What are they going to do with eldar?

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**bullyboy**

Daedalus81 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
White Scars biker: 6 S4 -2AP 2D attacks on T3.

Phoenix Lord, greatest warrior of a race that ruled the stars when humans were still using sharpened sticks: 4 S6 -3AP 1d3 damage attacks.

Primaris intercessor that isn't even a melee specialist: 3 S4 attacks, -1AP on T3+.

Striking Scorpion that spends decades or centuries training to be elite shock infantry: 2 S4 attacks, 0AP.

You can mathhammer away all you want on stuff that's totally ancillary to the discussion, but these relative stats are just stupid. Elite Eldar - both characters and units - have totally been left behind. We could ram the point home even more by bringing up a smash captain and comparing him to the phoenix lord too...but that would just be rubbing salt in the wound.

And a chaos lord thousands of years old has four attacks, well 5 now, I guess.

It isn't stupid, because the effectiveness matters. Nurglings get 4 and no one is writing home about those.

Ok, fine. Striking Scorpions get 4 S4 AP0 attacks now. This clearly makes them superior to Primaris. Problem solved?

Listen, I'm not unsympathetic, but the reality is if you want more attacks you're going to pay more points and then you're robbing peter to pay paul by creating a glass cannon. So, pick your poison.

I'll take more attacks.
Jain Zar should be 4 or 5 base, but at least get +2 A on the charge. The Blade of Destruction is fine as is.
A 4+ invuln would be nice too.

**Insectum7**

@Daedelus: Unless you are Primaris, where Peter and Paul rob Eldar.

See my post above about how despite being a CC specialist of similar points to the bikes, she barely makes it out alive despite the scenario being skewed in her favor by not giving the bikes the capability to shoot.

**Daedalus81**

bullyboy wrote:

I'll take more attacks.
Jain Zar should be 4 or 5 base, but at least get +2 A on the charge. The Blade of Destruction is fine as is.
A 4+ invuln would be nice too.

Which renders storm of silence a moot point and it becomes a role change from horde kill to elite killer, which seems to be the only metric people look at.

With -1 to be hit she gets a bit better than a 4++, too. A TH Sarge lands 2.5 wounds if she has no negative, but a 4++ and 2.2 as she is currently. Of course...having the cake and eating it, too...

**yukishiro1**

Of course you're going to have to pay more points for more attacks. You seem to be mistakenly thinking people want eldar buffed for the same points cost, when literally everyone here has said the problem is that eldar aspect warriors have become bargain-basement junk.

Scorpions shouldn't get 2 S4 AP 0 attacks. They also shouldn't be only 9 points. Both of these things are problems. Hence why I said you seem to be agreeing with me without realizing it.

**ZebioLizard2**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I played against Eldar a lot in 3rd Ed. They were tough, but beatable.

When I finally played my only 7th (I think they were 7th) games, most of them were against Eldar. Getting blasted off the table by Wave Serpents shield attacks and Wraithknights and Tau allies wasn't fun in the slightest.

I remember third edition Altoic lists with the Ranger Disruption table, constant pinning, free shots, forced into reserves.. not fun.

I can't remember if it was also 3rd edition or 3.5, but the suncannon spam was pretty obnoxious too.

**yukishiro1**

Yeah historically Eldar has been a problematic army. But that's even more reason to finally fix it in 9th instead of just making it problematic in some new way.

I can't speak for others, but what I want is not really for Eldar to be more powerful in a competitive sense, I want them to feel like an elite army of a proud, powerful, but dying race for which every one of their number matters and every death is a tragedy, not a bunch of bargain-basement weaklings who get dunked on my primaris intercessors but win through cheesy abuse of a handful of very powerful units.

**Daedalus81**

Insectum7 wrote:
@Daedelus: Unless you are Primaris, where Peter and Paul rob Eldar.

See my post above about how despite being a CC specialist of similar points to the bikes, she barely makes it out alive despite the scenario being skewed in her favor by not giving the bikes the capability to shoot.

She blocks O/W and is a character. There are few scenarios where the bikes will shoot her. Kiting is not likely - and these bikes are not pointed to shoot. If you wanted to do that just use Intercessors. JZ moves 11.5 and charges 10". Only if she were to fight WS and be outpointed by them with no support would she lose - and I'm not even bothering to spill extra wounds over. She will clean out six of these things without a doctrine.

Attacks on the charge is a bit of a trap. If you charge turn 2 and your opponent successfully locks you into combat (with a tank now, even) the unit's attacks will get cut in half. So even if you're White Scars they'll perform poorly. That means charging them turn 2 could very well be a bad play and you have to keep them alive for a turn 3 charge. At that point you might as well go max (6 probably) and stick them in reserves, but that's a good bit of army that might not see combat until turn 4.

I think people are way overselling these things - and given that the points may even be lower than I'm thinking, which will cause another panic and run on the banks until people actually play them.

**bullyboy**

Daedalus81 wrote:
bullyboy wrote:

I'll take more attacks.
Jain Zar should be 4 or 5 base, but at least get +2 A on the charge. The Blade of Destruction is fine as is.
A 4+ invuln would be nice too.

Which renders storm of silence a moot point and it becomes a role change from horde kill to elite killer, which seems to be the only metric people look at.

With -1 to be hit she gets a bit better than a 4++, too. A TH Sarge lands 2.5 wounds if she has no negative, but a 4++ and 2.2 as she is currently. Of course...having the cake and eating it, too...

that's the problem with probability sometimes, it creates impossibilities. A TH sarge will either inflict 0, 3, 6, 9 or 12 wounds...there is no 2.5. And storm of silence is a joke, it really is. I play Dark Angels, deathwatch and Ravenguard, and I can tell you that no marine player can sit here and complain about Jain Zar's stats. It's beyond laughable.

**yukishiro1**

WS have fall back and charge, so you can charge every turn, assuming that hasn't been nerfed in 9th. But again, it's not about the math, it's about the fact that Eldar have become a bunch of bargain-basement weaklings. Even their special characters that are supposed to be absolute paragons of the race are weaklings compared to generic space marine characters. Hell, not even space marines - even a bargain basement 45 point SOB bloody rose Canoness with the teeth of terra clone and the warlord trait will embarrass Jain Zar.

The fact is that eldar combat choices simply haven't kept up with the ridiculous stat inflation that 8th saw for Imperium factions.

**Daedalus81**

yukishiro1 wrote:
Of course you're going to have to pay more points for more attacks. You seem to be mistakenly thinking people want eldar buffed for the same points cost, when literally everyone here has said the problem is that eldar aspect warriors have become bargain-basement junk.

Scorpions shouldn't get 2 S4 AP 0 attacks. They also shouldn't be only 9 points. Both of these things are problems. Hence why I said you seem to be agreeing with me without realizing it.

I suppose, but again you'll make Eldar a glass cannon and cause yourself other problems in the process all for a couple piddly attacks at a time when people lament the durability of Primaris who couldn't give a crap about those. I just don't see the desire.

And if it makes you feel any better (I know it doesn't, but humor me) the Outrider attacks are 50% from gear. Just like SS benefit from their blasters, which is ignored for this mental exercise. They don't actually outclass JZ in a "proper" sense.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Hell, not even space marines - even a bargain basement 45 point SOB bloody rose Canoness with the teeth of terra clone and the warlord trait will embarrass Jain Zar.

Ok you got me there, but you're talking relic and trait. It would have been nice to see Eldar do better in that department with PA.

**yukishiro1**

Yes, it makes me feel much better that the reason Jain Zar gets dumpstered by generic space marines is that Eldar technology is inferior junk compared to the technology of the Imper...oh wait. Hmm.

I mean to be fair, eldar technology IS inferior junk compared to the imperium in 8th edition 40k. But that's part of the problem, not an explanation.

In conclusion, Make Eldar Great Again.

**Daedalus81**

yukishiro1 wrote:

In conclusion, Make Eldar Great Again.

Well, you've got one thing going for you - GW tends to rewrite rules when new models pop up and there's a lot to do for Eldar. You'll just have to cross your fingers to break the JZ barrier.

**warmaster21**

Not an eldar player but personally i think Striking scorpians should get 5 attacks, 2 base, 2 from mandiblasters and +1 from the sword. 5 s4 ap-, d1 attacks would make them great horde / light infantry cleareres as they shoudl be while being able to do at least some damage meqs. IF 5 is too much make the mandiblasters during the first turn of combat and then down to 3 attacks the rest of it.

if they want to keep banshees at 2 attacks they should all be armed with the scythes, S5 ap? d? attacks would make them great against meqs/teqs as they should be.

Another thing that was always weird in in the fluff of alot of elder and even DE units like incubi they talk about all these other weapons they train on (specifically incubi does) but then they only have 1 melee profile.

Imagine of Dire avengers could all be armed with Avenger shurikens and direswords/power swoerds//shields. Or banshees all armed with the frisbee things...

Warp spiders with power blades on top of their main guns or able to take the other rifle types not just on the exarch.

would probably go a long way to helping fix the infantry and just adjust the point costs up as needed.

Alot of the Exarch gear options (especially with the PA exarch ability options) are so anti-synergy with what the unit does with its base wargear.

Or even if Banshees got the wych treatment and only a few could replace their powerswords with select pieces of the exarch gear woudl go a long way to makign them better (same with other aspect warriors)

It would be fun to be able to at least match the aspect warrior to their phoenix lord, fire dragons with axes, avengers with sword/shield, etc etc.

**slave.entity**

Eldar have always been top tier or close to it. They are a true evergreen army. Aspect warriors suck bum but honestly I can't complain. Plenty of fun to be had spamming grav tanks and flyers this edition.

Also technically, Shining Spears and Crimson Hunter Exarchs ARE aspect warriors....

EDIT: Just wanted to add the total lack of infantry in my lists this edition actually felt pretty fluffy. It was as if the eldar had more tanks than they had pilots to fly them. Really played into the whole 'dying race' aesthetic.

**Hellebore**

warmaster21 wrote:Not an eldar player but personally i think Striking scorpians should get 5 attacks, 2 base, 2 from mandiblasters and +1 from the sword. 5 s4 ap-, d1 attacks would make them great horde / light infantry cleareres as they shoudl be while being able to do at least some damage meqs. IF 5 is too much make the mandiblasters during the first turn of combat and then down to 3 attacks the rest of it.

if they want to keep banshees at 2 attacks they should all be armed with the scythes, S5 ap? d? attacks would make them great against meqs/teqs as they should be.

Another thing that was always weird in in the fluff of alot of elder and even DE units like incubi they talk about all these other weapons they train on (specifically incubi does) but then they only have 1 melee profile.

Imagine of Dire avengers could all be armed with Avenger shurikens and direswords/power swoerds//shields. Or banshees all armed with the frisbee things...

Warp spiders with power blades on top of their main guns or able to take the other rifle types not just on the exarch.

would probably go a long way to helping fix the infantry and just adjust the point costs up as needed.

Alot of the Exarch gear options (especially with the PA exarch ability options) are so anti-synergy with what the unit does with its base wargear.

Or even if Banshees got the wych treatment and only a few could replace their powerswords with select pieces of the exarch gear woudl go a long way to makign them better (same with other aspect warriors)

It would be fun to be able to at least match the aspect warrior to their phoenix lord, fire dragons with axes, avengers with sword/shield, etc etc.

Yes I would have loved it if they'd put options on the banshee sprue so you could get that weapon variety the exarchs have on the whole squad. Alas they did the cheapest job they could with tiny sprues, duplicate unhelmeted heads to count as Ynnari and that's it. Primaris got more BOLTER options than that...

slave.entity wrote:Eldar have always been top tier or close to it. They are a true evergreen army. Aspect warriors suck bum but honestly I can't complain. Plenty of fun to be had spamming grav tanks and flyers this edition.

Also technically, Shining Spears and Crimson Hunter Exarchs ARE aspect warriors....

EDIT: Just wanted to add the total lack of infantry in my lists this edition actually felt pretty fluffy. It was as if the eldar had more tanks than they had pilots to fly them. Really played into the whole 'dying race' aesthetic.

If GW just End timesed the eldar and said 'your're a tank army now', that's one thing. But we don't have that. We've got an army described one way and an army list playing entirely differently.

Aspects and exarchs are in my view one of the coolest and most interesting concepts in 40k. It's a crying shame how poorly GW have treated them for 20 years.

**morganfreeman**

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah historically Eldar has been a problematic army. But that's even more reason to finally fix it in 9th instead of just making it problematic in some new way.

I can't speak for others, but what I want is not really for Eldar to be more powerful in a competitive sense, I want them to feel like an elite army of a proud, powerful, but dying race for which every one of their number matters and every death is a tragedy, not a bunch of bargain-basement weaklings who get dunked on my primaris intercessors but win through cheesy abuse of a handful of very powerful units.

And I want to be able to place literally any combination of my orks on the table and be close to as powerful as Eldar consistently have been each edition. I don't mean "any combination" as in a random hodge podge, I mean ANY kind of option which lets me be strong and competitive.

I want the same for Nids, Crons, or several other xenos races with players who would kill to have a a single edition half as powerful as Eldar consistently are.

Eldar aren't fine, but they're not in desperate need. Complaining about how they need to be reworked to live up to their lore is spitting in the face of anyone who plays legitimately weak armies. The army may not function the way you like but it's still counted amongst the "player character" factions. I legitimately hope Eldar find themselves tuned like one of the NPC factions this coming edition, so that Eldar players can have a taste of what others have been dealing with for the better part of a decade.

**Karol**

morganfreeman wrote:

And I want to be able to place literally any combination of my orks[ on the table and be close to as powerful as Eldar consistently have been each edition.

I want the same for Nids, Crons, or several other xenos races with players who would kill to have a a single edition half as powerful as Eldar consistently are.

Eldar aren't fine, but they're not in desperate need. Complaining about how they need to be reworked to live up to their lore is spitting in the face of anyone who plays legitimately weak armies. The army make not function the way you like but it's still counted amongst the "player character" factions. I legitimately hope Eldar find themselves tuned like one of the NPC factions this coming edition, so that Eldar players can have a taste of what others have been dealing with for the better part of a decade.

Maybe from eldar players point of view not being the best is an unacceptable state of the game. They lost their minds when IH, became the best army, it was even cited that the IH armies had a X% higher win ratio then the best eldar list, which is laughable considering at the same time in the game there were armies that didn't even have a 50% win ratio.

**Dysartes**

Karol wrote:
morganfreeman wrote:

And I want to be able to place literally any combination of my orks[ on the table and be close to as powerful as Eldar consistently have been each edition.

I want the same for Nids, Crons, or several other xenos races with players who would kill to have a a single edition half as powerful as Eldar consistently are.

Eldar aren't fine, but they're not in desperate need. Complaining about how they need to be reworked to live up to their lore is spitting in the face of anyone who plays legitimately weak armies. The army make not function the way you like but it's still counted amongst the "player character" factions. I legitimately hope Eldar find themselves tuned like one of the NPC factions this coming edition, so that Eldar players can have a taste of what others have been dealing with for the better part of a decade.

Maybe from eldar players point of view not being the best is an unacceptable state of the game. They lost their minds when IH, became the best army, it was even cited that the IH armies had a X% higher win ratio then the best eldar list, which is laughable considering at the same time in the game there were armies that didn't even have a 50% win ratio.

By definition, not all armies can have a 50% win rate - in fact, allowing for the fact that a draw is a reasonable result, I believe the realistic balance point is around a 45-48% win rate.

**kingheff**

I was watching an art of war stream and the question of eldar in 9th came up. They were all in agreement that eldar will probably struggle due to the smaller board size making it harder for eldar to hide and pick their engagements. It's basically the shooting fish in a barrel scenario. They seem to think it will be possibly even more shooty than 8th but with some strong melee to counter charge.
Obviously we don't have the full picture so time will tell but when three top tier players say they will struggle I'm inclined to believe them.

**Barbachop**

morganfreeman wrote:

Eldar aren't fine, but they're not in desperate need. Complaining about how they need to be reworked to live up to their lore is spitting in the face of anyone who plays legitimately weak armies. The army make not function the way you like but it's still counted amongst the "player character" factions. I legitimately hope Eldar find themselves tuned like one of the NPC factions this coming edition, so that Eldar players can have a taste of what others have been dealing with for the better part of a decade.

Most of the thread's contributions from Eldar players are about a desire to see a thematic shift in how the army functions, a return to aspect warriors and force multipliers instead of EC spam or flyer gimmicks as we have seen in 8e. It looks like these players would happily pay a point premium to see a boost in strength to "elite" units.

There's every chance that in implementing the above changes Eldar may be less competitive than their current state, and my take is that most contributors to this thread would be happy with this so long as it meant that when their aspect warriors did get into combat with other army's troops choices they dominated that micro element of the game.

Repeatedly decrying people's ambition to see their army's direction change just comes off as bitter and doesn't really add to the discussion.

While on the subject, theres a fantastic thread on the Eldar subreddit which shows the release date of our kits. It summarises by showing that 52% of the Eldar kit is metal, resin/finecast. Theres even one piece of our range still produced that uses the original Rogue Trader cast. Interesting as a retrospective, and probably indicative that there should be a pass at some point soon

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/comments/he6j49/guide_to_how_old_the_craftworld_eldar_range_is/

**warmaster21**

The one thing that every stopped me from getting into eldar is how ugly and old most of the models are (and i started early 3rd edition) and one oft he things that keeps stopping me from picking up any elder kits whenever i get the urge to start up a new army

I hope eldar gets the big model line revamp that sisters got, even if it means they get 0 new units a full line redo of their kits is needed.

**shortymcnostrill**

Hellebore wrote:
Caveat: this might sound a little like a vent, but the frustrations I've had with this army and GW's treatment of it are 25 years long so you'll have to excuse me...

I've played 40k since 2nd ed, with a hiatus from 5th-7th due mainly to the direction of the fluff (highlighted by Mat Ward's work).

In 2nd ed I started with space wolves as I like wolves, vikings and space.....

Towards the end of 2nd ed I started to get into the eldar. I loved their background the unit concepts and the cool aesthetic. Their kickass characters - warlocks, exarchs, solitaires etc. The Avatar with its cost the same as a Bloodthirster and a profile that was one of the toughest in the game.

The martial arts/kung fu temple/ninja styling really appealed to me, as did the hitech weaponry. The shuriken catapult was an amazing advanced weapon - 24" S4 AP-2 D1 1 sustained fire dice. It was a better stormbolter at the time.

When 3rd ed came around, the catapult was chopped in half and became a pistol. Exarchs effectively disappeared entirely, becoming nothing more than squad sergeants. Warlocks became squad sergeants. Avatars sucked. pretty much everything I had loved about the army was no longer there. But i persevered. Assault weapons weren't that bad given no one could charge if they'd fired a RF weapon but could with assault.

Then over the next 2 editions RF got better, assault got worse and every other army somehow kept getting improved. Orks went from worse AP bolters to 18" ranged catapults with worse AP - until they released new dire avengers and then the orks had a gun better than a catapult and worse than a dire catapult.

Throughout this time other armies got new units, or improvements on old. Sternguard and Vanguard became a thing and special issue ammo made bolters better.

After coming back into the game in 8th, I find the same problems in the army as I did 10 years ago. Warlocks suck, exarchs suck shuriken catapults suck. But to add insult to injury, it seems like every unique unique type or concept the eldar used, was looted by imperial armies (especially primaris). But admech now have better swooping hawks, the assault bolter is a superior catapult (after decades of people saying it would be broken to put 24" back on the catapult, they went made a BETTER version for the space marines...), and so on.

It just seems like the eldar have been stripped of the unique units and weapons that were a signature of the army, handed out to imperial armies, and left with inferior versions of the unit. Eldar went from most advanced race with cool characters and weapons, to a weird gimmick laden, spam army. Thousand sons do psychic army better, primaris do specialist units better, primaris do cool character options better (or at all).

So I'm just wondering, what the hell are the going to do with them? I would not be surprised if the eldar army isn't popular at the moment - you can pick from a plethora of power armoured imperial armies that do Eldar better than they do, so there's no real incentive to play them. Unless you like flier spam and psychic gimmicks, which isn't why I started playing them.

While they've expanded imperial armies from literally nothing (Ad Mech, primaris), they've shrunk eldar armies. We don't even have the option to take master warlocks or independent exarchs, but primaris get rando executioners never mentioned before? Is it so hard to just make Exarchs independent again? Or give us a new level of exarch? This is asking for stuff that USED to exist, it's not demanding the invention of mariokarts, or sword and board units (ahem).

It's hard enough to convince people that old stuff that used to be available should be there, let alone demand new stuff...

Most of all I'd like aspect warriors to be more than just worse space marines. It just seems like, no matter what the background says, GW is set on a course of making everyone worse at things than space marines...

So, what they hell are they going to do with eldar, that doesn't just continue this tepid, boring gimmick army that clearly looks nothing like what it should and is a shadow of its former self.

Thank you for this, this is exactly how I feel about my Eldar. I started collecting them for the feel of the army, super elite but fragile space ninjas. Deadlier and faster than marines, but with a glass jaw. The archetypical high elves when compared to the marines' knights. Instead they're now somewhere between oldmarines and guard when it comes to an individual model's capabilities (not to mention that all aspects feel like chaff when compared to primaris). This is why I've become more and more disillusioned with them, and why they were gathering dust way before corona hit.

For those of you ranting about eldar being tournament op or whatever; try reading the original post? It's clearly about loss of identity, not power level

**Bosskelot**

I know the thread kind of moved on, but earlier people were talking about Night Spinners and seemed to think that they weren't already very good units. In fact they're a highly competitive CWE choice right now.

**BlaxicanX**

Eldar have been an overpowered scourge upon the game like 15 years, 8th edition including, so hopefully just break the army's legs and let it sit for a few years.

**harlokin**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Eldar have been an overpowered scourge upon the game like 15 years, 8th edition including, so hopefully just break the army's legs and let it sit for a few years.

Does posting like a dill weed help in any way, or is this just for gaks and giggles?

**morganfreeman**

harlokin wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
Eldar have been an overpowered scourge upon the game like 15 years, 8th edition including, so hopefully just break the army's legs and let it sit for a few years.

Does posting like a dill weed help in any way, or is this just for gaks and giggles?

I donno, does crying because your consistently ultra powerful army isn't as thematically fulfilling as you'd like it to be help in any way, or is it just for gaks and giggles?

Let's not mince words here: Eldar players want to have their cake and eat it too; they want to be ultra powerful and have a thematically fulfilling army which can curb stomp near everything else.

I hope everyone in this thread gets what they claim to want. I hope that, in 9th, Aspect Warriors become the bread and butter of Eldar. And in turn I hope that they're gimped beyond belief and spend the entire edition near the bottom of the barrel unable to escape, so they can appreciate the special treatment they've had for the better part of a decade.

**harlokin**

morganfreeman wrote:
harlokin wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
Eldar have been an overpowered scourge upon the game like 15 years, 8th edition including, so hopefully just break the army's legs and let it sit for a few years.

Does posting like a dill weed help in any way, or is this just for gaks and giggles?

I donno, does crying because your consistently ultra powerful army isn't as thematically fulfilling as you'd like it to be help in any way, or is it just for gaks and giggles?

Complaining that an army/faction isn't where it should be is legitimate, and is one of the purposes of a forum such as this. The same can't be said of the trolling by some people who have no interest in the faction other than being disruptive and acting like witches.

**Nazrak**

Hellebore wrote:
Togusa wrote:
I'ma be honest. I'd have more sympathy for Eldar players, IF you guys didn't have the top codex for the last three editions. I remember my first LVO, 2017. Something like 6-7 of the top ten were eldar lists. Every other table had a wraithknight on it, sometimes hanging out with some T'au friends.

The first year I brought my Salamanders, I remember the list like it was yesterday. Captain, Librarian, Tactical Marines, Sternguard Vets, Thunderfire cannon or two, a Devestator Squad, 2 squads of terminators and a Landraider Crusader. Not competitive, but not terrible.

You know what happened game 1? Eldar Jet bikes, game was over by turn 2, I lost 80% of my forces. Game 2? Eldar jet Bikes, same result. Game three was a treat, I got to play against Necrons. Necron jet Bikes. Game was over turn three, with a VP score in each game 3:1.

That was the day I learned to hate the Eldar player. And, sometimes the Necron Player. But mostly Jet bikes.

You'll notice that, almost without exception, every time a new eldar dex is released and people 'hate' them, it's almost always because of a single unit (generally in association with a farseer), or a couple. Being able to abuse one or two units every edition might make them possible to win with, but it hides how terrible the army is and how impossible it is to play them in any other way than that one particular spam build flavour of the edition.

Giving eldar players the ability to use the whole dex isn't asking to make the whole dex as broken as those specific unit combos, it should actually reduce the broken nature of them.

I want to be able to play the army as they should play, not have to resort to crappy tricks that make people hate the army in order to get any kind of advantage.

At the moment the eldar army is the most gamiest, least representative army out there. That it can only really be competitive with unrealistic army compositions highlights this issue.

Was going to chuck my 2 cents in here, but this pretty much covers my feelings about Eldar, and it's what I always crash into when I start thinking about doing an army. Maybe it's just that most of my Eldar knowledge stems from the 1st/2nd ed. background material, but things like shuriken catapults being super short-ranged, and Howling Banshees not being the terrifying CC monsters they once were just means Eldar don't feel like Eldar to me. I'm old enough to remember when all the forums were perma-mad about Wraithlords in 3rd ed., and it seems like Eldar have just jumped from being reliant on one or two super-effective units ever since. Which perhaps explains why people seem to be so cross at them all the time too – if you make the army work more like it "should', then maybe people wouldn't find them so annoying, and you keep Eldar players AND their opponents happy?

**Niiai**

2nd edition charachters where bad game design. You ad so many rules on them they can not be touched. 2nd edition had a lot og unnesasery rules. Like eldar pop up attacks.

The idea with excharcs having special rules i stil pressent as squad leaders. Not all their rules are that inpactfull, but it is there. The autarch took the place of the hero excharc. You stil have the phoenix lords who are rather unoque.

In 4th edition most armies where very specialised with. 5th edition rounded many armies out. 6th edition gave every army a flyer. Etc.

Jump pack shooters was not only an eldar thing. Dark eldars have it as well with heavy weapons. Now primaries has it. Ad mech needed more design space. Dune type flyers with wings is not a bad place for them.

Eldars stil have unique weapon categories: Shuricen, fillament, psyker melee weapons, warp spider packs, hawk bombs etc.

**Bosskelot**

morganfreeman wrote:
harlokin wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
Eldar have been an overpowered scourge upon the game like 15 years, 8th edition including, so hopefully just break the army's legs and let it sit for a few years.

Does posting like a dill weed help in any way, or is this just for gaks and giggles?

Let's not mince words here: Eldar players want to have their cake and eat it too; they want to be ultra powerful and have a thematically fulfilling army which can curb stomp near everything else.

This is just describing Marines currently though.

Make no mistake, Marines are the only S+ Tier army in the game, even after the nerfs. And only very specific cheesy CWE army builds can put up a fight vs that army while 90% of the CWE Codex is actually underpowered or completely reasonable. Meanwhile you could blindfold yourself, throw darts at a board with marine units on it and still come out with a relatively competitive list that will still stomp most army lists in the game currently.

Your rage of Eldar is so hilariously misplaced.