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Nazrak wrote: I wouldn't really like to see a S boost for Banshees; it seems wrong, "feel"-wise. I'd much prefer a different solution like, say, more Attacks, which feels like it's more about speed than raw power.
It only feels wrong if your view of Banshees dates from 3rd edition or later. 2nd edition Banshees struck with S5 -3 power swords.
But everyone was getting high-S power swords back then (weren't they? having trouble remembering that far back now) – everything got kinda rolled back for everyone come 3rd. Problem is, everyone else got rolled forward and all my Eldar faves stayed where they were.
Not really. Nearly all Imperial heavy weapons had targeters, as did all Eldar heavy weapons, so these effects just cancelled each other out. The main factions affected were Orks, Tyranids, and Chaos, but these were all CC leaning armies anyway. Orks also had their weird Orky artillery that didn't really rely on to hit rolls in the first place.
Yeah, it was. Heavy bolters missed on 1 and 2 instead of just 1. When there were 120 of these things on a 2nd ed table, it was a big deal.
But everyone was getting high-S power swords back then (weren't they? having trouble remembering that far back now) – everything got kinda rolled back for everyone come 3rd. Problem is, everyone else got rolled forward and all my Eldar faves stayed where they were.
Sort of - a weapon's strength overwrote your own (unless yours was higher of course, but not many Ogryns got trusted with a power sword!) but again IIRC the point of Banshees was that it was a squad of power swords - for everyone else it was a character (or at best squad leader) weapon, which fed into Eldar tech superiority. So in the same way we have that modern meme about the Fire Dragons being "melta go fwoosh", Banshees were about delivering a whole lot of "near-guaranteed wounds with no saves for you" straight to the face.
You're right that the problem is that 3rd got rid of the first part of that sentence and they've never recovered in a MEQ world.
But everyone was getting high-S power swords back then (weren't they? having trouble remembering that far back now) – everything got kinda rolled back for everyone come 3rd. Problem is, everyone else got rolled forward and all my Eldar faves stayed where they were.
Sort of - a weapon's strength overwrote your own (unless yours was higher of course, but not many Ogryns got trusted with a power sword!) but again IIRC the point of Banshees was that it was a squad of power swords - for everyone else it was a character (or at best squad leader) weapon, which fed into Eldar tech superiority. So in the same way we have that modern meme about the Fire Dragons being "melta go fwoosh", Banshees were about delivering a whole lot of "near-guaranteed wounds with no saves for you" straight to the face.
You're right that the problem is that 3rd got rid of the first part of that sentence and they've never recovered in a MEQ world.
Ahhhh yeah of course – fixed S values on CC weapons had somehow disappeared right down the old memory hole.
Pretty much all my Eldar knowledge derives from those 1st-ed.-era WD articles that ended up in the 40K Compilation; but as I understand it, none of the units from that have really had any of the fluff around them changed; it's just a case of their rules failing to keep up, right?
Automatically Appended Next Post: It may just be nostalgia but if I could put together an Eldar army which worked in a way that evoked all the old stuff I read in like 1991, I'd be all over it in a flash.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/24 15:32:28
Yeah, Eldar squad fluff is essentially unchanged since then. Which suits me, it's why they grabbed my imagination so much, and when I finally got into a position to get into them I did, albeit years later. It's also why seeing Eldar army advice that's best summarised as "take as few (classic) Aspects as you can" hurts.
Galas wrote: Can we just ditch the intercessor argument?
No. Marines have been held up as the 'standard' to compare against for decades now. If all the clamoring has finally turned the 'standard marine' into an Intercessor, than Intercessors are what people will naturally compare units against. Esp. since Intercessors, and Primaris infantry in general, are so commonly fielded.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Speaking as someone who's taken 3x5 banshees to a tournament, I rate them quite highly in the right kind of list. Ditto Striking Scorpions. I think that people are sleeping on the impact of their exarch powers.
My Banshee Exarchs now *always* take piercing strike in an EC custom CWE detachment. Why? well, now your MSU Banshee squad has the teeth to punk characters, aggressors, cents and light vehicles: 2 S7 -3 D3 attacks, with a reroll to hit and wound is a lethal spike of damage and will often make up the unit's cost on its own.
Scorpion Exarchs have two variations for me: Biting Blade and Scorpion's Sting for a bargain unit that can occassionally spit mortal wounds on a backfield target, or Claw and Crushing Blow to drop some S10 attacks on something. Both are very well costed at 46 or 54pts respectively for an MSU harrasment unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As to the wider question of what will become of CWE, well, I'm actually of the opinion that they're one of the most enjoyable, powerful, wide rosters in the game. Whenever I go back to Imperium or Chaos lists I feel a bit cheated.
Speed, redeployment, excellent psychic phase, highly customisable cheap units, precise AT, good board control - what's not to like? Troops are a bit wafer thin, but we still have four viable options in the slot - how many armies can say the same?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/24 19:04:55
grouchoben wrote: Speaking as someone who's taken 3x5 banshees to a tournament, I rate them quite highly in the right kind of list. Ditto Striking Scorpions. I think that people are sleeping on the impact of their exarch powers.
My Banshee Exarchs now *always* take piercing strike in an EC custom CWE detachment. Why? well, now your MSU Banshee squad has the teeth to punk characters, aggressors, cents and light vehicles: 2 S7 -3 D3 attacks, with a reroll to hit and wound is a lethal spike of damage and will often make up the unit's cost on its own.
Scorpion Exarchs have two variations for me: Biting Blade and Scorpion's Sting for a bargain unit that can occassionally spit mortal wounds on a backfield target, or Claw and Crushing Blow to drop some S10 attacks on something. Both are very well costed at 46 or 54pts respectively for an MSU harrasment unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As to the wider question of what will become of CWE, well, I'm actually of the opinion that they're one of the most enjoyable, powerful, wide rosters in the game. Whenever I go back to Imperium or Chaos lists I feel a bit cheated.
Speed, redeployment, excellent psychic phase, highly customisable cheap units, precise AT, good board control - what's not to like? Troops are a bit wafer thin, but we still have four viable options in the slot - how many armies can say the same?
Congrats for getting some good value out of them. I'm not familiar with EC, is that the Expert Crafted thing? And that's a Psychic awakening thing, too right? (I'm here as a marine player in support of old-school style Eldar.)
I'm also here as a Tyranid player, and they have . . . five viable troop choices. Hormagaunts, Termagants, Genestealers, Warriors, Rippers.
grouchoben wrote: Speaking as someone who's taken 3x5 banshees to a tournament, I rate them quite highly in the right kind of list. Ditto Striking Scorpions. I think that people are sleeping on the impact of their exarch powers.
My Banshee Exarchs now *always* take piercing strike in an EC custom CWE detachment. Why? well, now your MSU Banshee squad has the teeth to punk characters, aggressors, cents and light vehicles: 2 S7 -3 D3 attacks, with a reroll to hit and wound is a lethal spike of damage and will often make up the unit's cost on its own.
Scorpion Exarchs have two variations for me: Biting Blade and Scorpion's Sting for a bargain unit that can occassionally spit mortal wounds on a backfield target, or Claw and Crushing Blow to drop some S10 attacks on something. Both are very well costed at 46 or 54pts respectively for an MSU harrasment unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As to the wider question of what will become of CWE, well, I'm actually of the opinion that they're one of the most enjoyable, powerful, wide rosters in the game. Whenever I go back to Imperium or Chaos lists I feel a bit cheated.
Speed, redeployment, excellent psychic phase, highly customisable cheap units, precise AT, good board control - what's not to like? Troops are a bit wafer thin, but we still have four viable options in the slot - how many armies can say the same?
Congrats for getting some good value out of them. I'm not familiar with EC, is that the Expert Crafted thing? And that's a Psychic awakening thing, too right? (I'm here as a marine player in support of old-school style Eldar.)
I'm also here as a Tyranid player, and they have . . . five viable troop choices. Hormagaunts, Termagants, Genestealers, Warriors, Rippers.
I just find something not quite right when the Exarch can deliver higher S blows than the Phoenix Lord. Also if the purpose of the Aspect Warrior squad itself becomes just a delivery system or ablative shield for the Exarch then I still think there is something wrong. The whole theme of the Eldar as a dying race is that there shouldn't be deliberate ablative Eldar shields (except possibly Wraith units).
Martel732 wrote: Eldar have never seemed like a dying race. Just sayin.
It's relative. Compared to the masses of humanity (I have estimated the upper limit of the Imperium's population based on known data is in the quadrillions), a few billion or hundred billion Eldar is nothing. The theme though is there. The Imperium doesn't really care about expending Guardsmen and thus also doesn't care about equipment that may injure or kill the user. The Eldar should care about losing any Eldar, so ablative chaff in any living Eldar form isn't in keeping with that theme.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/24 21:42:41
Expert Crafters is the Salamader thing when each unit gets to re-roll one hit and one wound per turn, due to a rules quirk its really good with the heavy support weapons that can be bought as units of 3 at list building but deploy as single units of 1, I suspect as a hedge against psykik buffs being to potent on units of 3, also smooths output lower shot/high str pewpew suspect itll go away come 9e codex because of the no fun for xenos law
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
grouchoben wrote: Speaking as someone who's taken 3x5 banshees to a tournament, I rate them quite highly in the right kind of list. Ditto Striking Scorpions. I think that people are sleeping on the impact of their exarch powers.
My Banshee Exarchs now *always* take piercing strike in an EC custom CWE detachment. Why? well, now your MSU Banshee squad has the teeth to punk characters, aggressors, cents and light vehicles: 2 S7 -3 D3 attacks, with a reroll to hit and wound is a lethal spike of damage and will often make up the unit's cost on its own.
Scorpion Exarchs have two variations for me: Biting Blade and Scorpion's Sting for a bargain unit that can occassionally spit mortal wounds on a backfield target, or Claw and Crushing Blow to drop some S10 attacks on something. Both are very well costed at 46 or 54pts respectively for an MSU harrasment unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As to the wider question of what will become of CWE, well, I'm actually of the opinion that they're one of the most enjoyable, powerful, wide rosters in the game. Whenever I go back to Imperium or Chaos lists I feel a bit cheated.
Speed, redeployment, excellent psychic phase, highly customisable cheap units, precise AT, good board control - what's not to like? Troops are a bit wafer thin, but we still have four viable options in the slot - how many armies can say the same?
Congrats for getting some good value out of them. I'm not familiar with EC, is that the Expert Crafted thing? And that's a Psychic awakening thing, too right? (I'm here as a marine player in support of old-school style Eldar.)
I'm also here as a Tyranid player, and they have . . . five viable troop choices. Hormagaunts, Termagants, Genestealers, Warriors, Rippers.
I just find something not quite right when the Exarch can deliver higher S blows than the Phoenix Lord. Also if the purpose of the Aspect Warrior squad itself becomes just a delivery system or ablative shield for the Exarch then I still think there is something wrong. The whole theme of the Eldar as a dying race is that there shouldn't be deliberate ablative Eldar shields (except possibly Wraith units).
I agree with that as well. While I'd like Exarchs to be strong I'd also like the squad members to be highly competent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/24 21:50:53
grouchoben wrote: Speaking as someone who's taken 3x5 banshees to a tournament, I rate them quite highly in the right kind of list. Ditto Striking Scorpions. I think that people are sleeping on the impact of their exarch powers.
My Banshee Exarchs now *always* take piercing strike in an EC custom CWE detachment. Why? well, now your MSU Banshee squad has the teeth to punk characters, aggressors, cents and light vehicles: 2 S7 -3 D3 attacks, with a reroll to hit and wound is a lethal spike of damage and will often make up the unit's cost on its own.
Scorpion Exarchs have two variations for me: Biting Blade and Scorpion's Sting for a bargain unit that can occassionally spit mortal wounds on a backfield target, or Claw and Crushing Blow to drop some S10 attacks on something. Both are very well costed at 46 or 54pts respectively for an MSU harrasment unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As to the wider question of what will become of CWE, well, I'm actually of the opinion that they're one of the most enjoyable, powerful, wide rosters in the game. Whenever I go back to Imperium or Chaos lists I feel a bit cheated.
Speed, redeployment, excellent psychic phase, highly customisable cheap units, precise AT, good board control - what's not to like? Troops are a bit wafer thin, but we still have four viable options in the slot - how many armies can say the same?
Congrats for getting some good value out of them. I'm not familiar with EC, is that the Expert Crafted thing? And that's a Psychic awakening thing, too right? (I'm here as a marine player in support of old-school style Eldar.)
I'm also here as a Tyranid player, and they have . . . five viable troop choices. Hormagaunts, Termagants, Genestealers, Warriors, Rippers.
I just find something not quite right when the Exarch can deliver higher S blows than the Phoenix Lord. Also if the purpose of the Aspect Warrior squad itself becomes just a delivery system or ablative shield for the Exarch then I still think there is something wrong. The whole theme of the Eldar as a dying race is that there shouldn't be deliberate ablative Eldar shields (except possibly Wraith units).
Bolter marines have always been ablative wounds for the special/heavy weapons guys. Heck in devastators even the sargeant is the first to go. Theres nothing wrong with that. Someone has to die first.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Bolter marines have always been ablative wounds for the special/heavy weapons guys. Heck in devastators even the sargeant is the first to go. Theres nothing wrong with that. Someone has to die first.
Disagree. The members of Aspect squads should be pretty competent themselves, esp. as this was their original design and legacy.
Also, the basic Bolter guy is pretty solid these days. With the ability so split fire and use of Doctrines, they're doing great. They sure seem to fare better than the Aspect Warriors that they used to be in the same league as.
Banshees should be worth more, and cost more, than Scouts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/24 22:03:56
Random thought, given a lot of the Exarch powers in PA book dont stretch to the squad, and its a lot of rules for effectively sergents were they also meant to apply to Autarch rules a tin foil theory too far ? You can even skip the no model issue by changing the existing entries with this model can pick from x,y,z aspect similar we saw later with the harlie hq roles rules ( my fluff-fu is still correct that they are too far gone to change off the warrior path ?)
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
Bolter marines have always been ablative wounds for the special/heavy weapons guys. Heck in devastators even the sargeant is the first to go. Theres nothing wrong with that. Someone has to die first.
Disagree. The members of Aspect squads should be pretty competent themselves, esp. as this was their original design and legacy.
Also, the basic Bolter guy is pretty solid these days. With the ability so split fire and use of Doctrines, they're doing great. They sure seem to fare better than the Aspect Warriors that they used to be in the same league as.
Banshees should be worth more, and cost more, than Scouts.
Why? Theres many more banshee on the universe than scouts.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Bolter marines have always been ablative wounds for the special/heavy weapons guys. Heck in devastators even the sargeant is the first to go. Theres nothing wrong with that. Someone has to die first.
Disagree. The members of Aspect squads should be pretty competent themselves, esp. as this was their original design and legacy.
Also, the basic Bolter guy is pretty solid these days. With the ability so split fire and use of Doctrines, they're doing great. They sure seem to fare better than the Aspect Warriors that they used to be in the same league as.
Banshees should be worth more, and cost more, than Scouts.
Why? Theres many more banshee on the universe than scouts.
That doesn't have any bearing on anything.
There are FAR more Tyranid Warriors than Space Marines. Magnitudes more. That doesn't mean they have to be worse.
Bolter marines have always been ablative wounds for the special/heavy weapons guys. Heck in devastators even the sargeant is the first to go. Theres nothing wrong with that. Someone has to die first.
Disagree. The members of Aspect squads should be pretty competent themselves, esp. as this was their original design and legacy.
Also, the basic Bolter guy is pretty solid these days. With the ability so split fire and use of Doctrines, they're doing great. They sure seem to fare better than the Aspect Warriors that they used to be in the same league as.
Banshees should be worth more, and cost more, than Scouts.
Why? Theres many more banshee on the universe than scouts.
Unlikely to be true, but even if it is, so what?
The lore of aspect warriors is they are the epitome of their particular way of waging war. They're all supposed to be highly specialized elites who are the exemplars of a particular way of fighting, evolved over countless aeons by a race of borderline psychopathic perfectionists with lifespans and aptitudes far beyond the average human.
And then on the tabletop they're mostly bargain basement trash that gets absolutely dunked on by any actual combat specialists.
It just doesn't match up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/24 22:33:34
Martel732 wrote: Eldar have never seemed like a dying race. Just sayin.
Maybe it's the way they use their civilians as cannon-fodder?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Eldar- 4436 pts
