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 Insectum7 wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
HBMC with a nice graphic illustrating the point:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Join the Imperium!

Spoiler:

That's just shameful.

But also misleading and cherry picked though.

Swooping Hawks is per model in the target unit. The Skystalker unit is per model in their unit. So a single hawk can literally drop 20 dice on 20 models and score on 5s. They can also drop their bombs straight from deepstrike 12" away.

Eradicators are potentially 120 points. Crack shot is also disregarded even though it isn't huge as well as their run and shoot without penalty.

And while the fluff for Asurmen is silly he's close to the same result.

 grouchoben wrote:
"Your math is just WRONG."

Yeah you're right, I'd left some fields filled in 40k.ghostlords for some of my calculations, apologies.

But are you denying that the scorps do more damage overall? And are you willing to chat, or concede the point, without going all lockcaps on me?

Mortal wounds: Hawks MW: 1.66 vs Scorps MW: 3.33
Hawks shooting: 2.67+0.59 vs Scorps shooting: 1.67
Hawks CC: 0.81 vs Scorps CC 2+1.33

Hawks = 5.73
Scorps = 8.33

136 Points-two squads of Swooping Hawks with the 5+ Grenade Pack power and Hawk's Talon on the Exarch.

vs.

10 Striking Scorpions with the Exarch having a Biting Blade and the 5+ Mandiblaster Power, plus an assisting Warlock to cast the +2 Charge power.

Both are up against a squad or two of Intercessors.

Swooping Hawks:
Land and deal 10/3 Mortal Wounds on average.
Shoot, and deal...
32 S3 Shots
64/3 hits
64/9 wounds
64/27 failed saves
Plus...
8 S5 shots
16/3 hits
32/9 wounds
32/27 failed saves
For a total of 96/27, 32/9, or 3.56 damage
Plus the 10/3 or 3.33 mortal wounds, they deal 6.89 damage total, without having to charge.

Striking Scorpions
Shoot and deal...
10 S4 shots, AP-3 on 6s to wound
20/3 hits
20/9 AP0 and 10/9 AP-3
20/27 plus 25/27 failed saves
For a total of 45/27, 5/3, or 1.67 damage
Then, they charge. Assuming they make it in without taking any losses to Overwatch and all can make it into fighting range, they get...
10/3 Mortal Wounds from Mandiblasters, and...
18 S4 attacks
12 hits
6 wounds
2 failed saves
Plus...
3 S5 AP-2 D2 attacks
2 hits
4/3 wounds
2/3 failed saves
4/3 damage
For a total of 3.33 damage
Total damage is 20/3, or 6.67, plus the shooting, for 8.33 damage overall

They are marginally better. But they cannot split fire like the Hawks can, they are one squad which means they can get Auspex Scanned to oblivion, they have to make the charge, they have to avoid wounds to Overwatch, and you have to get the Warlock to within 6" of them to make the charge any kind of reliable, which isn't always gonna happen.

Plus, if we add the Hawk's melee, that nets them an extra .89 damage, for a total of 7.78.

Even without that, you're doing about 20% more damage, but with less reliability, less ability to pick your targets, more vulnerability...

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
HBMC with a nice graphic illustrating the point:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Join the Imperium!

Spoiler:

That's just shameful.

But also misleading and cherry picked though.

Swooping Hawks is per model in the target unit. The Skystalker unit is per model in their unit. So a single hawk can literally drop 20 dice on 20 models and score on 5s. They can also drop their bombs straight from deepstrike 12" away.

Eradicators are potentially 120 points. Crack shot is also disregarded even though it isn't huge as well as their run and shoot without penalty.

And while the fluff for Asurmen is silly he's close to the same result.

Up to the maximum of one die per hawk. That's the rule. So no, one Hawk can not damage 20 enemies.

True on the using it from deepstrike though.

PenitentJake wrote:


Up to the maximum of one die per hawk. That's the rule. So no, one Hawk can not damage 20 enemies.

True on the using it from deepstrike though.

My mistake.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Hellebore wrote:
HBMC with a nice graphic illustrating the point:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Join the Imperium!

That's just shameful.

But also misleading and cherry picked though.

Swooping Hawks is per model in the target unit. The Skystalker unit is per model in their unit. So a single hawk can literally drop 20 dice on 20 models and score on 5s. They can also drop their bombs straight from deepstrike 12" away.

Eradicators are potentially 120 points. Crack shot is also disregarded even though it isn't huge as well as their run and shoot without penalty.

And while the fluff for Asurmen is silly he's close to the same result.

The substance remains shameful. The Imperial unit hits with their grenades on a 5+ instead of the Hawks 6+. The Imperial unit gets a bonus against vehicles, the Hawks don't. The Imperial unit can hit a vehicle multiple times while the Hawks cannot.

And, as pointed out above, you did not read it correctly. A single Hawk cannot roll 20 dice against 20 models.

And even if they were equal abilities, it's another example of the Imperium getting something that was traditionally the realm of Xenos.

True enough, JNA. I can't really be bothered with this anymore brother. But just to point out that if we go 2x5 then scorps' damage output goes up too, and if the hawks get to do damage in CC, I don't see why Scorps are paying a 45pt tax for a warlock in this example, while the hawks don't. Take that away and the numbers skew harder for Scorps. But what you're saying is all true enough.

The reason I went 10 man scorp and 2X5 Hawks is that the Scorps get a one-unit buff. The Hawks don’t.

And it’s WITHOUT CC that hawks do only about 20% less, but way more reliably.

I might actually kind of be coming around on scorpions, actually. I haven't played with them much post-PA, but some of the options they gained access to are pretty handy. Upping their mandiblasters to a 5+ does increase their damage a little (though it's still weird that mandis are more efficient against expensive elite infantry). The one that lets you get a -1 to hit while in cover can make them a decently cheap and durable screen or objective holder, though capping to-hit penalties makes that less useful.

It still bugs me that scorpions are basically assault marines with with worse mobility and fewer attacks (and assault marines aren't combat monsters themselves), but scorpions probably *do* have a place in casual lists right now.

Truthfully, Dire Avenger should have 2 attacks as the ''generalist'' base aspect that they are. But the better overwatch is a nice trade off, I suppose! In an edition or two ago you had the choice of the overwatch or an counter-charge attack. Overwatch all day.

Banshees and Scorpions should have an extra attack also.

Dragons' Meltabombs aggravate me to no end. It made sense when they could use them in melee vs vehicles. As it is, they are just wargear that we pay for and never use.

Hawks could use an update to hit with their grenades as well as the imperium versions can.

Haywire needs some sort of special rule in unit or two outside of a stratagem.

Spiders.... Need a look. It was their move-shoot-move that gave them any real identity other than just being fast with S6 rending guns. Jetbikes can do that from a safe distance with reliable speed now. It's another unit that should be given a rule that currently exists as a stratagem.

Shining Spears/ Crimson Hunters/ Dark Reapers are honestly about where they need to be, rules wise.

The Avatar needs Greater Daemon treatment and/or a huge aura buff.

Phoenix Lords should be able to get warlord traits. (among other buffs)

Guide evidently needs to be an aura, apparently.

---------

I don't mind point increases with unit buffs. I just don't think Eldar elites should 9 pts each with minimal impact or 22 pts for a weaker equivolent of an imperial unit.

I do miss my 16 pt Fire Dragons when I make a list these days. Sure, since then they have gained a rule or two and a better save. (not that the save means as much) But 22 points for a model that is almost definitely going to die immediately afterward is a punch in the gut.

I liked Asurmen having multiple Warlord Traits. I thought that was a really good bit of fluffy traits.

I'm a bit confused - which stratagem do you think should be a Spider rule?

Goobi2 wrote:
Truthfully, Dire Avenger should have 2 attacks as the ''generalist'' base aspect that they are. But the better overwatch is a nice trade off, I suppose! In an edition or two ago you had the choice of the overwatch or an counter-charge attack. Overwatch all day.

Banshees and Scorpions should have an extra attack also.

Dragons' Meltabombs aggravate me to no end. It made sense when they could use them in melee vs vehicles. As it is, they are just wargear that we pay for and never use.

Hawks could use an update to hit with their grenades as well as the imperium versions can.

Haywire needs some sort of special rule in unit or two outside of a stratagem.

Spiders.... Need a look. It was their move-shoot-move that gave them any real identity other than just being fast with S6 rending guns. Jetbikes can do that from a safe distance with reliable speed now. It's another unit that should be given a rule that currently exists as a stratagem.

Shining Spears/ Crimson Hunters/ Dark Reapers are honestly about where they need to be, rules wise.

The Avatar needs Greater Daemon treatment and/or a huge aura buff.

Phoenix Lords should be able to get warlord traits. (among other buffs)

Guide evidently needs to be an aura, apparently.

---------

I don't mind point increases with unit buffs. I just don't think Eldar elites should 9 pts each with minimal impact or 22 pts for a weaker equivolent of an imperial unit.

I do miss my 16 pt Fire Dragons when I make a list these days. Sure, since then they have gained a rule or two and a better save. (not that the save means as much) But 22 points for a model that is almost definitely going to die immediately afterward is a punch in the gut.

I disagree on some points.

Banshees i dont think need more attacks, they need either something like +1 to wound rolls, S5 weapons, +2 strength on the charge, re-roll wounds, any of those and they would be in a much better spot. more attacks just push towards chaff clearing than elite killing

Scorpians definatelyi need more atttacks, my suggestion would be change mandiblasters to be a 2 addtional attack weaopn thats S4 either ap0/-1, and give them effectively 5 attacks total.

Hawks definately got power creeped by the mechanicus version and could use adjustments, even if it was all hawks could drop grenades on a single model would at least be a start.

All the aspects are so out of date, they went from the exclusive all our models are armed with a unique special weapon to, hey marines sole our idea but they also have better weaopns and some even have weaopn options!. they could go a long way if they either let the basic members use exotic equipment, or even if they went the wych rout and let some members take special equipment. but at least fusion guns are s8 and not s6 anymore.

 warmaster21 wrote:


Banshees i dont think need more attacks, they need either something like +1 to wound rolls, S5 weapons, +2 strength on the charge, re-roll wounds, any of those and they would be in a much better spot. more attacks just push towards chaff clearing than elite killing

I agree that it should be something other than just more attacks. Since 2nd edition it was also about Banshees being devastating shock troops when successfully landing the charge compared to the general melee endurance of Scorpions, another possibility for reform would be to make the Banshees' masks do something like a weaker version of the Exarch power which does d3 MW on 4+ when charging. Like maybe 1 MW on 4+ when charging.

Iracundus wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:


Banshees i dont think need more attacks, they need either something like +1 to wound rolls, S5 weapons, +2 strength on the charge, re-roll wounds, any of those and they would be in a much better spot. more attacks just push towards chaff clearing than elite killing

I agree that it should be something other than just more attacks. Since 2nd edition it was also about landing the charge compared to the general melee endurance of Scorpions, another possibility for reform would be to make the Banshees' masks do something like a weaker version of the Exarch power which does d3 MW on 4+ when charging. Like maybe 1 MW on 4+ when charging.

I agree the banshee mask could use some love, the change to overwatch denial was cute but with the overwatch changes not nearly as needed. DE in psychic awakening had a few alternate abilities that gave MW on charges, would be an easy port to banshees for the banshee masks. they could do something like -1 toughness on a charge, really anything else than what they do now.

making them all or nothign on charging and being obliterated during a counter charge would be a decent change to really diferentiate them from scorpians.

 warmaster21 wrote:

I agree the banshee mask could use some love, the change to overwatch denial was cute but with the overwatch changes not nearly as needed. DE in psychic awakening had a few alternate abilities that gave MW on charges, would be an easy port to banshees for the banshee masks. they could do something like -1 toughness on a charge, really anything else than what they do now.

You could give them Meticulous Flayers, an obsession that PA 'hilarously' gave to Kabalites; re-roll charges, and 6s to hit automatically wound vs non vehicle/titanic.

 harlokin wrote:


You could give them Meticulous Flayers, an obsession that PA 'hilarously' gave to Kabalites; re-roll charges, and 6s to hit automatically wound vs non vehicle/titanic.

haha...god that book was atrocious... but DE still made it off better (even though i shleved my army) than what my sisters are getting in psychic awakening...


I dont even know what to do with warp spiders, they were great in 3rd when they could teleport behind a tank and shred it with their S6 weapons, and s6 was just great back then. maybe if they could all have the forarm mounted powerblades, i dont think they should get much play around cover, that seems more of what a striking scorpian should do, unless they want warp spiders to be a more defensive unit to get better terrain bonuses.. though i guess they could change it up a bit and make striking scorpian the shock infantry and spiders the defensive infantry but idk... aspects really need work.

 harlokin wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:

I agree the banshee mask could use some love, the change to overwatch denial was cute but with the overwatch changes not nearly as needed. DE in psychic awakening had a few alternate abilities that gave MW on charges, would be an easy port to banshees for the banshee masks. they could do something like -1 toughness on a charge, really anything else than what they do now.

You could give them Meticulous Flayers, an obsession that PA 'hilarously' gave to Kabalites; re-roll charges, and 6s to hit automatically wound vs non vehicle/titanic.

do you not run your kabalites into melee everygame? After all, the Sybarite has options for melee weapons, clearly that's how everyone plays them, not as the shooty third of the codex


/S

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:

I agree the banshee mask could use some love, the change to overwatch denial was cute but with the overwatch changes not nearly as needed. DE in psychic awakening had a few alternate abilities that gave MW on charges, would be an easy port to banshees for the banshee masks. they could do something like -1 toughness on a charge, really anything else than what they do now.

You could give them Meticulous Flayers, an obsession that PA 'hilarously' gave to Kabalites; re-roll charges, and 6s to hit automatically wound vs non vehicle/titanic.

do you not run your kabalites into melee everygame? After all, the Sybarite has options for melee weapons, clearly that's how everyone plays them, not as the shooty third of the codex


/S

What else would I use for melee? The gladiators? The durable monsters? Ha.

pm713 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:

I agree the banshee mask could use some love, the change to overwatch denial was cute but with the overwatch changes not nearly as needed. DE in psychic awakening had a few alternate abilities that gave MW on charges, would be an easy port to banshees for the banshee masks. they could do something like -1 toughness on a charge, really anything else than what they do now.

You could give them Meticulous Flayers, an obsession that PA 'hilarously' gave to Kabalites; re-roll charges, and 6s to hit automatically wound vs non vehicle/titanic.

do you not run your kabalites into melee everygame? After all, the Sybarite has options for melee weapons, clearly that's how everyone plays them, not as the shooty third of the codex


/S

What else would I use for melee? The gladiators? The durable monsters? Ha.

If we had a CCW/Pistol kabalite i might even do it lol, bring back trueborn give them melee options! go on a safari and bag us some choice slaves. While flying transport spam is certainly a way to play cabals... its certainly boring after awhile. What ever happened to all of our cool lore based exotic wargear and weapons.... bring back the clonefield!

 warmaster21 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:

I agree the banshee mask could use some love, the change to overwatch denial was cute but with the overwatch changes not nearly as needed. DE in psychic awakening had a few alternate abilities that gave MW on charges, would be an easy port to banshees for the banshee masks. they could do something like -1 toughness on a charge, really anything else than what they do now.

You could give them Meticulous Flayers, an obsession that PA 'hilarously' gave to Kabalites; re-roll charges, and 6s to hit automatically wound vs non vehicle/titanic.

do you not run your kabalites into melee everygame? After all, the Sybarite has options for melee weapons, clearly that's how everyone plays them, not as the shooty third of the codex


/S

What else would I use for melee? The gladiators? The durable monsters? Ha.

If we had a CCW/Pistol kabalite i might even do it lol, bring back trueborn give them melee options! go on a safari and bag us some choice slaves. While flying transport spam is certainly a way to play cabals... its certainly boring after awhile. What ever happened to all of our cool lore based exotic wargear and weapons.... bring back the clonefield!

That's what puts me off starting DE. Every time I look into it I realise I basically take the same few units and copy them until I have the points needed. It's so boring and anything with customisation like trueborn or bloodbrides would fix it.

But thank the Emperor I can take a hundred different kinds of Primaris, a worthy place for GW to put all their effort.

pm713 wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:

I agree the banshee mask could use some love, the change to overwatch denial was cute but with the overwatch changes not nearly as needed. DE in psychic awakening had a few alternate abilities that gave MW on charges, would be an easy port to banshees for the banshee masks. they could do something like -1 toughness on a charge, really anything else than what they do now.

You could give them Meticulous Flayers, an obsession that PA 'hilarously' gave to Kabalites; re-roll charges, and 6s to hit automatically wound vs non vehicle/titanic.

do you not run your kabalites into melee everygame? After all, the Sybarite has options for melee weapons, clearly that's how everyone plays them, not as the shooty third of the codex


/S

What else would I use for melee? The gladiators? The durable monsters? Ha.

If we had a CCW/Pistol kabalite i might even do it lol, bring back trueborn give them melee options! go on a safari and bag us some choice slaves. While flying transport spam is certainly a way to play cabals... its certainly boring after awhile. What ever happened to all of our cool lore based exotic wargear and weapons.... bring back the clonefield!

That's what puts me off starting DE. Every time I look into it I realise I basically take the same few units and copy them until I have the points needed. It's so boring and anything with customisation like trueborn or bloodbrides would fix it.

But thank the Emperor I can take a hundred different kinds of Primaris, a worthy place for GW to put all their effort.

dunno about worthy but certainly with greater dividends for them.

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:

I agree the banshee mask could use some love, the change to overwatch denial was cute but with the overwatch changes not nearly as needed. DE in psychic awakening had a few alternate abilities that gave MW on charges, would be an easy port to banshees for the banshee masks. they could do something like -1 toughness on a charge, really anything else than what they do now.

You could give them Meticulous Flayers, an obsession that PA 'hilarously' gave to Kabalites; re-roll charges, and 6s to hit automatically wound vs non vehicle/titanic.

do you not run your kabalites into melee everygame? After all, the Sybarite has options for melee weapons, clearly that's how everyone plays them, not as the shooty third of the codex


/S

What else would I use for melee? The gladiators? The durable monsters? Ha.

If we had a CCW/Pistol kabalite i might even do it lol, bring back trueborn give them melee options! go on a safari and bag us some choice slaves. While flying transport spam is certainly a way to play cabals... its certainly boring after awhile. What ever happened to all of our cool lore based exotic wargear and weapons.... bring back the clonefield!

That's what puts me off starting DE. Every time I look into it I realise I basically take the same few units and copy them until I have the points needed. It's so boring and anything with customisation like trueborn or bloodbrides would fix it.

But thank the Emperor I can take a hundred different kinds of Primaris, a worthy place for GW to put all their effort.

dunno about worthy but certainly with greater dividends for them.

It's short sighted dividends though. Marine players can only fight other marines for so long before they get bored of 'training exercises' between chapters....




With regards to the army, this is what I think:

Battle Focus: All eldar get X special rule that makes them more survivable (take your pick between an invuln, extra wound, harder to hit etc). Wraith units don't get this.


Guardians: 24" range catapults, option to take lasblasters (assault 4 ap0). Come in squads of 5-10 and can take a heavy weapon per 5.


Avengers: 18" Assault 3 guns (they are the ones that SHOULD be in closer), +1 Attack. Always overwatch (never need CP for them) and negative to hit in melee when charged

Scorpions: S+1 Ap-1 +1 attack chainswords (3 atttacks total). Mandiblasters (2 attacks each auto strike first every round, AP0 poison 4+ against infantry, 6+ against vehicles and monsters), always count as being 12" further away from shooting attackers, ignore terrain

Banshees: S+2 D2 powerswords (yes), normal attacks (elite killers), Banshee mask (no overwatch, enemy can only hit on 6+ if charged(yes)), Charge is 3D6" (yes)

Fire dragons:Fusion gun assault 1 18" S10 Ap-4 D6 (yes - superior tech but shorter more focused), firepike (assault2 24" S10 Ap-4 D3+1d3), burning fury (6++ ignore damage), fusion bombs (may make 1 attack per unit as per grenades, even in melee). Assured destruction - re-roll 1s to hit. 6s to hit do max damage (yes).

Spiders: deathspinner (12" auto hit d6 S6 - they used to be heavy flamers) - phase step (if they make a second jump they can only be hit on 6+), second jump (charge phase, 2d6" in any direction, on a double lose a model). 2 attacks each from the extra limb harness.

Hawks: Hawk Lasblasters (same, ap-1), grendade harness (4+ mortal wounds - on a deep strike target takes 1d6 additional on 4+). swooping strike - on the charge they get +2 attacks at +1 strength.


schools of the shrines: pick a different school for each squad, this grants a special ability (like infiltrate for scorpions, or cloud jump for hawks. 3 per aspect to give them variety of focus)


Aspect squad leaders: proto exarchs, just on the path. Get 1 exarch power.

HQ - for every 2 aspect squads of a specific shrine you can take a shrine exarch
Shrine Exarch: 2+2+445493+
choose a shrine: 2 exarch powers
Choose from relic wargear

Khaine's fury manifest: 4+ invulnerable. Aspects of same shrine can use 1 of the exarch's powers if within 6".

 Hellebore wrote:

With regards to the army, this is what I think:

Battle Focus: All eldar get X special rule that makes them more survivable (take your pick between an invuln, extra wound, harder to hit etc). Wraith units don't get this.

I like this. Something I pitched a while back was to have battle focus impose a -1 to hit if the unit advances (instead of letting them ignore the advance and shoot penalty). It's kind of niche to need d6" to get in range of a thing, and if you do need those d6" to shoot at something, you're possibly making any charge rolls harder to pull off.

Guardians: 24" range catapults, option to take lasblasters (assault 4 ap0). Come in squads of 5-10 and can take a heavy weapon per 5.

Haven't run the numbers, but I worry that giving catapults and lasblasters the same range will result in one being clearly preferable to the other in most situations. Or, if they perform almost identically against most targets, then it throws the necessity of the second gun into question. I say give them lasblasters, but leave shuriken catapults unchanged. My guardians see use as-is. If you want a deepstriking sucker punch, you go shurikens. If you want to keep your distance, you'd go lasblasters.

Avengers: 18" Assault 3 guns (they are the ones that SHOULD be in closer), +1 Attack. Always overwatch (never need CP for them) and negative to hit in melee when charged

Like the general direction you're going. I'd probably leave their catapults as-is but make assault 3 catapults a shrine power option. That would compete with the current BladeStorm; maybe it should replace it?

Always overwatching isn't very impressive (especially if it's on a 6+ instead of a 5+), so I'd be tempted to make this a shrine power too and possibly go so far as to make it full BS overwatch (as avenger shooting isn't all that impressive). Alternatively, maybe let them always overwatch for free but also create an avengers-specific strat that lets them overwatch better?

Negative to-hit in melee is already the Defend exarch power, and it should definitely stick around in some form. Not sure about the extra Attack. I get it from a fluff perspective, but an extra strength 3 AP 0 D1 attack isn't worth much. I'd be tempted to remain at A1 if the extra attack was going to cost any points. The exarch woudl appreciate it, I suppose.

Scorpions: S+1 Ap-1 +1 attack chainswords (3 atttacks total). Mandiblasters (2 attacks each auto strike first every round, AP0 poison 4+ against infantry, 6+ against vehicles and monsters), always count as being 12" further away from shooting attackers, ignore terrain

Lots to like here. People always seem to want to give mandiblasters the poison rule, but I feel like just making them strength 4 would help them be anti-horde and avoid stepping on banshees' anti-elite toes.

I'd scrap the "12 inches furhter away" part; it makes them untargetable by lots of guns (mostly pistols), and they already have the exarch power that makes them harder to hit while in terrain that is similar in spirit. I guess with the changes to 9th, you could maybe allow them to be untargetable while inside obscuring terrain instead of only when on the other side of it? Not sure what you mean by the "ignore terrain" part.

Banshees: S+2 D2 powerswords (yes), normal attacks (elite killers), Banshee mask (no overwatch, enemy can only hit on 6+ if charged(yes)), Charge is 3D6" (yes)

I'd be okay with most of this. Saying their power swords are just that much better than normal power swords seems fluffy and lets them actually be good at their intended job. The "only hit on 6+" part seems pretty un-fun to face off against. Sure, you can just counter charge or shoot them on the following turn, but making them semi-invulnerable to the 20+ ork boyz they didn't kill for a turn is pushing it for me. This rule would probably push their points cost up by quite a bit too. Which, in the spirit of making them more "elite", I'm fine with, but we wouldn't want to make them so expensive that they stop being playable.

3d6" charge is probably fine, but it weirdly makes them better at charging out of deepstrike than scorpions. I actually kind of like having a reason to advance the banshees every turn. I wouldn't mind leaving Acrobatic as-is.

Fire dragons:Fusion gun assault 1 18" S10 Ap-4 D6 (yes - superior tech but shorter more focused), firepike (assault2 24" S10 Ap-4 D3+1d3), burning fury (6++ ignore damage), fusion bombs (may make 1 attack per unit as per grenades, even in melee). Assured destruction - re-roll 1s to hit. 6s to hit do max damage (yes).

Kind of kitchen-sinky. Lots of t hose rules would probably work well as a shrine/exarch power. Strength 10, 18" fusion guns seem reasonable to me. Per the melta discussion in Proposed Rules, it may even be justifiable to go as high as Strength 14 or 16 on melta given their recent unpopularity. The firepike doesn't scream "assault 2" to me, but it does look mechanically useful. I'd probably make burning fury into a shrine power. Fusion bombs look good.

Not a fan of having to track separate dice pools for assured destruction. I also don't hate how assured destruction works as-is.

Spiders: deathspinner (12" auto hit d6 S6 - they used to be heavy flamers) - phase step (if they make a second jump they can only be hit on 6+), second jump (charge phase, 2d6" in any direction, on a double lose a model). 2 attacks each from the extra limb harness.

Also kind of kitchen-sinky. Making them a gnarly flamer unit again is probably fine (with the right points cost). Are you removing their monofilament rule?

Phase step looks pretty unfun to face. Their easy access to -1 to hit is actually pretty good as-is. Rather than adding extra rolling for the second jump, I think I'd be tempted to basically give them the equivalent of Fire and Fade. It would be more reliable with a shorter max range and would force them use terrain to hide properly; all of which seems appropriate to me. Plus, you'd resolve it immediately after shooting and with less dice rolling.

Extra strength 3 attacks from the limb harness feel like they confuse the unit's role and wouldn't really improve its performance much. If you want to make this a buff tied to Power Blades, fine, but I don't love it on normal sp iders.

Just to toss out an alternative I've been considering: what about backing off on the buffs to the spiders' offense but letting them prevent a unit from falling back to represent their monofilament tangling and slicing up anyone that moves too abruptly? Something like...

"If all models in this unit shoot at the same infantry, bike, or beast target, the target unit may not Fall Back in the following movement phase unless it uses the Emergency Breakout stratagem." (Or whatever that new strat is called.)

This would bring back some of the old craftworlder synergy, with spiders making it easier for your melee units to hide in melee. The spiders themselves may want to charge in and hide in melee too at that point, giving the exarch's Power Blades more of a purpose.

Also, it might be good to give spiders a way to fall back and shoot in 9th.

Hawks: Hawk Lasblasters (same, ap-1), grendade harness (4+ mortal wounds - on a deep strike target takes 1d6 additional on 4+). swooping strike - on the charge they get +2 attacks at +1 strength.

I've never really felt my lasblasters needed more AP. The sheer number of low-strength shots is just fun to roll as-is. Not a game breaker though.

Don't care for Swooping Strike. Hawks really aren't a melee unit. I wouldn't want to move further away from being "specialized," and I just don't see my fragile hawks turning into melee battering rams. If you want to give t hem a melee buff, maybe give the exarch a power similar to Baharroth's sword? Basically, if he hits anyone with an attack, they're at -1 to hit for the rest of the turn. So a sunrifle + blinding blade hawkxarch could potentially impose multiple -1 to hit penalties for your own fight phase, adding synergy between his shooty squad and your melee units.

The grenades as you've presented them ups their lethality against all targets equally which means they're extra effective against heavily armored targets but no more effective against ligihtly-armored hordes. Which is the opposite of how the grenades have worked in the past. Also, I will say that the mortals on a 5+ thing with the PA exarch power has proven pretty lethal in my recent games. Maybe switch the grenade pack back into a blast weapon like it used to be? Strength4, AP0, D1, D6 auto hits, blast, and up it to 2d6 autohits if the hawk squad contains 6+ models? Maybe add a shrine power for haywire grenades that does d3 mortals to a tank (2d3 for 6+ hawks) and gives them a -1 to hit until the start of your next turn (representing haywire's old role as a stun lock weapon).

schools of the shrines: pick a different school for each squad, this grants a special ability (like infiltrate for scorpions, or cloud jump for hawks. 3 per aspect to give them variety of focus)

I like this.

Aspect squad leaders: proto exarchs, just on the path. Get 1 exarch power.

So as-is but with different fluff? Sure. I wouldn't feel compelled to change the fluff though.

HQ - for every 2 aspect squads of a specific shrine you can take a shrine exarch
Shrine Exarch: 2+2+445493+
choose a shrine: 2 exarch powers
Choose from relic wargear

Khaine's fury manifest: 4+ invulnerable. Aspects of same shrine can use 1 of the exarch's powers if within 6".

Seems a little clunky. If you want character exarchs, fine. Rather than having to design all exarch powers as being balanced both on a single model and on an entire squad, just break up the exarch power list into "squad" and "solo" powers, and only let exarchs take one selection from each list max. This would also work for squad exarchs that want to spend CP to take a second power.

I will note that the Shrine Exarch concept and the 4+ invuln especially feel a little unfleshed out. Hawk and Spear exarchs, for instance, should have higher movement stats, but wings aren't currently a piece of wargear iirc. That 4+ invul save is going to have less value on an avenger or spear exarch (who already potentially has it) than on a banshee exarch.

Also, character exarchs in general probably demand Phoenix Lord overhauls, which I wouldn't object to.

Hellebore, something you may not have considered:

Do you really WANT to make Eldar as broken as Marines are shaping up to be? Wouldn't it be better to tone down the top end, rather than bring everybody up to that insane level of lethality?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Hellebore, something you may not have considered:

Do you really WANT to make Eldar as broken as Marines are shaping up to be? Wouldn't it be better to tone down the top end, rather than bring everybody up to that insane level of lethality?

Yes, it would be better if Primaris had never existed. But we all know that isn't going to happen.

This is what happens when you inflate things by releasing a new faction (or a new variant of the faction) that blows everything else in the water. You have to go back and fix the old stuff that was supposed to be powerful to be powerful based on the new standard.

It's unfortunate, but it's too late to do anything else at this point, especially with them doubling down on Primaris in 9th.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Hellebore, something you may not have considered:

Do you really WANT to make Eldar as broken as Marines are shaping up to be? Wouldn't it be better to tone down the top end, rather than bring everybody up to that insane level of lethality?

I don't think that's what most peoole are asking for. I think most are asking for Aspects to be better, but also pay appropriate points for it.

Personally, I think my ideal would be for primaris to be different from but not superior to mini-marines and for aspect warriors to be similar in price and power to their marine counterparts.

Well, my *ideal* would be for "primaris" to be a type of armor instead of a new type of marine, but that bridge is smoking behind us at this point.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Hellebore, something you may not have considered:

Do you really WANT to make Eldar as broken as Marines are shaping up to be? Wouldn't it be better to tone down the top end, rather than bring everybody up to that insane level of lethality?

Totally but not specific to primaris - I'd do the whole game.


However we know from experience that GW don't do that very often. So the most realistic thing is to chase the genie now it's out of the bottle