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Spoletta wrote:
That was not the point.

We are talking about rerolling as concept, which we have mathematically demonstrated that in some cases is fine (rr1 hit and wound), in some case is not (rr hits) in some cases it is utter dumb (rr wounds).

Obviously once you go into actual application of a concept, you can screw it. That's like saying that Termagants can get Lascannons for 1 point, so single shot high damage weapons are dumb game design.

Rerolls are fine, handing them that easily is not. Also, they are not actually handed "easily" at the moment, there is just ONE source of them which is problematic, the CM stratagem. Everything else is actually fine.

Its Space Marine Points really.
Guilliman was broken, until he and various Marine units got nerfed. And then they basically left the scene outside of increasingly desperate fish for mortal wound style builds.

I think the major complaint of auras is that they encourage this blobbed up castle - even if you don't just camp right in the corner with 36"+ ranged guns. Even if you have to spread a bit for objectives (12" from one side of an aura to another covers a fair chunk of the centre of any table.)

I mean since the DE codex, I think any DE force which hasn't had 3 ravagers and probably 2 flyers in a reroll 1s to hit, reroll 1s to wound from living muse Archon Bubble, has been... well, not competitive. (I mean 9 Talos... but I still think you'd try and slot this in behind them.)

If you were going to take these units - and you probably were because they were some of the best units in the codex - not giving them a 36% damage boost is irrational.
To a degree you have to have an Archon (probably 2) - but even if we just talk about just reroll 1s to wound, its so ludicrously better than anything else the Archon can take in the codex, that not taking it is irrational.

In the years that followed DE have slowly fallen down the pecking order - due to a few nerfs, the reduction in synergy with CW Eldar and so on. So barring that Marine Player whose Primaris is still getting hosed every week by massed Dissies, no one much cares about DE, and they seem for all intents and purposes competitively dead. But you are still at the point where these buff bubbles are better than anything other way to play.

I really like this rule. People have complained about how powerful hit modifiers of any kind are. Last edition it was cover saves giving ridiculous invulnerable saves, this time around it's ridiculous -5 to hit nonsesnse. There should be a strict and hard cap to how much you can increase any such value by, otherwise you end up with Guardsmen and Gretchin who are almost as hard to kill as Iron Warriors Terminators (in other words, you end up with Gaunt's Ghosts characters).

A strict cap also prevents the possibility of rule-exploiting rubbish.

Unfortunately, it won't be long until we start seeing units and abilities which circumvent this cap. Later Codices will start relying on it to keep up with the curve. Then it won't be a cap any more, and then we'll need the 10th edition...

 NoPoet wrote:
otherwise you end up with Guardsmen and Gretchin who are almost as hard to kill as Iron Warriors Terminators

That was never the problem. It was Eldar fliers, Chaos magic-stacking, and a handful of other niche builds that could pile up penalties.

The new system will be less punishing to Guard and Tau, but BS3+ armies (especially with rerolls) won't care about negatives anymore. And the sledgehammer solution they've taken means that now penalties that players could mitigate, like moving and firing Heavy or advancing and firing Assault, won't matter against anything with a -1 to hit.

From reading the last few posts, I just realized that from a variety point of view, orks are quite lucky to simply not have any re-roll auras.
If I'm running infantry, a weird boy with da jump is mandatory, and the two orks carrying our killy relics are for every build. Outside of that, I'm pretty much free to pick whatever I like best.

Death Guard? It's re-roll arch-contaminator or bust.