrooms, standard boys are dime in a dozen. But sure, CSM should have the primamris profile as that is just the profile all marines should have.

More powerful as in having a better save and shooting better, of course! But being this much tougher, no not at all. Why are Orks such a threat fluffwise? Not just because they are dimes a dozen, many factions have that, but because they are so plentiful and hard as nails! But I guess part of the problem is that just how though a marine is fluctuates all over the place. Some fluff they are as you apparently think they should be, in others a 1.000 year veteran gets capped by an IG conscript and another gets out duelled by a commissar.

 Crimson wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Is that a mistake being fixed, or are we seeing the result of a slow grind in stat bloat over multiple editions? Because Marines started out life being S4 T3 W1 with a 4+ save that got reduced to a 5+ against Lasguns.

I know. And finally they feel like elites. For a long while a solution to things was to just throwing more cheap bodies at things. Elites usually were not elite enough compared to chumps to matter. GW has finally started to address this. And this doesn't mean buffing everyone, it means widening the gap between elites and mooks so that having more bodies is not always the best answer.

They felt like Elites in 4th edition. Not because they were hyper tough but because they behaved like elites.

Examples:
A: Units could only shoot at the closest target, unless they took a Ld test. Marines had high base Leadership, Sergeants could push it higher, and Captains gave everyone on the board Ld 10, making it easy for Marines to coordinate their fire.

B: All Marines came with Frag and Krak Grenades, and every model in combat could attack a vehicle with a Krak grenade, and always hit the rear armor. Your units of elites could handle enemy armor like a boss if they got to it.

C: ATSKNF. Marines, unlike every other faction, automatically rallied after a break test, and could freely move and shoot immediately. Your elite soldiers got right back into the fight faster than every one else.

Now "elite" is just MOAR stronger and MOAR tougher, hur dur. It's the lowest common denominator depiction of elite-ness.

2 Wounds is fine.

It's all the other stuff that's getting stacked on top that's the problem. Extra AP, extra-special rapidfire rules, re-rolling everything, extra attacks on top!

rbstr wrote:
2 Wounds is fine.

In comparison to Necrons, Genestealers, Orks, Aspect Warriors, etc.? Just straight up double the wounds? Should it be possible for a single Bolter round to take a marine out of action? How about a Heavy Bolter shell? You know, the fist-sized grenade-bullet? How about a swing with a Power Sword? Should a single Power Sword strike be absolutely unable to take a marine out of action?

 Insectum7 wrote:
More powerful than an Immortal?

Probably not. Though I know very little of necrons as they're ugly and boring.

More powerful than a Genestealer? More Powerful than a Warp Spider, Striking Scorpion and Dire Avenger? If so, how much so?

Marine should have more raw power (better stats) than any of these, and be better on average, but thse things should be better than a marine at the things they specialise at (except maybe Dire Avengers, who are kinda boring generalists.) Also the Aspect Warriors should have all sorts of tricks (I guess stratagems in the current system) which allow them to do crazier stuff than the marines.

With Eldar I generally feel that their traditional units such as aspect warriors have been neglected by the designers in favour of vehicles.

Should their gun be superior to both a Tau Pulse Rifle

Possibly.

and Necron Gauss Blaster. . .

¨
Probably not

Should 10 Marines, when engaging waves of Orks, simply be able to just stand in cover and shoot until they are dead? At what point should they start to require support from Land Speeders or Whirlwind artillery? 20 Orks? 50 Orks? 100 Orks? Where do you draw the line?

36.

I'd rewrite everything from the ground up to fix this. They aren't doing this, so I'm pretty neutral on this topic.

The aura system is cancer compared to 2W imo.

rbstr wrote:
2 Wounds is fine.

It's all the other stuff that's getting stacked on top that's the problem. Extra AP, extra-special rapidfire rules, re-rolling everything, extra attacks on top!

At minimum the super doctrines from the supplements were a step too far. And I'm not a huge fan of the regular doctrines either. Extra attack on charge is good though, as it actually makes you consider assaulting from time to time, instead of just boringly staying put and shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Castozor wrote:

More powerful as in having a better save and shooting better, of course! But being this much tougher, no not at all. Why are Orks such a threat fluffwise? Not just because they are dimes a dozen, many factions have that, but because they are so plentiful and hard as nails!

And they're hard as nails compared to normal humans. But marines still have to be significantly better or they would be completely useless against such overwhelming numbers.

But I guess part of the problem is that just how though a marine is fluctuates all over the place. Some fluff they are as you apparently think they should be, in others a 1.000 year veteran gets capped by an IG conscript and another gets out duelled by a commissar.

It does fluctuate, and I am certainly not a fan of the most eccessive BL power fantasies. But , still, marines need to be significantly better than normal humans. "Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops," is an old quote by Rogal Dorn, been in the books who knows how long. That sounds like a fair assessment of the marine power in the fluff. Now in the game you need to tone things down, I get that. And one Intercessor cannot take ten guardsmen. Four or five if he's lucky. And that seems pretty fine to me.

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
More powerful than an Immortal?

Probably not. Though I know very little of necrons as they're ugly and boring.

Well I'll tell you that the basic Necron Warrior was roughly the same stats and MORE expensive than a Tac Marine for nearly ten years. Immortals were arguably the best infantry in the game. T5, Assault 24" S5 AP4 weapon, and originally an Elite. Now they are plainly worse than a Primaris. Warriors are even worse off, and show no signs of improving.

 Crimson wrote:

More powerful than a Genestealer? More Powerful than a Warp Spider, Striking Scorpion and Dire Avenger? If so, how much so?

Marine should have more raw power (better stats) than any of these, and be better on average, but thse things should be better than a marine at the things they specialise at (except maybe Dire Avengers, who are kinda boring generalists.) Also the Aspect Warriors should have all sorts of tricks (I guess stratagems in the current system) which allow them to do crazier stuff than the marines.

are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?

Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires

 Crimson wrote:
"Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops,"

And how do you interpret that? Just standing in a line shooting at each other? Or perhaps there's more nuance to it, that speak to some of the other marine abilities and doctrine?

 Castozor wrote:
In no way should a standard marine be this much tougher than say an Ork or genestealer, hell primaris make my Plague Marines look like chumps. 2W basic infantry is bad design period.

"Basic infantry"
Well a good thing they aren't basic infantry.

A Gaurdsmen is a basic infantry. You take a Gaurdsmen. You tripple it's overall mass and give it a mechanical powered suit and a rapid fire grenade launcher and mutiple bionic augments. Essentially it is a machine at that point. Much stronger than an ork. As fast as an eldar. As tough as a necron. The only way to model this is to make them more expensive but as good or better at all the jobs these other troops do. They finally got this right. Stop whining about it and bring as much plasma and weapons with -AP as you can to deal with it. WAIT. That has been the go to stratagey in every freaking addition and as a result marines have ALWAYS sucked because all their stats can be ignored. 2 W is the only way to make these guys even remotely more durable than multiples of chaff units.

If we were going the basic infantry route for marines. Dropping a standard marine down to 9 or 10 points for what it does on the table would have been the way to go about doing that.

Not Online!!! wrote:
are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?

Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires

I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
In no way should a standard marine be this much tougher than say an Ork or genestealer, hell primaris make my Plague Marines look like chumps. 2W basic infantry is bad design period.

"Basic infantry"
Well a good thing they aren't basic infantry.

A Gaurdsmen is a basic infantry. You take a Gaurdsmen. You tripple it's overall mass and give it a mechanical powered suit and a rapid fire grenade launcher and mutiple bionic augments. Essentially it is a machine at that point. Much stronger than an ork. As fast as an eldar. As tough as a necron. The only way to model this is to make them more expensive but as good or better at all the jobs these other troops do. They finally got this right. Stop whining about it and bring as much plasma and weapons with -AP as you can to deal with it. WAIT. That has been the go to stratagey in every freaking addition and as a result marines have ALWAYS sucked because all their stats can be ignored. 2 W is the only way to make these guys even remotely more durable than multiples of chaff units.

Well they're TWICE as tough as a Necron at the moment.

I play Marines, I know where they stand. I can kill Primaris just fine because my troops can load up on Plasma and Grav. . . . but other factions can't. Aspect Warriors are totally outclassed by Intercessors, and that just shouldn't be the case. Genestealers don't do nearly the damage they should against Primaris, etc.

 Crimson wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?

Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires

I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.

And to Dire Avengers, and to Incubi, and to Immortals.

 Crimson wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?

Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires

I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.

Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.

 harlokin wrote:

And to Dire Avengers, and to Incubi, and to Immortals.

Immortals probably. Dire avengers should just get a better gun and possibly some some better stratagems.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?

Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires

I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.

Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.

Even if they had the Primaris statline they'd still be far, faaar from having everything that loyalists had.

And it's just a bad look to have you good guys be so outright superior than the bad-guy version of the same.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
In no way should a standard marine be this much tougher than say an Ork or genestealer, hell primaris make my Plague Marines look like chumps. 2W basic infantry is bad design period.

Of course a marine should be much more powerful than a basic ork! Orks sprout like mushrooms, standard boys are dime in a dozen. But sure, CSM should have the primamris profile as that is just the profile all marines should have.

More powerful than an Immortal? More powerful than a Genestealer? More Powerful than a Warp Spider, Striking Scorpion and Dire Avenger? If so, how much so? Should their gun be superior to both a Tau Pulse Rifle and Necron Gauss Blaster. . . at the same time?

Should 10 Marines, when engaging waves of Orks, simply be able to just stand in cover and shoot until they are dead? At what point should they start to require support from Land Speeders or Whirlwind artillery? 20 Orks? 50 Orks? 100 Orks? Where do you draw the line?

Most people are still mad about Immortals being reduced to Marine statlines so what's your point? Also you get two to three Pulse Rifles per Bolt Rifle and no the Bolt Rifle is inferior to the Gauss Blaster. More pure Primaris hatred because you're stuck in Manlet Marine World.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.

Not the exact same things, but things of similar power. It always bugged me that CSM, some of which vere super ancient veterans infused with chaos power were now better than brand new loyalists. And now they're relaively even worse. Tis chaos thing is obviously a total hoax.

I don't play CSM, I play loyalist marines. But CSM should be terrifying warp-fuelled monstrosities with millennia's worth of experience and spite.

^@Slayer: Well that's not worth responding to.

 Insectum7 wrote:

rbstr wrote:
2 Wounds is fine.

In comparison to Necrons, Genestealers, Orks, Aspect Warriors, etc.? Just straight up double the wounds? Should it be possible for a single Bolter round to take a marine out of action? How about a Heavy Bolter shell? You know, the fist-sized grenade-bullet? How about a swing with a Power Sword? Should a single Power Sword strike be absolutely unable to take a marine out of action?

The idea of Wounds is more than abstract enough to cover this. Primaris happen to be tough enough to keep going through what might incapacitate others. Should some other units maybe also have 2 wounds? Sure.
But fundamentally this isn't a fine-simulation game and the damage characteristic of a heavy bolter shot incorporates detonating next to and obliterating some poor Guardsman and also putting a Space Marine full of shrapnel even though he can fight through the pain.
I think worrying about things beyond the more impressionistic way falls apart quite quickly. Why do we accept infantry characters having more than 1 wound? and so on. There's balance and playability to worry about beyond that as well.

Getting to balance 2W infantry can actually provide a neat consideration in listbuilding/unit roles. For example before getting buffed to high heaven we could consider that a Primaris marine's single Bolt Rifle means that a squad of them would have 10 wounds but put out ~half the shots of 10 wounds worth of Tacs. In general vs. other armies the idea would be Primaris get more wounds per point but at the cost of less shooting per point.
Which brings the whole thing around to what I see as the real issue currently: Right now, thanks to the extra stuff, rather than the datasheet, Primaris basically just get to be more efficient at everything.

 harlokin wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?

Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires

I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.

And to Dire Avengers, and to Incubi, and to Immortals.

Hummm Exarch warriors could use a buff and a point increase. They should not become more durable though in wound total. Perhaps an agility save should be standard on all of them though (something like a 5+FNP).
Avengers should probably automatically rend with all their wounds or something shooty offensive.
Incubi seem pretty okay for me right now. If they had a 5+ FNP they would be amazing.
Warriors I think probably should have 2 wounds with a 4+. An Immortal? An immortal should probably be more comparable to a marine in gravis armor. They should cost a lot more for these buffs though. Rules wise you have to be really careful with defensive power on units that can come back to life though...that is common sense.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
"Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops,"

And how do you interpret that? Just standing in a line shooting at each other? Or perhaps there's more nuance to it, that speak to some of the other marine abilities and doctrine?

Yeah, theres also the inconvenience that this works awesome for super masturbatory fanfic and incredibly gakky in a game where everyones models cost the same price.

Theres a line where people are no longer going to accept your space marines that you got a 1k pt army of for 100 bucks requiring 500+$ of other factions models to fight.

Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?

Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires

I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.

Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.

Ok, then explain why none of this

Xenomancers wrote:"Basic infantry"
Well a good thing they aren't basic infantry.

A Gaurdsmen is a basic infantry. You take a Gaurdsmen. You tripple it's overall mass and give it a mechanical powered suit and a rapid fire grenade launcher and mutiple bionic augments. Essentially it is a machine at that point. Much stronger than an ork. As fast as an eldar. As tough as a necron. The only way to model this is to make them more expensive but as good or better at all the jobs these other troops do. They finally got this right. Stop whining about it and bring as much plasma and weapons with -AP as you can to deal with it. WAIT. That has been the go to stratagey in every freaking addition and as a result marines have ALWAYS sucked because all their stats can be ignored. 2 W is the only way to make these guys even remotely more durable than multiples of chaff units.

Applies to csm. I wait with baited breath.

rbstr wrote:
2 Wounds is fine.

It's all the other stuff that's getting stacked on top that's the problem. Extra AP, extra-special rapidfire rules, re-rolling everything, extra attacks on top!

But the issue is you can't really just have one. The reason all those things got stacked on top is precisely because once you start giving a troop choice 2W each, you need to dial up their points, and that means that if you don't also dial up their offense, they end up being anemic at killing things. This is kind-of what happened to primaris at 8th edition release - they had the defensive toughness, and the premium price tag, but not the offense to back it up.

The big reason 2W is bad is because it results in an arms race that ends up kicking up all those other stats too, along with deflating the points costs of other armies as essentially every standard 1W infantry model suddenly becomes chaff in comparison.

rbstr wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

rbstr wrote:
2 Wounds is fine.

In comparison to Necrons, Genestealers, Orks, Aspect Warriors, etc.? Just straight up double the wounds? Should it be possible for a single Bolter round to take a marine out of action? How about a Heavy Bolter shell? You know, the fist-sized grenade-bullet? How about a swing with a Power Sword? Should a single Power Sword strike be absolutely unable to take a marine out of action?

The idea of Wounds is more than abstract enough to cover this. Primaris happen to be tough enough to keep going through what might incapacitate others. Should some other units maybe also have 2 wounds? Sure.
But fundamentally this isn't a fine-simulation game and the damage characteristic of a heavy bolter shot incorporates detonating next to and obliterating some poor Guardsman and also putting a Space Marine full of shrapnel even though he can fight through the pain.
I think worrying about things beyond the more impressionistic way falls apart quite quickly. Why do we accept infantry characters having more than 1 wound? and so on. There's balance and playability to worry about beyond that as well.

Getting to balance 2W infantry can actually provide a neat consideration in listbuilding/unit roles. For example before getting buffed to high heaven we could consider that a Primaris marine's single Bolt Rifle means that a squad of them would have 10 wounds but put out ~half the shots of 10 wounds worth of Tacs. In general vs. other armies the idea would be Primaris get more wounds per point but at the cost of less shooting per point.
Which brings the whole thing around to what I see as the real issue currently: Right now, thanks to the extra stuff, rather than the datasheet, Primaris basically just get to be more efficient at everything.

So I'll grant you that things are abstracted for the game, absolutely. But the fact that a heavy bolter round still can't one-shot a marine really doesn't feel appropriate.

Consider a different model instead. Make Marines/Primaris/whatever T5, but keep the old wound chart, and keep them 1W. A S3 weapon now only wounds on a 6, reducing incoming damage by half (the same as 2W), but S4 weapons now wound only on a 5+, reducing damage by a third, and still allowing the one-shot kill. A Heavy Bolter wounds only on a 4+ now, but also can achieve a 1 shot kill. Imo this would have been a far better model than 2W. 2W is a giant and unnecessary buff, especially when combined with the 8th ed wound chart which reduced the hitting power of higher strength weapons as well.

 Crimson wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.

Not the exact same things, but things of similar power. It always bugged me that CSM, some of which vere super ancient veterans infused with chaos power were now better than brand new loyalists. And now they're relaively even worse. Tis chaos thing is obviously a total hoax.

I don't play CSM, I play loyalist marines. But CSM should be terrifying warp-fuelled monstrosities with millennia's worth of experience and spite.

I mean...Bezerkers kinda are that. So are Possessed...So is Mortarian! I'm not opposed to choas having additional tricky power...or the ability to overpower a marine army with daemonic possessed psychic powers or something. Even now - choas is better at everything other than just standing in a ball and shooting everything up.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?

Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires

I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.

Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.

First Off chaos.
Secondly:i don't want primaris, i just wonder wtf VOLKITE HERESY TECH MAKES ON CHILDREN AGEWISE that allready have everything +1.
thirdly: cultmarines suck because gw said so, beeing just csm (which are Bad allready) but more expensive and therefore worse. Daemonengines have as Of yet never had an Edition where they actually worked . And cultist have just been taken behind the shed because feth light infantry and if you dare bring up fw R&H i swear i will dreadsock someone.

Genestealers are one thing. And just like CSM/Tacticals, they too should get another wound...

What annoyes me more and more is how the actual elite Nid infantry is downgraded with every edition. Why Nid Warriors and Raveners were left on their ages-old 3W when everything else was multipled.

When I started, Nid Warriors were roughly on a Terminator level, at least against bolters and lighter anti-infantry weapons, three times as many wounds as marines, superior melee skill, boneswords were much better than power swords and with whips they attacked faster than marines. A single melee warrior could cut down several marines per phase.

They were colossal and deadly in comparison to marines.

And right now, a Nid Warrior is merely comparable to a mundane Intercessor. It has some advantages, some disadvantages, slightly better RAW stats but a fraction of special rules and synergies.

The points are more or less balanced, so that's not an issue, but this is a horrible and humiliating place to be for these beautiful heavies.

They aren't supposed to be on par with general marine troops. They should be more like Aggressors, relatively to the current Marine line, ability-wise, and pointwise. Sorry, properly costed Aggressors, not the current undercosted joke.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.

Not the exact same things, but things of similar power. It always bugged me that CSM, some of which vere super ancient veterans infused with chaos power were now better than brand new loyalists. And now they're relaively even worse. Tis chaos thing is obviously a total hoax.

I don't play CSM, I play loyalist marines. But CSM should be terrifying warp-fuelled monstrosities with millennia's worth of experience and spite.

I mean...Bezerkers kinda are that. So are Possessed...So is Mortarian! I'm not opposed to choas having additional tricky power...or the ability to overpower a marine army with daemonic possessed psychic powers or something. Even now - choas is better at everything other than just standing in a ball and shooting everything up.

Hence why I push for CSM to all have Vet stats at minimum.