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I'm looking for advice on expanding my TSons. In 8th I used them purely for soup in the old Supreme Command detachment. I have Arhiman, Daemon Prince, Sorcerer and Magnus. What should I be adding to expand into a battalion or some other usable detachment for 9th? I've got some vehicles that I've yet to paint as I wasn't sure what army I wanted to make them. This includes 2x Hell Blades, Hellforged predator or Scorpius (magnitized). Would these be any good in this army for the upcoming edition? I realize the army rules and points aren't out yet. So I'm purely looking at 9th core rules at this point and the current codex.

Hellforged Pred should be pretty good as a melee threat in 9th, load it up with flamers and just run into things with no fear. The hybrid vehicles that Chaos has been "stuck" with for a long time are getting a big upgrade in general since they can actually use all of their advantages now.

I play TS as my primary army, both pure lists and soup with CSM or Tzeentch Daemons. I would say it is hard to say what is going to be good in 9th with no points, but based on the end of 8th Rubrics and Scarab Terminators were priced about right and were pretty good. Rubrics can be tough for some armies to remove with the 2+ against AP0 D1 weapons. The new stratagems in the PA book are all pretty solid for Rubrics and Scarab Terminators. But again it depends on the points as both were really handicapped in early 8th due to being WAY over-costed. Tzgors I don't think are going to be as good with the blast really hurting them, and their latest price increase did not do them any favors at the end of 8th. I also like hellbrutes (I have the TS ones from old Forgeworld) and based on the SM points leak dreadnought, they should only be going up 10 points for the twin LC and ML variant.

I also think if you are going pure TS, then two patrols is better than one battalion. You lose 2 CP, but it lets you take 4 HQ over 3, and only 2 troops, so unless you are going with lots of elites (6 v 4 slots as elites get more slots on battalion) or troops it is worth the two CP to get an additional HQ, not have to bring an extra troop, and let you take two of the cults (just not two cult artifacts)

Taking into account the missions, I think you'll want a Tzaangor Shaman or two just to have a weak psyker to do secondaries with. It's gonna be real feel bad to use Ahriman on a psychic interrogation, not so much a shaman.

 chimeara wrote:
I'm looking for advice on expanding my TSons. In 8th I used them purely for soup in the old Supreme Command detachment. I have Arhiman, Daemon Prince, Sorcerer and Magnus. What should I be adding to expand into a battalion or some other usable detachment for 9th? I've got some vehicles that I've yet to paint as I wasn't sure what army I wanted to make them. This includes 2x Hell Blades, Hellforged predator or Scorpius (magnitized). Would these be any good in this army for the upcoming edition? I realize the army rules and points aren't out yet. So I'm purely looking at 9th core rules at this point and the current codex.

Tough to say, yea. I love Rubrics. They're great at surviving most things, but the cost will really make or break them. Scarabs are really good. Tzaangors could be a worthy trap for blast weapons after they pick up a 4++ on top of their T4. I love the heck out of Spawn. We synergize with them really well and there might be more opportunity to use them. Melee Enlightened could pick up a win there, too.

Anything Forgeworld will be hit or miss until those books are out. A hellforged predator could be fun with it healing in combat and still shooting. Hell Blades could be great in the Gravis armor meta. Scorpius is great against Primaris, but won't benefit on blast against targets it likes.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Taking into account the missions, I think you'll want a Tzaangor Shaman or two just to have a weak psyker to do secondaries with. It's gonna be real feel bad to use Ahriman on a psychic interrogation, not so much a shaman.

Yea, I think I finally have cause to bring him out again. Especially with the HQ crunch.

I like the idea of using a Shaman for secondary missions. But isn't it an elite slot not an HQ?

I think 5-man rubric squads are going to be the name of the game in 9th personally. maybe 1 ten-man to use stratagems on, but i think tzaangors as a horde melee unit are looking REAL rough right out of the gate.

Rubrics can spam powers, double tap inferno boltguns at 24" range (and shoot twice for 1cp now), are rock solid with the new terrain rules, and never give up Blasts bonuses.

Buy a couple box of rubrics, and build them with 2 Asorcs+inferno boltguns.

 chimeara wrote:
I like the idea of using a Shaman for secondary missions. But isn't it an elite slot not an HQ?

It is probably a good thing if it is an Elite. I believe a lot of TSon armies like those HQs - Ahriman, Daemon Prince, etc. Detachments are going to be a cost to the army in 9th, so if you can get some relief on needing to spill into another one... probably a good thing

Purifying Tempest wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
I like the idea of using a Shaman for secondary missions. But isn't it an elite slot not an HQ?

It is probably a good thing if it is an Elite. I believe a lot of TSon armies like those HQs - Ahriman, Daemon Prince, etc. Detachments are going to be a cost to the army in 9th, so if you can get some relief on needing to spill into another one... probably a good thing

Yup. HQ slots are going to get a lot more limited in 9th, and tsons are nooooooooot good at brigades.

I think 5-man rubric squads are going to be the name of the game in 9th personally. maybe 1 ten-man to use stratagems on, but i think tzaangors as a horde melee unit are looking REAL rough right out of the gate.

Rubrics can spam powers, double tap inferno boltguns at 24" range (and shoot twice for 1cp now), are rock solid with the new terrain rules, and never give up Blasts bonuses.

Buy a couple box of rubrics, and build them with 2 Asorcs+inferno boltguns.

This is what I'm looking at. My 8th ed Tsons start with a core of 3 squads of 10 Rubrics, so I'm looking at breaking those out into 5 man squads instead of 10. I might keep one 10 man for using "risen Rubricae" to hit Infernal Fusilladade" on T1, but it will heavily depend on points. As Daedalus81 mentioned, they are currently pointed about right. If they go up by too much, it becomes a tough call.

Tycho wrote:

I think 5-man rubric squads are going to be the name of the game in 9th personally. maybe 1 ten-man to use stratagems on, but i think tzaangors as a horde melee unit are looking REAL rough right out of the gate.

Rubrics can spam powers, double tap inferno boltguns at 24" range (and shoot twice for 1cp now), are rock solid with the new terrain rules, and never give up Blasts bonuses.

Buy a couple box of rubrics, and build them with 2 Asorcs+inferno boltguns.

This is what I'm looking at. My 8th ed Tsons start with a core of 3 squads of 10 Rubrics, so I'm looking at breaking those out into 5 man squads instead of 10. I might keep one 10 man for using "risen Rubricae" to hit Infernal Fusilladade" on T1, but it will heavily depend on points. As Daedalus81 mentioned, they are currently pointed about right. If they go up by too much, it becomes a tough call.

From the marine leaked point values and the previewed point values that Gw put out, it seems like flamer weapons and single-shot antitank weapons like lascannons and meltas are getting a small points drop or staying about the same, elites are going up by a fairly small amount, and light infantry and blast weaponry is going up by the largest amount.

I'm fairly confident that a rubric will be at or around the same price as a primaris still, and will be about good at that value.

I do not expect basically any light infantry unit to be worth its points in the first round of repointing. GW seems to be wayyyy overestimating the impact of their new morale system for some reason.

From the marine leaked point values and the previewed point values that Gw put out, it seems like flamer weapons and single-shot antitank weapons like lascannons and meltas are getting a small points drop or staying about the same, elites are going up by a fairly small amount, and light infantry and blast weaponry is going up by the largest amount.

I'm fairly confident that a rubric will be at or around the same price as a primaris still, and will be about good at that value.

I do not expect basically any light infantry unit to be worth its points in the first round of repointing. GW seems to be wayyyy overestimating the impact of their new morale system for some reason.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm not expecting a drastic increase, but at the same time, I've been hurt before.

This does seem to be a "anti-light infantry" edition at the start, but I'm guessing that gets altered a bit a few months in. Right now, some armies are borderline unplayable without the light infantry being at least "not terrible".

the_scotsman wrote:


From the marine leaked point values and the previewed point values that Gw put out, it seems like flamer weapons and single-shot antitank weapons like lascannons and meltas are getting a small points drop or staying about the same, elites are going up by a fairly small amount, and light infantry and blast weaponry is going up by the largest amount.

I'm fairly confident that a rubric will be at or around the same price as a primaris still, and will be about good at that value.

I do not expect basically any light infantry unit to be worth its points in the first round of repointing. GW seems to be wayyyy overestimating the impact of their new morale system for some reason.

3x Vindicators w/ Combi-Melta & Havoc seems pretty fun. The melta will help break out with any bad touch (and since when in combat i'm already -1 then I may as well shoot both profiles) and move and shoot on 10" keeps them pretty damned mobile. Bring 3 on from reserves when facing castles and use bombardment with no chance of being foiled from being on table. I have no idea if this will be valuable, but it could be a method to clear objectives on the side you push.

Heldrakes could have some good fun shooting into combat with anything that feels like sticking to the fight, but I think more importantly the Heldrake will be a good secondary scorer.

I'm still putting Tzaangors on the list of to use. T4 4++ is pretty solid if their points don't go too high. Previously there was little stopping Tzaangors from running so you either got into combat and did work or died. Now they can actually hold something without evaporating.

And if 5 Spawn stay around 100 points there's no way I'm not sticking one unit into reserves.

Cult of duplicity rubric bomb looks extremely strong in the new mission format where you deploy before knowing who's going first.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Cult of duplicity rubric bomb looks extremely strong in the new mission format where you deploy before knowing who's going first.

Yea armies with those abilities just got cutting edge for sure.

Yea I have been playing cult of duplicity and the cult power is amazing, especially in objective mission. I expect duplicity to become the mainstay cult for at least the beginning of 9th. The ability to move anywhere outside of 9" to enemy is great for grabbing objectives, killing weak back line units on enemy objectives (or who are doing an action etc.), holding table quarters, etc. It also lets you maneuver the scarabs without worrying about their 4" move.

Personally I think 10 Rubrics will be the right amount. Giving up the extra 2 hits on a blast for min 3 only really affects a roll of 1 or 2 so to me does not have that much impact. Having the extra guys for the double shoot stratagem is big, and even without it when you teleport to the back line you want to make sure you have enough shots to finish the back line squad. I probably wouldn't do my "Ru-brick" 20 man squad anymore cause max hits is a much bigger deal.

Tzaangors are t4 5++ IIRC. Unless you're assuming they always have weaver on?

I'm basing my assumption that their points will rise higher relative to other things on the preview of Intercessor vs Cultist and the fact that in the leaked space marine point previews, Scouts and bizarrely Servitors had a much higher percentage rise than pretty much any other marine units. Scouts at 14ppm, tacticals at 15ppm, and servitors jumping from 4ppm to 7ppm.

If we're living in a world where servitors see a 75% points bump while aggressors and intercessors see a 25% points bump I'm not optimistic about Tzaangaroos relative to Rubricae.

I think a 20-man squad is the way to go no question, against armies without redeploy themselves you can win the game T1 if you win the roll-off to go first and they don't respect that possibility, and if they do, you just don't deploy that way and you get a huge advantage on the mission because they had to hide way back. If they really want to shoot blast stuff at a unit that has a -1 to hit and a 2++, 3++ against D2+ stuff...go for it imo, that's a win for you too.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I think a 20-man squad is the way to go no question, against armies without redeploy themselves you can win the game T1 if you win the roll-off to go first and they don't respect that possibility, and if they do, you just don't deploy that way and you get a huge advantage on the mission because they had to hide way back. If they really want to shoot blast stuff at a unit that has a -1 to hit and a 2++, 3++ against D2+ stuff...go for it imo, that's a win for you too.

Why and how would a thousand sons unit have a 2++?

They start at a 5++ and can be at best a 3++ (vs d1 and with Weaver up).

the_scotsman wrote:
Tzaangors are t4 5++ IIRC. Unless you're assuming they always have weaver on?

I'm basing my assumption that their points will rise higher relative to other things on the preview of Intercessor vs Cultist and the fact that in the leaked space marine point previews, Scouts and bizarrely Servitors had a much higher percentage rise than pretty much any other marine units. Scouts at 14ppm, tacticals at 15ppm, and servitors jumping from 4ppm to 7ppm.

If we're living in a world where servitors see a 75% points bump while aggressors and intercessors see a 25% points bump I'm not optimistic about Tzaangaroos relative to Rubricae.

Yea, Weaver on (when the situation calls for it). They'll be really points dependent for sure. Necrons went up only 1, so, it may be that marines are taking the largest increases. Oh well - 3 days to go, I guess.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Tzaangors are t4 5++ IIRC. Unless you're assuming they always have weaver on?

I'm basing my assumption that their points will rise higher relative to other things on the preview of Intercessor vs Cultist and the fact that in the leaked space marine point previews, Scouts and bizarrely Servitors had a much higher percentage rise than pretty much any other marine units. Scouts at 14ppm, tacticals at 15ppm, and servitors jumping from 4ppm to 7ppm.

If we're living in a world where servitors see a 75% points bump while aggressors and intercessors see a 25% points bump I'm not optimistic about Tzaangaroos relative to Rubricae.

Yea, Weaver on (when the situation calls for it). They'll be really points dependent for sure. Necrons went up only 1, so, it may be that marines are taking the largest increases. Oh well - 3 days to go, I guess.

Theoretically, GW could have decided that servitors merit the single highest percentage point jump in the entire game. I suppose that is true.

...by a solid 30%, compared to the next highest percentage increase, which is I believe the Thunderfire cannon.

the_scotsman wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
I think a 20-man squad is the way to go no question, against armies without redeploy themselves you can win the game T1 if you win the roll-off to go first and they don't respect that possibility, and if they do, you just don't deploy that way and you get a huge advantage on the mission because they had to hide way back. If they really want to shoot blast stuff at a unit that has a -1 to hit and a 2++, 3++ against D2+ stuff...go for it imo, that's a win for you too.

Why and how would a thousand sons unit have a 2++?

They start at a 5++ and can be at best a 3++ (vs d1 and with Weaver up).

Did you miss the PA strat?

yukishiro1 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
I think a 20-man squad is the way to go no question, against armies without redeploy themselves you can win the game T1 if you win the roll-off to go first and they don't respect that possibility, and if they do, you just don't deploy that way and you get a huge advantage on the mission because they had to hide way back. If they really want to shoot blast stuff at a unit that has a -1 to hit and a 2++, 3++ against D2+ stuff...go for it imo, that's a win for you too.

Why and how would a thousand sons unit have a 2++?

They start at a 5++ and can be at best a 3++ (vs d1 and with Weaver up).

Did you miss the PA strat?

Ah - there it is.

dang, I really wish when people did these little tactical discussions they would put

"-Assuming you always have this psychic power, that psychic power, and this stratagem up on the unit" at the end.

Guardsmen are insane, they have 3A S4, LD9, shoot 4 shots rerolling 1s, t3 4+sv for 5pts??*

*assuming you are catachans, in range of straken, a priest, and commissar yarrick, and have an officer order them to FRFSRF, and use the "Get Down" stratagem on them.

the_scotsman wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
I think a 20-man squad is the way to go no question, against armies without redeploy themselves you can win the game T1 if you win the roll-off to go first and they don't respect that possibility, and if they do, you just don't deploy that way and you get a huge advantage on the mission because they had to hide way back. If they really want to shoot blast stuff at a unit that has a -1 to hit and a 2++, 3++ against D2+ stuff...go for it imo, that's a win for you too.

Why and how would a thousand sons unit have a 2++?

They start at a 5++ and can be at best a 3++ (vs d1 and with Weaver up).

Did you miss the PA strat?

Ah - there it is.

dang, I really wish when people did these little tactical discussions they would put

"-Assuming you always have this psychic power, that psychic power, and this stratagem up on the unit" at the end.

Guardsmen are insane, they have 3A S4, LD9, shoot 4 shots rerolling 1s, t3 4+sv for 5pts??*

*assuming you are catachans, in range of straken, a priest, and commissar yarrick, and have an officer order them to FRFSRF, and use the "Get Down" stratagem on them.

I mean.. thousand sons have the means to get these buffs down. Between ahrimans +1 tp cast and gaze of fate, youre pretty assured to get weaver of fates on them at the very least, then you pay 1CP and you end up with the 2++/3++ rubrics

Putting two psychic powers up on a unit is hardly difficult for Tsons, and a 1CP strat that you don't even have to activate till they get shot is the definition of easy. I'm sorry you couldn't follow the discussion, I guess I assumed a level of familiarity that wasn't warranted.

So, I'll pick up some Rubrics and some Tzaangors and some Terminators. Maybe a box of sorcerers. I'm gonna jam the flamer Hellforged predator see if I like that.

Terminators are iffy IMO because the 2W profile really doesn't go well with the all is dust rule, because you really want to be moving to get the combat value out of them but then you don't get the shoot twice strat which is much better...etc etc. I want to like them, but they just don't have a rules package that meshes together well. They end up doing everything decently but nothing particularly well.

The one thing they do do is put the same shooting as 20 rubrics on only 10 bodies, so that does possibly have some value if blast weapons really do become a huge thing. But I'm not convinced it makes up for the limitations.

Daemon princes still >> sorcs imo, having the melee blender on your casters is just so useful for an army that doesn't have anything else to really blend stuff. You gotta learn how to use them and not throw them away stupidly but it's a huge bonus.

I've already got a DP. I just need sorcerers or exalted sorcerers to help fill out the HQ slots. I'm trying to figure out how many Tzaangor Shaman I need to get. I was thinking just one, but redundancy is a thing. I don't plan on taking this to any huge event or anything. So I'm not looking for max optimized list or anything. I would like to be at least, what I call RTT ready.

Ahriman + 2 DP is generally the competitive HQ choice. Exalted sorcs and sorcs aren't terrible, they're just generally not considered cheaper enough to be worth it.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Ahriman + 2 DP is generally the competitive HQ choice. Exalted sorcs and sorcs aren't terrible, they're just generally not considered cheaper enough to be worth it.

Terminator Sorcerers are pretty solid for drop-in support. DP w/ wings price increase I think makes enough difference.