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IT started with primaris, maybe even before, and now we have inquisition models released with dragon familiars and alien weapons and a harlequin inquisitor????

That’s stuff would have got you killed on the spot and you planet nuked in the not so long ago days. But it really feels like GW are slowly ushering the “humans” into an Age of Enlightenment where they don’t want to kill all xenos and new things are not perceived as which craft. Much more commercially viable I expect.

I think I read that GWs biggest market is now North America so I wonder if changes like this are designed to appeal to that market.
   
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Those 2 models are new but the characters are quite old.

Inquisitors tend to have more freedom of action compared to... pretty much everyone else.
   
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Spoletta wrote:
Those 2 models are new but the characters are quite old.

Inquisitors tend to have more freedom of action compared to... pretty much everyone else.


But isn’t that ridiculous as they are the ones that go around burned planets for heresy?
   
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Radicals using xenos and daemonic weapons is age old concept. Also reason why more puritanical Inquisitors strongly disagree with them and can even flat out hunt them if they suspect other has gone too far.

Xenos weapon is mild compared to summoning daemon and binding it to your weapon where it will then boost weapons power but of course risks(and eventually will) corrupting wielder or even escape and cause destruction.

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mrFickle wrote:
IT started with primaris, maybe even before, and now we have inquisition models released with dragon familiars and alien weapons and a harlequin inquisitor????

That’s stuff would have got you killed on the spot and you planet nuked in the not so long ago days. But it really feels like GW are slowly ushering the “humans” into an Age of Enlightenment where they don’t want to kill all xenos and new things are not perceived as which craft. Much more commercially viable I expect.

I think I read that GWs biggest market is now North America so I wonder if changes like this are designed to appeal to that market.


There are Primaris with xenos pets?

Radical Inquisitors have always been a thing.

I don't agree that this is GW changing anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/25 10:00:49


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Its more a call back to the RT era, a slightly more all sorts of everything galaxy based on imo better mythos' than the erratic quality of gw's own fluff

Also hypocrisy is central to the iom so using xenos relics is fine, although strange she stole a good eldar relic as most of the CWE ones are fup awful

as for big spacemans committing the usual unpleasentness with bigger toys isnt really progress

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/25 09:39:39


"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
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I'm also expecting a big turn to the worse wirh Primaris.

Remember that AoS started like that too, with these big Sigmarines entering the story out of nowhere and spreading order left and right, paladins and noblebright in every single cell of them.

Now they have become one of the most grim elements in the setting. A lot of them are now Arthas-like in the way they purge chaos.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/25 10:14:27


 
   
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mrFickle wrote:IT started with primaris, maybe even before, and now we have inquisition models released with dragon familiars and alien weapons and a harlequin inquisitor????

That’s stuff would have got you killed on the spot and you planet nuked in the not so long ago days.
I mean, you're wrong.

Stern and her Harlequin companion (not Inquisitor) have existed in the lore for decades, so definitely not a new thing there.

Inquisitors aren't a unified bunch, and never have been. You have a variety of Inquisitorial factions, so much so that oftentimes, Inquisitors will go to war with other Inquisitors over it. Puritan Inquisitors, the ones who are all "I carry and massive warhammer and power armour and smite the unclean and Exterminatus every planet I see", aren't the only type. You have plenty of Radicals, ones who use things like stolen Necron gear, Daemonhosts, daemon weapons, Tesseract Labyrinths, Kroot mercenaries, wraithbone psychic amplifiers, etc etc. These are the kinds of Inquisitors who use the enemy's tech against them - and this definitely does bring them into conflict with the more hardline and fundamentalist Puritans.

This has been a thing pretty much since Inquisitors were a thing.
But it really feels like GW are slowly ushering the “humans” into an Age of Enlightenment where they don’t want to kill all xenos and new things are not perceived as which craft. Much more commercially viable I expect.
A few handfuls of people (Guilliman, pretty much) are more "enlightened", but the Imperium is still the same old hyperfundamentalist xenophobic religiously devout totalitarian/feudal regime. A few Inquisitors running around with some alien/Chaos tech doesn't change that, just like it didn't change it in the past.

There's been plenty of cases in 40k's history where humans and aliens have even made shaky alliances, long before there was a twinkling of resurrection in Guilliman's eye (Malybede, Rynn's World, 13th Black Crusade, the second Gaunt's Ghosts novel, to name but a few).
I think I read that GWs biggest market is now North America so I wonder if changes like this are designed to appeal to that market.
I don't know if the US market has overtaken the British one (perhaps it has, purely on scale), but no, there have been no "changes". These things have always existed.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
mrFickle wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Those 2 models are new but the characters are quite old.

Inquisitors tend to have more freedom of action compared to... pretty much everyone else.


But isn’t that ridiculous as they are the ones that go around burned planets for heresy?
That wasn't every Inquisitor. Most Inquisitors weren't even that trigger happy when it came to Exterminatus, because worlds are valuable.

I feel you've got a very narrow view on what Inquisitors are. I'd suggest reading something like Eisenhorn or Ravenor, because those are great depictions of Inquisitors Inquisiting, and in the former's case, you get to see that Puritan vs Radical ideology play out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/25 10:31:26



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So what would happen to a IG regiment that figure out how to start using eldar weapon platforms or jet bike in their ranks?

Surely if the inquisition is going to allow the use of xenos tech and allow xenos into their ranks then it sets a standard and acceptance for the rest of the imperial forces?
   
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"do as i say not as i do" would cover it


"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
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 Turnip Jedi wrote:
"do as i say not as i do" would cover it



Yes but doesn’t it open a window for a slow change in identity within the empire?? If the inquisition were breaking their own rules a long time ago them maybe that created an open mindedness for cawl and his technological advancements once RG was there to back him up
   
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mrFickle wrote:
So what would happen to a IG regiment that figure out how to start using eldar weapon platforms or jet bike in their ranks?

Surely if the inquisition is going to allow the use of xenos tech and allow xenos into their ranks then it sets a standard and acceptance for the rest of the imperial forces?


No. Asking something like that is enough for a death sentence. Depending on how fast on the uptake is your commissar, even half of that sentence already results in a quick execution.

Deeply ingrained into the mind of every Imperial citizien is the concept that they are less than maggots. The fact that a cyber dog outranks a soldier is only a half-joke.

The fact that an Inquisitor, which is a human whose standing is close to that of the God Emperor's Angels of Death, does something that you shouldn't do, doesn't mean anything to you. He is on a totally different level from you, he has reasons that you cannot even immagine. Even the thought itself that he is using xeno tech is an unforgivable heresy. He is clearly using some extremely advanced imperial weapon which you will never be able to have or even to understand.
   
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mrFickle wrote:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
"do as i say not as i do" would cover it



Yes but doesn’t it open a window for a slow change in identity within the empire?? If the inquisition were breaking their own rules a long time ago them maybe that created an open mindedness for cawl and his technological advancements once RG was there to back him up

No. Inquisitors are a step down from the Emperor. The only people with sufficient authority to challenge them are Primarchs, Custodes in the Palace and Chapter Masters and even then that's because they have a lot of de facto power.

Regular people aren't going to get, or want, the alien tech inquisitors get.

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I believe there are a great many people within the imperium that would want to take advantage of xenos tech, this is one reason why the empire, including the inquisition and ad mech, go to such lengths to create And enforce a religion that demonises and prohibits this.

Anyone who does get their hands on xenos tech or makes their own advanced tech is a renegade and heretic.

I understand corruption etc but to keep it looks substantially, to me like GW is developing a new mind set for the imperium with regards to new tech and attitudes towards xenos. And I think it’s because it enables GW to market the Human empire armies as more heroic and Allow them to have freedom to create new models without having to write 3 books to justify it
   
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mrFickle wrote:
So what would happen to a IG regiment that figure out how to start using eldar weapon platforms or jet bike in their ranks?

Surely if the inquisition is going to allow the use of xenos tech and allow xenos into their ranks then it sets a standard and acceptance for the rest of the imperial forces?


Eh inquisitors are basically law to themselves as they are considered to speak with emperor's own authority behind them. "wee" bit different.

Only ones inquisitors really have to worry is other inquisitois. Planetary governor takes offence? Better kill inquisitor and hope no other inquisitor takes offence or you are dead.

And yes in theory inquisitor could arm regiments with xenos tech. He has authority. Of course this would raise other inquisitors against him. And then it's matter of who's got biggest guns. And here we run into reason why nobody even considers it. Logistics. Having xenos gun good. Xenos gun with no ammo bad. Eldars aren't exactly interested in arms trade. Imperium can't duplicate xenos tech. Your inquisitor would end up regiments with useless ammoless guns while puritans still kicking around.

This inquisitor likely has some connection with eldar giving limiited ammo supply. Not enough to get big enough army that can hold off puritan inquisitor forces


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mrFickle wrote:
I believe there are a great many people within the imperium that would want to take advantage of xenos tech, this is one reason why the empire, including the inquisition and ad mech, go to such lengths to create And enforce a religion that demonises and prohibits this.

Anyone who does get their hands on xenos tech or makes their own advanced tech is a renegade and heretic.

I understand corruption etc but to keep it looks substantially, to me like GW is developing a new mind set for the imperium with regards to new tech and attitudes towards xenos. And I think it’s because it enables GW to market the Human empire armies as more heroic and Allow them to have freedom to create new models without having to write 3 books to justify it


Looks how? Nothing here is what hasn't been in background in ages. Nothing has changed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/25 13:51:25


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mrFickle wrote:
I believe there are a great many people within the imperium that would want to take advantage of xenos tech, this is one reason why the empire, including the inquisition and ad mech, go to such lengths to create And enforce a religion that demonises and prohibits this.

Anyone who does get their hands on xenos tech or makes their own advanced tech is a renegade and heretic.

I understand corruption etc but to keep it looks substantially, to me like GW is developing a new mind set for the imperium with regards to new tech and attitudes towards xenos. And I think it’s because it enables GW to market the Human empire armies as more heroic and Allow them to have freedom to create new models without having to write 3 books to justify it

What xenos tech do they have to take advantage of? It's not like they can find it all over the place.

What does that? The only significantly new thing is Primaris and they're not exactly pro xenos.

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mrFickle wrote:Yes but doesn’t it open a window for a slow change in identity within the empire??
No - Inquisitors operate on their own authority above practically everyone bar the Custodes. If an Inquisitor wants to use xenotech, they have every right to - only another Inquisitor, Custodes, Chapter Master, Magos Dominus or similarly super-high-ranking individual could really call them out with any degree of authority.

And again, not even all Inquisitors agree with the actions of some Radicals.
If the inquisition were breaking their own rules a long time ago them maybe that created an open mindedness for cawl and his technological advancements once RG was there to back him up
You're acting like A, the Inquisition HAVE rules, and B, they're a unified organisation - of which nether are true. The Inquisition are essentially all given carte blanche to do whatever they want to defend the Imperium, answerable to very few within the Imperium. And, compounding this, they're nearly always at eachother's throats.

mrFickle wrote:I believe there are a great many people within the imperium that would want to take advantage of xenos tech, this is one reason why the empire, including the inquisition and ad mech, go to such lengths to create And enforce a religion that demonises and prohibits this.
Prohibits it for most people, yes. Inquisitors? They operate above the law. Again - the Inquisition is NOT a unified group - there are many who want to use xenotech, and others who believe that anything more advanced than a power sword is heresy.

Anyone who does get their hands on xenos tech or makes their own advanced tech is a renegade and heretic.
There's definitely some Puritans within the Inquisition who believe that, yes. But there's plenty of Radicals who disagree, and have the authority to get away with it. Again - the Inquisition don't really care about the rules of the Imperium, only what other people of power can do about it.

I understand corruption etc but to keep it looks substantially, to me like GW is developing a new mind set for the imperium with regards to new tech and attitudes towards xenos. And I think it’s because it enables GW to market the Human empire armies as more heroic and Allow them to have freedom to create new models without having to write 3 books to justify it
Nothing is "new" about this! Radical, xenotech Inquisitors have existed long before I assume either of us were in the hobby. Stern and her Harlequin companion are long-standing icons of the Black Library. The Imperium is still displayed pretty horrifically (just look at the descriptions in Vigilus!). The real differences seem to be that Space Marines and generally Imperial characters are getting more development and character than "wants to smash the alien, heretic and daemon" - they are heroic *people* within a vile and grim empire. Even Guilliman, the de-facto head of that empire, can't change that.

But again, that's the same with most BL stories - it's people trying to survive and achieve their heroic or anti-heroic goals in a galaxy where nearly everyone, and the systems they operate in, are vile and irredeemable.

Basically, the idea that this is somehow a shift in GW's marketing or priorities because they've made a Radical Inquisitor model is just based on flawed understanding from the start.


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mrFickle wrote:
So what would happen to a IG regiment that figure out how to start using eldar weapon platforms or jet bike in their ranks?

Surely if the inquisition is going to allow the use of xenos tech and allow xenos into their ranks then it sets a standard and acceptance for the rest of the imperial forces?


Heh, this is funny because I have this EXACT scenario for my custom IG army right now. You know, a planet was left on its own for too long, started experimenting with xeno-tech, totally loved it, inquisition comes a knocking, suddenly everyone is a traitor and a heretic.

Just saying: I totally bet this thing happens from time to time in the Imperium.
   
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leerm02 wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
So what would happen to a IG regiment that figure out how to start using eldar weapon platforms or jet bike in their ranks?

Surely if the inquisition is going to allow the use of xenos tech and allow xenos into their ranks then it sets a standard and acceptance for the rest of the imperial forces?


Heh, this is funny because I have this EXACT scenario for my custom IG army right now. You know, a planet was left on its own for too long, started experimenting with xeno-tech, totally loved it, inquisition comes a knocking, suddenly everyone is a traitor and a heretic.

Just saying: I totally bet this thing happens from time to time in the Imperium.


I think this is actually a much more common occurence than you would be led to believe. I just think the only issue with it being reported is how little contact some systems have with the administratum. I remember one part of a story (Might be from star of Damocles) where a planet is found to be using T'au tech (Water wells and purifiers) to make life easier and consuming T'au rations that they traded for and the planetary governors are declared traitor and pretty much systematically eliminated.

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Xeno tech gets used all over the place - one of the early parts of the Eisenhorn stories (which are old) has a trading combine willing to bid for and use Xeno enhanced food tech. The Inquisitor even makes a point of offering it (under cover) because of how he knows it will accelerate his acceptance/cover within the group.

Xenos stuff gets used, but if you get caught using it you'll be (at best) shot. If you get caught spreading propaganda you'll be shot. Heck this is a universe where if an Ad Mech or a more strict to the code comissar sees you strap a scope to your rifle that isn't standard issue - you will be shot.



The trick with the setting is to realise that there are rules and that they are followed, but that the universe is so big that there's scope to bend them here and there. One Commissar bending the rules a little isn't changing the general doctrine of the Imperium.






As for a new age of enlightenment, don't forget all their previous ones came just before their greatest of falls. Furthermore this age isn't in response to growing Imperial technology and power, but to greater threads. They've lost Cadia; they've almost lost the hub at the centre of trade and transport that units two halves of the Imperium. They've got new Xenos like Tau managing to actually get a foothold and establish themselves (Imperium of Old would have crushed them in an afternoon). Tyranids have eaten their way to several chapter worlds of the Marines - the most heavily fortified places in the Galaxy after the Terra home system. They've Orks rampaging; Chaos Warp forces tearing the fabric of the Galaxy apart - and now a whole race of Terminator Robots are not just waking up half awake and zombie-shooting you - they are organising and forming empires and there's a risk that theyv'e a leader who might unite them under a single banner. Taking a force that was once fragmented and could at least be splintered into smaller chunks to be defeated; into a united front.

Meanwhile Xenos and Chaos cults within the Imperium are rising up at a rate never before seen.


The Imperium isn't heading toward a Golden Age - its heady toward defeat by a thousand cuts and the advance of technology is a desperate move to secure their position. I'd say its more that the Imperium has limped itself from WWI to WWII

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Okay so inquisitors May have been doing this for a Long-Bailey time and I wasn’t aware. But it doesn’t change the fact that now it’s happened with SM, not xenos but new tech that goes against the long established identity Of the imperium as a close minded stagnating religious dictatorship. This isn’t another post to rip on primaris but I still believe it’s another step by GW to move away from the old empire and into something with a culture that allows the hero humans to do whatever looks cool and like something a goodie would do.

I fully expect more of this and ideas like STCs and all that going the way of the dinosaur and even a change in ecclesiastical policies so they can do the same with the SOB at some point. I expect new tech for IG aswell.
   
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Goodies and Baddies shouldnt live in M41 they be happier somewhere else

Admittedly its easier to market that narrative but being an old grumpkin Id be miffed to see it happen

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 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Goodies and Baddies shouldnt live in M41 they be happier somewhere else

Admittedly its easier to market that narrative but being an old grumpkin Id be miffed to see it happen


But do you feel like that is happening? I mean, the new primaris ultramarines have a feel of John Cena in power armour. I admit I haven’t read all the books (is that even possible?) but the primaris don’t have the dark history the rest of the SM have and to that end it feels like there is a bit of an exercise in wiping the slate clean.
   
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mrFickle wrote:
the primaris don’t have the dark history the rest of the SM have and to that end it feels like there is a bit of an exercise in wiping the slate clean.


The Primaris have exactly the same history the rest of the SM have, or at least the same that any new recruit oldmarine implanted with a chapter's geneseed would have.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/26 10:29:51


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 harlokin wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
the primaris don’t have the dark history the rest of the SM have and to that end it feels like there is a bit of an exercise in wiping the slate clean.


The Primaris have exactly the same history the rest of the SM have, or at least the same that any new recruit oldmarine implanted with a chapter's geneseed would have.


Yeah sins of the father and all that but I don’t think it works. Part of the identity of Old SM was the fact that in they We’re literally wearing their history, power armour and terminator armour dating back centuries of not more. Unable to replicate terminator and dreadnought armour they are wearing and protecting a past that goes back to the HH. Bolt guns and purity seals worshiped venerated through ceremony like religious artifices. And then you have a regiment of primaris that have a bunch of new kit out of no where and presumably if it get broken they can just nip down to the quartermaster and get some more....

I don’t see how primaris really can inherit their chapters past and once all the old marines have died off it will be like a transformation.
   
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mrFickle wrote:Okay so inquisitors May have been doing this for a Long-Bailey time and I wasn’t aware. But it doesn’t change the fact that now it’s happened with SM, not xenos but new tech that goes against the long established identity Of the imperium as a close minded stagnating religious dictatorship. This isn’t another post to rip on primaris but I still believe it’s another step by GW to move away from the old empire and into something with a culture that allows the hero humans to do whatever looks cool and like something a goodie would do.
I'd just like to mention all the things that Space Marines developed AFTER the Heresy:
Razorbacks
Baal Predators
Centurion Warsuits
At least three new patterns of Land Raider
Stormtalon/Raven/Hawk
Hunter/Stalker
Grav-weapons (not the same as graviton)

All things developed AFTER the Heresy. The Imperium's never been unable to innovate, that's such a reductive view. They're slow to develop things, hold hideously regressive politics (compared to things like Star Trek humanity), and generally incredibly old-fashioned, but they're not technologically stationary.

Space Marines getting new toys isn't new. What's more, the Imperium's not doing anything that's not already been done. Allying with xenos for convenience? Happened countless times, when necessary. Having heroic and well-meaning heroes? Um, hello, Gaunt's Ghosts calling?
There's been very little change. Primaris haven't tipped the scales.

I fully expect more of this and ideas like STCs and all that going the way of the dinosaur and even a change in ecclesiastical policies so they can do the same with the SOB at some point. I expect new tech for IG aswell.
Are you complaining about the Imperium changing, or do you want it to change?

I mean, you've been told that maybe it's just your own perception of things that's off, and shown how older lore hasn't changed, but you're still convinced that things are changing? Sounds like you just want things to change so you can be proven right.

mrFickle wrote:But do you feel like that is happening? I mean, the new primaris ultramarines have a feel of John Cena in power armour.
I'm sorry, what? What about the new Primaris Ultramarines? In the few Primaris Ultramarine stories we have, in what way are they different to other Space Marines depictions we've had?

In fact, as Primaris Ultramarines go, I'm reminded of Pillium in 'Knights of Macragge' - who is the only Primaris in the book's second half, and is a genuinely enjoyable character to watch because he's even more "grimdark" than all the Firstborn Marines who accompany him. He's probably the biggest arse on the squad, yet apparently, you'd call him a "goodie" simply because he's a Primaris Marine.
I admit I haven’t read all the books (is that even possible?) but the primaris don’t have the dark history the rest of the SM have and to that end it feels like there is a bit of an exercise in wiping the slate clean.
Primaris have the same opportunities for history. Don't forget - Primaris Marines were around in the Heresy. They lived through one of the Imperium's most devastating wars as children, and came back to a shattered and broken empire 10,000 years later. There is SO much narrative potential there, and only the most shallow of takes would reduce it to "they don't have the same dark history".

And, just to emphasise - it's Primaris Marines adopting the customs of the Firstborn, not the other way around. If it was a case that Firstborn Marines were throwing away their cultures, I'd see your point, but that's not happening. Even the most anti-Primaris Chapter, the Flesh Tearers, have integrated Primaris into their culture, through violence and brutality.

mrFickle wrote:Part of the identity of Old SM was the fact that in they We’re literally wearing their history, power armour and terminator armour dating back centuries of not more. Unable to replicate terminator and dreadnought armour they are wearing and protecting a past that goes back to the HH. Bolt guns and purity seals worshiped venerated through ceremony like religious artifices. And then you have a regiment of primaris that have a bunch of new kit out of no where and presumably if it get broken they can just nip down to the quartermaster and get some more....
The first Primaris *Marines* date back to the Heresy though.
Power armour and bolters were still being made. It's not like every suit was dated back to the Heresy. And, don't forget, it's been several hundred years since Primaris were integrated - that's more than enough time for relic bolt rifles and suits of Tacticus armour to have picked up relic status and have their own venerable machine spirits. So yeah, when you say "wearing history, power armour dating back centuries" - you're describing Primaris Marines still.

Just because *we've* only had them for a few years doesn't make that true in-universe. Primaris equipment was more than likely stockpiled over 10,000 years, and now, is likely to be at the same production rarity of other armour marks.

I don’t see how primaris really can inherit their chapters past and once all the old marines have died off it will be like a transformation.
Why will it? Most Primaris Marines now are inducted into their Chapters from creation. They're no different from any other Space Marine in that regard. Put it this way - two Space Marine inductees are taken in from Macragge. Same age, same batch, to be taken into the Ultramarines. One becomes a Primaris Marine, the other doesn't have the added implants. Why is the Primaris Marine now unable to inherit the legacy of their Chapter?

Don't forget - several hundred years have taken place since that first batch of Primaris Marines were inducted. All Primaris since then have either been existing Space Marines undergoing the Rubicon Primaris, or entirely new recruits, just like the Imperium's been doing for 10,000 years.

There is no reason that any Chapter cultures will die off solely because of the Primaris.


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Spoiler:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
mrFickle wrote:Okay so inquisitors May have been doing this for a Long-Bailey time and I wasn’t aware. But it doesn’t change the fact that now it’s happened with SM, not xenos but new tech that goes against the long established identity Of the imperium as a close minded stagnating religious dictatorship. This isn’t another post to rip on primaris but I still believe it’s another step by GW to move away from the old empire and into something with a culture that allows the hero humans to do whatever looks cool and like something a goodie would do.
I'd just like to mention all the things that Space Marines developed AFTER the Heresy:
Razorbacks
Baal Predators
Centurion Warsuits
At least three new patterns of Land Raider
Stormtalon/Raven/Hawk
Hunter/Stalker
Grav-weapons (not the same as graviton)

All things developed AFTER the Heresy. The Imperium's never been unable to innovate, that's such a reductive view. They're slow to develop things, hold hideously regressive politics (compared to things like Star Trek humanity), and generally incredibly old-fashioned, but they're not technologically stationary.

Space Marines getting new toys isn't new. What's more, the Imperium's not doing anything that's not already been done. Allying with xenos for convenience? Happened countless times, when necessary. Having heroic and well-meaning heroes? Um, hello, Gaunt's Ghosts calling?
There's been very little change. Primaris haven't tipped the scales.

I fully expect more of this and ideas like STCs and all that going the way of the dinosaur and even a change in ecclesiastical policies so they can do the same with the SOB at some point. I expect new tech for IG aswell.
Are you complaining about the Imperium changing, or do you want it to change?

I mean, you've been told that maybe it's just your own perception of things that's off, and shown how older lore hasn't changed, but you're still convinced that things are changing? Sounds like you just want things to change so you can be proven right.

mrFickle wrote:But do you feel like that is happening? I mean, the new primaris ultramarines have a feel of John Cena in power armour.
I'm sorry, what? What about the new Primaris Ultramarines? In the few Primaris Ultramarine stories we have, in what way are they different to other Space Marines depictions we've had?

In fact, as Primaris Ultramarines go, I'm reminded of Pillium in 'Knights of Macragge' - who is the only Primaris in the book's second half, and is a genuinely enjoyable character to watch because he's even more "grimdark" than all the Firstborn Marines who accompany him. He's probably the biggest arse on the squad, yet apparently, you'd call him a "goodie" simply because he's a Primaris Marine.
I admit I haven’t read all the books (is that even possible?) but the primaris don’t have the dark history the rest of the SM have and to that end it feels like there is a bit of an exercise in wiping the slate clean.
Primaris have the same opportunities for history. Don't forget - Primaris Marines were around in the Heresy. They lived through one of the Imperium's most devastating wars as children, and came back to a shattered and broken empire 10,000 years later. There is SO much narrative potential there, and only the most shallow of takes would reduce it to "they don't have the same dark history".

And, just to emphasise - it's Primaris Marines adopting the customs of the Firstborn, not the other way around. If it was a case that Firstborn Marines were throwing away their cultures, I'd see your point, but that's not happening. Even the most anti-Primaris Chapter, the Flesh Tearers, have integrated Primaris into their culture, through violence and brutality.

mrFickle wrote:Part of the identity of Old SM was the fact that in they We’re literally wearing their history, power armour and terminator armour dating back centuries of not more. Unable to replicate terminator and dreadnought armour they are wearing and protecting a past that goes back to the HH. Bolt guns and purity seals worshiped venerated through ceremony like religious artifices. And then you have a regiment of primaris that have a bunch of new kit out of no where and presumably if it get broken they can just nip down to the quartermaster and get some more....
The first Primaris *Marines* date back to the Heresy though.
Power armour and bolters were still being made. It's not like every suit was dated back to the Heresy. And, don't forget, it's been several hundred years since Primaris were integrated - that's more than enough time for relic bolt rifles and suits of Tacticus armour to have picked up relic status and have their own venerable machine spirits. So yeah, when you say "wearing history, power armour dating back centuries" - you're describing Primaris Marines still.

Just because *we've* only had them for a few years doesn't make that true in-universe. Primaris equipment was more than likely stockpiled over 10,000 years, and now, is likely to be at the same production rarity of other armour marks.

I don’t see how primaris really can inherit their chapters past and once all the old marines have died off it will be like a transformation.
Why will it? Most Primaris Marines now are inducted into their Chapters from creation. They're no different from any other Space Marine in that regard. Put it this way - two Space Marine inductees are taken in from Macragge. Same age, same batch, to be taken into the Ultramarines. One becomes a Primaris Marine, the other doesn't have the added implants. Why is the Primaris Marine now unable to inherit the legacy of their Chapter?

Don't forget - several hundred years have taken place since that first batch of Primaris Marines were inducted. All Primaris since then have either been existing Space Marines undergoing the Rubicon Primaris, or entirely new recruits, just like the Imperium's been doing for 10,000 years.

There is no reason that any Chapter cultures will die off solely because of the Primaris.


Essentially this, theres nothing changing drastically, advancements in tech have been happening through out the lore. The OG Primaris are adapting to their Chapters, and the new Primaris are either First Born or completely recruited by the Chapter.

As for Marine's using Xeno Tech, not new. The Deathwatch has always used Xenos Tech in some way shape or form.
   
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The 'death to all xenos' thing has always struck me more as propaganda for the masses rather than a monolithic Imperial ideology, at least after the Emperor was put on the Golden Throne. With the rise of Chaos especially, I think that the elites of the Imperium know that many aliens can be low-key allies, or at least other targets. Then there's the Tyranids, who are the ultimate xenos since they come from outside the galaxy. Again, the Imperium knows that it can't hold off these enemies purely by themselves (this is possibly why the Imperium fights massive wars with orks but has not gone all out in trying to exterminate them, as the orks fight anyone they come across).

As to the idea of enlightenment, I actually would love to see a Foundation-like story where Guilliman and his allies try to collect every bit of human knowledge, culture, and wisdom they can and put it into databases for safe-keeping to try to prevent yet another major loss of information.
   
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The Imperium hasn't gone all out trying to exterminate the Orks because the leadership is aware that the task is beyond them and always has been.

The death to xenos isn't what I'd call propaganda more a half truth. The full statement would be more like "Death to the alien*"

*Unless they have use in which case keep them around.

Although I think actually the Imperium did calculate it could stop the Tyranids alone but it would empty the population of 2 segmentums.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 ArcaneHorror wrote:
The 'death to all xenos' thing has always struck me more as propaganda for the masses rather than a monolithic Imperial ideology, at least after the Emperor was put on the Golden Throne. With the rise of Chaos especially, I think that the elites of the Imperium know that many aliens can be low-key allies, or at least other targets. Then there's the Tyranids, who are the ultimate xenos since they come from outside the galaxy. Again, the Imperium knows that it can't hold off these enemies purely by themselves (this is possibly why the Imperium fights massive wars with orks but has not gone all out in trying to exterminate them, as the orks fight anyone they come across).
.


In several books various imperial commanders/inquisitors/commissars admit (among themselves) that fighting in one place would mean moving troops and supplies from another place and losing an ongoing or new war. As absurdly big as the Imperium is, its also stretched thin.

Its why Tau in particular don't get many more full-scale crusades. Because doing so means that tyranid splinter fleets would gobble other worlds, permanently. Tau don't do permanent damage and try not to overextend, rarely going head to head against major imperial worlds. Dislodging them would be too much of a fight in the face of other threats.

Eldar are similar, since they tend to keep to themselves on their craftworlds. Destroying those would be a major undertaking with too high a price to justify.

Ork waaaghs, tyranid fleets, chaos incursions, those have to be stopped, so get priority.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/27 15:17:04


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