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The issue is it's limited and usually sells out instantly with a lot of people buying multiples only with intent to sell them for double that. Legal perhaps but IMHO unethical and a scummy move.

Wayniac wrote:
The issue is it's limited and usually sells out instantly with a lot of people buying multiples only with intent to sell them for double that. Legal perhaps but IMHO unethical and a scummy move.

Not at all, they are doing it for investment purposes, so kudos to them.

If reselling it in 6 months time for 5x the price is their plan so they can buy a Warlord Titan, then so be it.

It's like gemstone dealers - fantastic Burmese top quality Ruby only comes onto the market rarely, and they are always snapped up by investors who have zero intention of putting them into rings. In 15 years the price of a 5 carat, top quality Burmese Ruby has gone from $2,000 per carat to well over $250,000 per carat.

And again, just go to your local store and place an order. The first shipment won't be the only shipment. These box sets are available for years to come.

I've never understood the malice that is shown to people who buy with the intent to re-sell later, I've always seen it as most similar to buying gold (i.e. a luxury good that is very likely, though never truly guaranteed, to be worth more later.)

As long as the investor buys them through the same channel as the average punter, i.e. they sit refreshing the webpage to try and buy as soon as they go live on the website - rather than underhand ways like say bribing a store owner to keep a bunch aside for them then surely it's fair game on the acquisition side.

Similar to when it comes to sell, yes it's always a bit painful to see things listed for 5x the cost on eBay Buy It Now but if they do sell then surely someone got something they wanted for a price they considered acceptable right? Maybe not considering the general consensus here.

But then what about auctions? You can't possibly say someone is scalping because their low start price auction did well right? What if they do an auction then list another on BIN for the same price as the auction final bid? Surely that's a good way to gauge the current market cost?


As a personal example I bought multiple copies of the Warcry starter set at launch with the genuine intention of building an amazing gaming board, I really thought the terrain was amazing! When I got them I listed some of the extra warbands/ cards/ rules etc on eBay for £1 less than the lowest from anyone else to get a quick sale, ended up making most of my money back at the time. Fast forward to a few months back and I knew that project would never get done so I sold the (now very desirable) terrain for the same £1 less than anyone else on eBay and made a lot of profit. Finally I auctioned one of the two still sealed copies, made more profit still. Then finally I sold the last sealed copy at the final auction price on BIN.

I'm curious as to when in that sequence of events did what I was doing become unethical or even "scummy"? I hadn't set out to make profit, is that enough? Was it as soon as I bought multiple boxes, or somewhere later on.


Also as an aside, splitting boxes is fairly costly compared to retail before you start making profit. Say for the Indom box split into three (so Marines, Crons and book) You're looking at box cost plus packaging, postage, ebay fees, paypal fees and some amount for travel to the post office. Say the box cost me £80, I'd need to sell it all for £115 to break even, let alone make any profit.


Cheers
Chris

Scalping is an issue when a product is of limited stock and the population desiring the stock is greater than the total amount of stock.

At which point you've a product where not everyone will secure a copy of the product.

If its only fans buying it then if you miss out you just miss out.

However if you miss out because a large quantity of the stock was bought by a group who then turn around and sell the product at a higher price, then those who wanted the product at the original retail price feel disgruntled. The only reason they don't own the product at the original price is because someone else bought it and raised the price.


People don't like paying more and an organised scalping group with significant investment and good computers can buy up significant quantities of stock in a very short span of time. Again the football tickets were a prime example where scalpers were able to buy up vast numbers of tickets within seconds of them going live.


It's not illegal, its pure capitalism, but that doesn't mean people "like" it. Furthermore the more a products price rises the more people it locks out of being willing/able to afford it.


IF GW sell a box at £120 and then a scalper puts it up to £160 then a portion of people who were able at the 120 mark are now unable to buy it at that price and are forced to buy it at the £160 if they still want it. However some of that bracket won't have the extra £40 to spend or can justify spending that much extra.




Again its not illegal, but its not something most people like (unless you happen to be doing it yourself or you don't want the product so its more of a situation you can "stand back" from).

 Snotcatcher wrote:
I've never understood the malice that is shown to people who buy with the intent to re-sell later, I've always seen it as most similar to buying gold (i.e. a luxury good that is very likely, though never truly guaranteed, to be worth more later.)

As long as the investor buys them through the same channel as the average punter, i.e. they sit refreshing the webpage to try and buy as soon as they go live on the website - rather than underhand ways like say bribing a store owner to keep a bunch aside for them then surely it's fair game on the acquisition side.

Similar to when it comes to sell, yes it's always a bit painful to see things listed for 5x the cost on eBay Buy It Now but if they do sell then surely someone got something they wanted for a price they considered acceptable right? Maybe not considering the general consensus here.

But then what about auctions? You can't possibly say someone is scalping because their low start price auction did well right? What if they do an auction then list another on BIN for the same price as the auction final bid? Surely that's a good way to gauge the current market cost?


As a personal example I bought multiple copies of the Warcry starter set at launch with the genuine intention of building an amazing gaming board, I really thought the terrain was amazing! When I got them I listed some of the extra warbands/ cards/ rules etc on eBay for £1 less than the lowest from anyone else to get a quick sale, ended up making most of my money back at the time. Fast forward to a few months back and I knew that project would never get done so I sold the (now very desirable) terrain for the same £1 less than anyone else on eBay and made a lot of profit. Finally I auctioned one of the two still sealed copies, made more profit still. Then finally I sold the last sealed copy at the final auction price on BIN.

I'm curious as to when in that sequence of events did what I was doing become unethical or even "scummy"? I hadn't set out to make profit, is that enough? Was it as soon as I bought multiple boxes, or somewhere later on.


Also as an aside, splitting boxes is fairly costly compared to retail before you start making profit. Say for the Indom box split into three (so Marines, Crons and book) You're looking at box cost plus packaging, postage, ebay fees, paypal fees and some amount for travel to the post office. Say the box cost me £80, I'd need to sell it all for £115 to break even, let alone make any profit.


Cheers
Chris

I think I know the reason you don't get this malice. From what I gathered its is certain members of the community feel GW miniatures are somehow a "necessasity" because "they want" to be in the hobby, or they want others to be in the hobby but never ask the question if they can reasonably afford it or justify it. It's a needless plastic pile of crap that's a luxury product like comic book statutes, jewelery etc.

So they feel entitled to the stuff and somehow you are now allowed to do with it what you want.. Be that put it int he bin or re-sell it at double the ££

The GW price hike thread shows some interesting perspective.

 Snotcatcher wrote:
I've never understood the malice that is shown to people who buy with the intent to re-sell later

Pick something you personally like to have and can afford, and increase it's cost two, three, fourfold until you are uncomfortable paying for it.

The reason for the increase is that an intermediary has stepped in between you and the supplier and is demanding this extra payment.

Now you probably don't need this thing that you like, but "cough up or sod off" is still a bitter pill.

I don't have any issues with buying a product to split it, and making a small profit off of the various lots.

Your the person who took the time to buy it, split the box, package each lot, and ship it. It can't be expected for the seller to sell it at cost, as they are losing money at that point.

I buy from bits sellers and people who split lots, I don't often want or need the whole box, and paying a small convenience fee is acceptable to me.

For a while I was also buying lots of models, stripping them if needed, and reselling them for a slight profit... But it is a lot of work and time out of your day, more so if you work a full time job. I commend the bits sellers and people who split lots, it is a lot of work, and with how little PayPal does to protect sellers you always run the risk of the buyer trying to scam you, and PayPal forcing you to give them a refund when the models were delivered. So you need the other sales from the box or lot be able to cover a loss in the case that happens.

A.T. wrote:

 Snotcatcher wrote:
I've never understood the malice that is shown to people who buy with the intent to re-sell later

Pick something you personally like to have and can afford, and increase it's cost two, three, fourfold until you are uncomfortable paying for it.

The reason for the increase is that an intermediary has stepped in between you and the supplier and is demanding this extra payment.

Now you probably don't need this thing that you like, but "cough up or sod off" is still a bitter pill.

Except there is virtually nothing stopping that person from ordering directly from GW in the first place when the pre-order goes up...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I don't have any issues with buying a product to split it, and making a small profit off of the various lots.

Your the person who took the time to buy it, split the box, package each lot, and ship it. It can't be expected for the seller to sell it at cost, as they are losing money at that point.

I buy from bits sellers and people who split lots, I don't often want or need the whole box, and paying a small convenience fee is acceptable to me.

For a while I was also buying lots of models, stripping them if needed, and reselling them for a slight profit... But it is a lot of work and time out of your day, more so if you work a full time job. I commend the bits sellers and people who split lots, it is a lot of work, and with how little PayPal does to protect sellers you always run the risk of the buyer trying to scam you, and PayPal forcing you to give them a refund when the models were delivered. So you need the other sales from the box or lot be able to cover a loss in the case that happens.

Nonsense... they are evil for putting in time, effort and risk to make a profit . How dare they.

 Argive wrote:
Except there is virtually nothing stopping that person from ordering directly from GW in the first place when the pre-order goes up...

In this particular case that is probably true - but then nobody minds scalpers when they are buying up something that is readily available regardless.

A.T. wrote:
Pick something you personally like to have and can afford, and increase it's cost two, three, fourfold until you are uncomfortable paying for it.

The reason for the increase is that an intermediary has stepped in between you and the supplier and is demanding this extra payment.

Now you probably don't need this thing that you like, but "cough up or sod off" is still a bitter pill.

Oh believe me I know it hurts to have to pay over the odds for something, I've done it plenty! I'm more curious about people's opinions on when investing in something turn into scalping.

I think people maybe look at it differently when it's Warhammer rather than other luxury goods.

Also as an aside, an intermediary stepping in between me and the supplier is surely the exact definition of my local game store (or really any independent retailer.) They make profit on the sale and I don't mind it, even if I don't get anything more from the deal than the product itself.

Tldr: not saying overcharging is at all good or positive, I'm just curious exactly when it supposedly becomes bad or ""immoral."


Cheers
Chris

 Argive wrote:

 Snotcatcher wrote:
I've never understood the malice that is shown to people who buy with the intent to re-sell later, I've always seen it as most similar to buying gold (i.e. a luxury good that is very likely, though never truly guaranteed, to be worth more later.)

As long as the investor buys them through the same channel as the average punter, i.e. they sit refreshing the webpage to try and buy as soon as they go live on the website - rather than underhand ways like say bribing a store owner to keep a bunch aside for them then surely it's fair game on the acquisition side.

Similar to when it comes to sell, yes it's always a bit painful to see things listed for 5x the cost on eBay Buy It Now but if they do sell then surely someone got something they wanted for a price they considered acceptable right? Maybe not considering the general consensus here.

But then what about auctions? You can't possibly say someone is scalping because their low start price auction did well right? What if they do an auction then list another on BIN for the same price as the auction final bid? Surely that's a good way to gauge the current market cost?


As a personal example I bought multiple copies of the Warcry starter set at launch with the genuine intention of building an amazing gaming board, I really thought the terrain was amazing! When I got them I listed some of the extra warbands/ cards/ rules etc on eBay for £1 less than the lowest from anyone else to get a quick sale, ended up making most of my money back at the time. Fast forward to a few months back and I knew that project would never get done so I sold the (now very desirable) terrain for the same £1 less than anyone else on eBay and made a lot of profit. Finally I auctioned one of the two still sealed copies, made more profit still. Then finally I sold the last sealed copy at the final auction price on BIN.

I'm curious as to when in that sequence of events did what I was doing become unethical or even "scummy"? I hadn't set out to make profit, is that enough? Was it as soon as I bought multiple boxes, or somewhere later on.


Also as an aside, splitting boxes is fairly costly compared to retail before you start making profit. Say for the Indom box split into three (so Marines, Crons and book) You're looking at box cost plus packaging, postage, ebay fees, paypal fees and some amount for travel to the post office. Say the box cost me £80, I'd need to sell it all for £115 to break even, let alone make any profit.


Cheers
Chris

I think I know the reason you don't get this malice. From what I gathered its is certain members of the community feel GW miniatures are somehow a "necessasity" because "they want" to be in the hobby, or they want others to be in the hobby but never ask the question if they can reasonably afford it or justify it. It's a needless plastic pile of crap that's a luxury product like comic book statutes, jewelery etc.

So they feel entitled to the stuff and somehow you are now allowed to do with it what you want.. Be that put it int he bin or re-sell it at double the ££

The GW price hike thread shows some interesting perspective.

Toy soldiers are not like "comic book statues" and "jewelry." Or any other thing that just sits there looking nice. Nor are they indulgent. They're game pieces, made in a manner and of such materials as to be reasonably expected to be widely attainable.

Scaliping is absolutely scummy. Selling bits is one thing, since GW refuses to include all options within the kits, and we all have our little projects, but buying something at the store just to mark it up on eBay is taking advantage of people, especially when the supply is limited.

 Snotcatcher wrote:
Tldr: not saying overcharging is at all good or positive, I'm just curious exactly when it supposedly becomes bad or ""immoral."

Immoral... i'd say if it's something that others genuinely need or will suffer without - for example right before the lockdown here some guy cleared out the entire shelf of childrens cough medicine at the local store (via self checkout) to resell for profit.

'Bad' is highly subjective. You see a kid reaching for the last toy on a shelf, get it before him, and then offer it back to him at twice the cost. As you a bad person or is it fair game? What if it's not a kid, what if you were there well in advance, etc.

 Snotcatcher wrote:


Oh believe me I know it hurts to have to pay over the odds for something, I've done it plenty! I'm more curious about people's opinions on when investing in something turn into scalping.

I think people maybe look at it differently when it's Warhammer rather than other luxury goods.

Also as an aside, an intermediary stepping in between me and the supplier is surely the exact definition of my local game store (or really any independent retailer.) They make profit on the sale and I don't mind it, even if I don't get anything more from the deal than the product itself.

Tldr: not saying overcharging is at all good or positive, I'm just curious exactly when it supposedly becomes bad or ""immoral."


Cheers
Chris

A few thoughts:

1) It's not just warhammer, but this is a warhammer site so things focus around it. Were it football or any other market we'd likely be complaining about those scalper issues too.

2) A shop is different to a scalper for a few reasons:

a) A manufacturer might not sell direct to customers and instead relies on distributors and shops to distribute the goods to the customer. In this situation the store is essential to the distribution of the product. Without the shop you'd not be able to buy

b) A shop won't typically sell a product above a manufacturers recommended retail price (and in some cases are forbidden by contracts). The shop profits because they get the product at discount to sell on.

c) A shop typically works to locally promote a product line and support the needs of the consumer. Sales support, repairs, consumer advice, shops can provide a lot locally. For wargamers they might even support local clubs and act as a recruitment hub for the area - helping to promote the products.

3) Scalping happens in every market, where it comes to harm the market is when the scalpers move from being a one or two product affair to buying out entire supplies of stock in one go. This, of course, works best for them when the product is strictly limited in quantity, thus allowing them to make a known investment (purchase) to secure the majority/all of the stock. At this point the scalper (which might be several different people/groups all scalping at once) has taken the majority of the supply of the product and denied the customer the option of buying from the manufacturer and/or a retailer. The scalper then raises the price and provides from the resell of the product.
At no point was the scalper needed to help bring the product to the market; nor to support the market with pre and after sale support. They are purely invested into it for the money and profit they can make.

People understand the value of retailers and shops in local supply and consumer aid. They dislike scalpers because the scalper is offering no benefit, no gain to the consumer. They are purely buying-out a product and raising the price for profit. This can mean that the company actually loses out on potential investment, because now their customers are having to buy products from the scalpers, which means that the number of sales of items per customer might go down if they are having to spend more per product (this assumes the scalpers are targeting specific products not the whole product line). If you had to pay £30 more for a boxed set then that's £30 you won't be spending on models from a store/GW instead.

Blastaar wrote:

Toy soldiers are not like "comic book statues" and "jewelry." Or any other thing that just sits there looking nice. Nor are they indulgent. They're game pieces, made in a manner and of such materials as to be reasonably expected to be widely attainable.

Scaliping is absolutely scummy. Selling bits is one thing, since GW refuses to include all options within the kits, and we all have our little projects, but buying something at the store just to mark it up on eBay is taking advantage of people, especially when the supply is limited.

Uh, toy soldiers are exactly like jewelry / comic statues / comics / any other purely luxury product. They're purely vanity / pedestrian, and in no way something which people absolutely need access to.

Trying to differentiate them from comic book stuff, of all things, really puts this into perspective. You can live without your plastic army men. And if you're so tuned into the dopamine rush of purchasing them that you think you cant, then scalping is probably the least of your worries.

Never new Morgan Freeman collects miniatures

This isn't limited like the holiday bundles limited, it's not selling out anytime soon.

Scalpers wouldn't do it if people were not willing to pay for it. Vote with your dollars and democracy will decide. As long as people are willing to pay scalpers will keep doing it.

One of the big issues with scalpers, is they will utilise services like returns often.
Buy up stock, company restocks and then suddenly gets returns as the scalpers try and get out if they didn’t plan well.

So it can effect things that don’t have a limited time sale, but realistically take time to make and restock to keep up with unusual demand.

It’s difficult also in that with pop culture they may buy things up and only display one or two in a store, as the intent is to have some stock left to sell over a few years. Very different but looks the same at the offset.

 Argive wrote:


Except there is virtually nothing stopping that person from ordering directly from GW in the first place when the pre-order goes up...


.

There is taxs the store doesn't pay, if they buy stuff from germany, instead of UK. And GW has, or at least seems to have a priority based on where the shop is. Non GW shops in US seem to get their stuff on time, while in other places GW is always late with shipments, and when I say late, I mean like 4-5 weeks late.

And this is for the non limited preorders or pre orders that are technicly limited, but in reality are huge, real limited pre order stuff is always going to be bought up by people with better internet connection.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Scalpers wouldn't do it if people were not willing to pay for it. Vote with your dollars and democracy will decide. As long as people are willing to pay scalpers will keep doing it.

That doesn't work when people that play the game in some countries earn 450-500$ per month, and others earn that in a week. May as well say that those who can't afford scalpers prices will not get the stuff till they rotate out or become bad.

On one level, I kind of despise it. On another, I think it's awesome. I dislike limited product being taken from intended end-users who may want the entire set and are forced to pick it up at an increased premium, and the price increases the captured supply imposes on the market aren't good for the intended original end user either. At the same time, many end users are ultimately often going to end up trashing half the set or reselling it anyway, and a lot of people may only want a specific piece, and the resellers are just more effectively distributing product across the entire spectrum of market demand.

So, on the whole, I think it's an unavoidable reflection of the reality of the market, and issues like large quantities of demand being more granular than the supply allows.

Well things are different of course depenending on situation.
Someone buys a box of space hulk, never opens it, 2 years later sells for profit. nothing wrong with that.

Store owner, taking the preordered sets and re selling them online or doing the whole, WotC didn't send us promos or box toppers, is another.

Someone buying out both the sister starters, so localy no one starts the army, so they don't have to worry about spliting the models at the store with others, is also different from someone just going to the store and buying a starter set to paint it.

 Lance845 wrote:
Vote with your dollars and democracy will decide.

*Plutocracy.

A.T. wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Vote with your dollars and democracy will decide.

*Plutocracy.

*Capitalism.

A.T. wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Except there is virtually nothing stopping that person from ordering directly from GW in the first place when the pre-order goes up...

In this particular case that is probably true - but then nobody minds scalpers when they are buying up something that is readily available regardless.

In my experience, "Scalping" is used to refer specifically to cases where people are trying to take advantage of limited availability of an item by bulk-buying it, therefore introducing an artificial scarcity which they then abuse by ramping up the price.

It's very specifically about manipulating supply and demand, so in the cases where it's not possible to meaningfully manipulate that, it's also not possible to effectively scalp.

I just made a post on here about someone selling on an E-Bay auction an old Goblin box for $200.00, which retailed for 35.00. There are certainly are plenty of fools out there with too much money on their hands. My thought process is that you could buy a whole army from an alternative manufacture, or save your money for a good 3-D printer down the line and print out something compatible.

I picked the last line, and not because I am fan of scalpers. My E-Bay practice is to put something at $5.00 and let the buyers decide what they are willing to buy. Ironically enough you get exactly what someone is willing to pay for it, and that is what will happen this time around. Its called a market, and it will form at places like E-Bay. However, like scalpers at an event, their window to make money closes. In this case it closes when these are sold at every GW store and LGS that live around you. Until that window closes, I have no sympathy for anyone who is foolish and impatient enough to pay significantly more for a bunch of toy soldiers.

For me personally, when this comes out, I am not sure if I am going to buy the box or not. I have some interest in the Necrons, but it is a new army for me so I am not sold just yet. I may take more interest when someone has broken it down and painted the miniatures up so that I can see them in real life. I did the same thing on the AOBR and the Skull Pass box sets. I bought the AOBR and passed on the Skull Pass. Either way I can wait, and those that missed their chance to get on the "early bird list" can wait too or pay through the nose for their impatience.

blaktoof wrote:
This isn't limited like the holiday bundles limited, it's not selling out anytime soon.

It's going to sell out in mere minutes imho.

TinyLegions wrote:

I picked the last line, and not because I am fan of scalpers. My E-Bay practice is to put something at $5.00 and let the buyers decide what they are willing to buy. Ironically enough you get exactly what someone is willing to pay for it, and that is what will happen this time around. Its called a market, and it will form at places like E-Bay.

Bidding markets can both over and undersell on what the market is willing to pay for an item.
I've seen people bid up prices on ebay to more than retail value and I've seen things that should sell at top price sell for almost nothing. Sometimes its a misslisting or missunderstanding; other times a product is just listed at the right or wrong time and the price reflects it. Eg perhaps listing a rare product for sale when a majority of that products customers have moved on and aren't looking for it. Something that should command a high value that doesn't because its not being looked for nor expected to be found so you only get a few hits.

Or perhaps you put something up and two novices with money but perhaps not as much awareness/experience of the model range; bid like crazy. A bidding war starts and something sells for way more than normal.


Auctions are always open to such inconsistent results. Ebay slightly less so because of its massive market reach; local auctions you can see this have far more impact. I've also seen a local auction house steadily grow more and more popular and saw the average prices creep steadily upward. Because as popularity grew; awareness grew and more and more people were paying attention, which mean more competition for items.

I never understood how this was even a thing. If you want to spend money on something with the intentions of reselling it, go for it. It’s not like GW will only be releasing 10 boxes, so chances are people interested will be able to find a copy at retail or even less. Those that only want SM or Necron probably won’t mind spending a bit extra (per half) if they can save some off the total cost.

As for the price hikes; they will only see for what someone is willing to pay.

OOP minatures are something else IMO. They are more towards collectibles than gaming miniatures in the sphere of object use which reflect the price I think.

Like OOP WHFB is selling at a massive premium. Any dogs of war units are really rare and there weren't that many kicking about in the first place.