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2020/07/03 20:39:03
Subject: Did the Deathwatch know what they were doing when they messed with Eldrad's ritual to create Ynnead?
Or did they merely learn that Eldrad was in a certain place, figured he was up to no good, and stumbled into a situation they knew nothing about?
I ask because I struggle to understand why the Imperium would want to foil a ritual that would, in effect, deprive Slaanesh of his sustenance in Eldar souls. Whether the Deathwatch knew about the nature of the ritual or not, they come across as morons who only succeeded in giving Slaanesh a helping hand and royally pissing off the Eldar. It would have made more sense if the Emperor's Children had been the ones trying to stop the ritual.
.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/03 20:40:54
As I recall one of the Harlequins explicitly told the Deathwatch leader what it was for and what it was doing and they got shot in the head and they ruined it all anyway.
That's the problem with hiring people who are zealots even by the Imperium's standards, they make stupid choices.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2020/07/03 22:08:35
Subject: Re:Did the Deathwatch know what they were doing when they messed with Eldrad's ritual to create Ynnead?
It's the classic Imperium does something stupid even when warned not to.
Same as how in Dawn of War, they were warned by the Eldar not to mess with the artifact. The Imperium did so anyway and ended up releasing a Chaos daemon, then blamed the Eldar for tricking them.
2020/07/03 22:51:33
Subject: Did the Deathwatch know what they were doing when they messed with Eldrad's ritual to create Ynnead?
-Guardsman- wrote: Or did they merely learn that Eldrad was in a certain place, figured he was up to no good, and stumbled into a situation they knew nothing about?
I ask because I struggle to understand why the Imperium would want to foil a ritual that would, in effect, deprive Slaanesh of his sustenance in Eldar souls. Whether the Deathwatch knew about the nature of the ritual or not, they come across as morons who only succeeded in giving Slaanesh a helping hand and royally pissing off the Eldar. It would have made more sense if the Emperor's Children had been the ones trying to stop the ritual.
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Your musings run on a lot of assumtions. Like the Deathwatch knowing any of it. Or trusting anything and Eldar say. Or that they would bennefit from an Eldar ressurection. An Eldar rennesanse that is what the Deathwatch want.
If anything, Ordo Malleus would be the once who wanted the ritual to work. (And Ordo Xenos would really oppose that!)
All SM are essentially child soldiers. I gues that will affect their philosofical logic somewhat, especialy when it comes to reasoning.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/03 22:53:14
Personally I think the Deathwatch absolutely made the right call! Eldar are Xenos and a constant threat to humanity. They used to completely dominate the galaxy, and even in their reduced state their piracy, scheming and wars are hugely damaging to the Imperium.
Anything could have happened if they were allowed to create a god, it's a complete wildcard. Even in a best case where it somehow diminishes Chaos, how long before that power is turned upon humanity? Empowering one dangerous enemy to fight another dangerous enemy seems counterproductive!
It's also worth pointing out that this happened before the fall of the Cadian Gate system when Imperial strength of arms had been sufficient to deal with Chaos incursions for nearly 10,000 years, there's no way the Deathwatch could have predicted the creation of the Great Rift and the dramatic shift in the balance of power that followed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/03 23:46:19
2020/07/03 23:53:38
Subject: Did the Deathwatch know what they were doing when they messed with Eldrad's ritual to create Ynnead?
pm713 wrote: As I recall one of the Harlequins explicitly told the Deathwatch leader what it was for and what it was doing and they got shot in the head and they ruined it all anyway.
That's the problem with hiring people who are zealots even by the Imperium's standards, they make stupid choices.
Well, yeah. But on the other hand, eldar in general and harelquins in particular aren't renowned for their honesty. Particularly about their rites or humans.
Believing filthy xenos lies seems unreasonable... even when they are true.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/03 23:53:58
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2020/07/04 00:07:43
Subject: Did the Deathwatch know what they were doing when they messed with Eldrad's ritual to create Ynnead?
pm713 wrote: As I recall one of the Harlequins explicitly told the Deathwatch leader what it was for and what it was doing and they got shot in the head and they ruined it all anyway.
That's the problem with hiring people who are zealots even by the Imperium's standards, they make stupid choices.
Well, yeah. But on the other hand, eldar in general and harelquins in particular aren't renowned for their honesty. Particularly about their rites or humans.
Believing filthy xenos lies seems unreasonable... even when they are true.
This keeps being used to describe Eldar, but humans aren't honest with xenos either if they're every talking to them and not just killing them.
The idea of Eldar lies is very clearly an imperial justification for killing them.
The only forces in 40k I expect are actually honest with Aliens is the orks and tau, but for different reasons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact I'd argue the imperium is more dishonest - the eldar have taken inquisitors into the black library and shown them their darkest secrets, laying bare raw truths that many of their own people don't know.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/04 00:12:35
-Guardsman- wrote: I ask because I struggle to understand why the Imperium would want to foil a ritual that would, in effect, deprive Slaanesh of his sustenance in Eldar souls.
If a Xenos claimed to be able to repair the Golden Throne he would just be assassinated by the Imperium for double heresy (existing, saying "golden throne" out loud while not being human).
The Imperium is lawful stupid. The "tragedy" of the 40k setting is that humanity's greatest enemy is itself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/04 03:10:39
2020/07/04 06:28:42
Subject: Did the Deathwatch know what they were doing when they messed with Eldrad's ritual to create Ynnead?
I have to say this is fluff I like as it fits to my perception of the Imperium. It's the same with Mechanicus and Necrons fighting over blackstone when both want to use it for the same thing - contain Chaos.
I hope Primaris do these "stupid" (but from an Imperial point of view legitimate) actions, too. And don't start to reason with Eldar just because they revived their primarch.
2020/07/04 07:42:14
Subject: Re:Did the Deathwatch know what they were doing when they messed with Eldrad's ritual to create Ynnead?
I suspect the Deathwatch just got lucky, the planet was already under attack by Eldar and detecting some more on the nearby moon undoubtabley up to some xenos no good witchcraft
At that point any explanation wasnt going to be accepted and Deathwatch going to Deathwatch especially as they have enough xenos know how to understand just how dangerous farseers are
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/04 07:50:03
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
2020/07/04 07:42:26
Subject: Did the Deathwatch know what they were doing when they messed with Eldrad's ritual to create Ynnead?
BlaxicanX wrote: If a Xenos claimed to be able to repair the Golden Throne he would just be assassinated by the Imperium for double heresy (existing, saying "golden throne" out loud while not being human).
Not arguing the general point, but Xenos (Haemonculi Covens) have already been approached about, and involved in, repairing the golden toilet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/04 07:42:45
VAIROSEAN LIVES!
2020/07/04 08:25:34
Subject: Did the Deathwatch know what they were doing when they messed with Eldrad's ritual to create Ynnead?
BlaxicanX wrote: If a Xenos claimed to be able to repair the Golden Throne he would just be assassinated by the Imperium for double heresy (existing, saying "golden throne" out loud while not being human).
Not arguing the general point, but Xenos (Haemonculi Covens) have already been approached about, and involved in, repairing the golden toilet.
Yep - in The Carrion Throne (and it goes about as well as you'd expect).
2020/07/04 15:46:52
Subject: Did the Deathwatch know what they were doing when they messed with Eldrad's ritual to create Ynnead?
BlaxicanX wrote: If a Xenos claimed to be able to repair the Golden Throne he would just be assassinated by the Imperium for double heresy (existing, saying "golden throne" out loud while not being human).
Not arguing the general point, but Xenos (Haemonculi Covens) have already been approached about, and involved in, repairing the golden toilet.
Yep - in The Carrion Throne (and it goes about as well as you'd expect).
Would you mind saying what happens? I'm curious but not enough to buy an ebook.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2020/07/04 18:05:42
Subject: Did the Deathwatch know what they were doing when they messed with Eldrad's ritual to create Ynnead?
pm713 wrote: As I recall one of the Harlequins explicitly told the Deathwatch leader what it was for and what it was doing and they got shot in the head and they ruined it all anyway.
That's the problem with hiring people who are zealots even by the Imperium's standards, they make stupid choices.
Well, yeah. But on the other hand, eldar in general and harelquins in particular aren't renowned for their honesty. Particularly about their rites or humans.
Believing filthy xenos lies seems unreasonable... even when they are true.
This keeps being used to describe Eldar, but humans aren't honest with xenos either if they're every talking to them and not just killing them.
Well, obviously they aren't. I'm not sure of the relevance.
No part of 'humans think eldar lie' even vaguely implies that humans have any reason to be honest with eldar.
Imperial morality doesn't revolve around honesty. It revolves around being human.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/04 18:06:41
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2020/07/04 18:16:18
Subject: Did the Deathwatch know what they were doing when they messed with Eldrad's ritual to create Ynnead?
BlaxicanX wrote: If a Xenos claimed to be able to repair the Golden Throne he would just be assassinated by the Imperium for double heresy (existing, saying "golden throne" out loud while not being human).
Not arguing the general point, but Xenos (Haemonculi Covens) have already been approached about, and involved in, repairing the golden toilet.
Yep - in The Carrion Throne (and it goes about as well as you'd expect).
Would you mind saying what happens? I'm curious but not enough to buy an ebook.
Spoiler:
Some High Lords conspire to bring Haemonculi to Terra, to either fix the Throne or release the Emperor.
Haemonculi betray them and start partying on Terra.
Some Inquisitors (Erasmus Crowl) & Custodes notice this and kick ass.
Haemonculi (& traitors) almost make it to the Golden Throne.
Inquisitor Crowl saves the day (and sees the Emperor), but has his soul 'damaged' by a Haemonculi.
The next book (The Hollow Mountain) is Crowl trying to work out what the Xenos did to him, and if there's any more Traitors left alive - then The Great Rift happens.
2020/07/04 18:31:32
Subject: Did the Deathwatch know what they were doing when they messed with Eldrad's ritual to create Ynnead?
BlaxicanX wrote: If a Xenos claimed to be able to repair the Golden Throne he would just be assassinated by the Imperium for double heresy (existing, saying "golden throne" out loud while not being human).
Not arguing the general point, but Xenos (Haemonculi Covens) have already been approached about, and involved in, repairing the golden toilet.
Yep - in The Carrion Throne (and it goes about as well as you'd expect).
Would you mind saying what happens? I'm curious but not enough to buy an ebook.
Spoiler:
Some High Lords conspire to bring Haemonculi to Terra, to either fix the Throne or release the Emperor.
Haemonculi betray them and start partying on Terra.
Some Inquisitors (Erasmus Crowl) & Custodes notice this and kick ass.
Haemonculi (& traitors) almost make it to the Golden Throne.
Inquisitor Crowl saves the day (and sees the Emperor), but has his soul 'damaged' by a Haemonculi.
The next book (The Hollow Mountain) is Crowl trying to work out what the Xenos did to him, and if there's any more Traitors left alive - then The Great Rift happens.
Nobody could have possibly predicted that happening.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2020/07/04 18:37:33
Subject: Re:Did the Deathwatch know what they were doing when they messed with Eldrad's ritual to create Ynnead?
Tortured Throne "Following the apparent abduction of several Custodian Guard, Inquisitors of the Ordo Xenos pursue the Coven of the Twisted Spiral to a wandering moon deep in the interstellar void. Hopes of catching their quarry soon vanish, but on the moon’s barren surface the Inquisitors find what appears to be a simulacrum of the Golden Throne, covered in blood and viscera. Just as they are sending word of their discovery, the Twisted Spiral appear and butcher the Imperial agents."
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/04 18:40:23
VAIROSEAN LIVES!
2020/07/04 19:39:52
Subject: Re:Did the Deathwatch know what they were doing when they messed with Eldrad's ritual to create Ynnead?
Tortured Throne "Following the apparent abduction of several Custodian Guard, Inquisitors of the Ordo Xenos pursue the Coven of the Twisted Spiral to a wandering moon deep in the interstellar void. Hopes of catching their quarry soon vanish, but on the moon’s barren surface the Inquisitors find what appears to be a simulacrum of the Golden Throne, covered in blood and viscera. Just as they are sending word of their discovery, the Twisted Spiral appear and butcher the Imperial agents."
Yeah - Haemonculi are interested in it for some reason...
2020/07/04 23:52:38
Subject: Did the Deathwatch know what they were doing when they messed with Eldrad's ritual to create Ynnead?
pm713 wrote: As I recall one of the Harlequins explicitly told the Deathwatch leader what it was for and what it was doing and they got shot in the head and they ruined it all anyway.
That's the problem with hiring people who are zealots even by the Imperium's standards, they make stupid choices.
Well, yeah. But on the other hand, eldar in general and harelquins in particular aren't renowned for their honesty. Particularly about their rites or humans.
Believing filthy xenos lies seems unreasonable... even when they are true.
This keeps being used to describe Eldar, but humans aren't honest with xenos either if they're every talking to them and not just killing them.
Well, obviously they aren't. I'm not sure of the relevance.
No part of 'humans think eldar lie' even vaguely implies that humans have any reason to be honest with eldar.
Imperial morality doesn't revolve around honesty. It revolves around being human.
Yes but it's held up as a truth by fans as a moral justification for imperial genocide. The relativism in 40k gets lost in the hard pro imperium angle pushed and swallowed by fans.
And because the Eldar don't really lie any more or less than anyone else, the quote 'Eldar are liars' is a pointless phrase that reinforces a trait that is not theirs to be defined by.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/04 23:54:54
