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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

How do an organization composed only of marines get any kind of intelligence?

Their supplements go into pretty specific detail about this. Personal intelligence is acquired where possible (largely by on the ground human operatives in service to the Deathwatch), but they do a *ton* of surveillance and analytics. Watch Stations and Fortresses are deployed to monitor entire sectors to scan communications, shipping and other "mundane" acts of interstellar life for indications of alien influence.

Furthermore, there is a specific specialism for Astartes intelligence gatherers: the Kill-marine. From Lexicanum, the more reliable of the two fan wikis.

Not every xenos-related crisis demands the full deployment of a Deathwatch Kill-team, but many seemingly inconsequential incidents can be harbingers of a greater threat that would be foolhardy to ignore. Under these kinds of circumstances a Watch Captain may elect to send a single Space Marine, a specially trained "Kill-marine" skilled in solo operations, to investigate and exterminate where possible or to call in backup where it is truly needed.

Kill-marines are naturally denied the reliable supporting firepower of their Battle-Brothers and fall back on the stealth and infiltration techniques they first mastered as Scout/Initiates to perform their duties.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

How do an organization composed only of marines get any kind of intelligence?

In addition to the above they also eat brains.

Monitor communications, drop to a command center, storm it and nom nom nom nom nom.

Are sisters of battle on par with space marines?

Not at all - they're Toughness 3.

I always viewed them as stormtroopers with better gear + paladin tier powers. Their old 3rd / 4th edition Codex is my favorite book of theirs!


They tend to get butchered a lot in the fluff

Out of curiosity, outside of the Cain Novels, their omni-bus, and several of the Dawn of... series, I haven't heard of them in the fluff very often. They sure die a lot in several Cain Books, but what other fluff do they die a lot in? Usually they are ass-kicking baddasses. The Dawn of series, the book with the 5 Custodians and a squad of Sisters, where they have to find a daemon thing, they are each basically a force of nature. Even the Custodes nod to their bravery and competency.

Sanctuary 101 was the Imperium's first contact with the Necrons and the Sisters were massacred. Helsreach has its SoB massacred by orks, the Canoness is quite brutally killed IIRC. Daemonifuge has all but Ephrael Stern from that order killed I believe.
Generally SoB are called on to massacres that are too important for just Guard.

Necrons massacre pretty much everyone. 75% of people on Helsreach get massacred in that book. I'm not saying they are the Custodes, but let's not make them out to be conscripts. Who's literal purpose to to get massacred and buy time for the big guns.

The Sisters did go back to Sanctuary 101 and comically ROFLstomp the Necrons in return, so there's that...

...and then the Necrons came back again and killed the Sisters again, because nostalgia sells, I guess.

*sigh* Necrons do not massacre everyone all the time. In fact there are quite a few instances where humans are enslaved for creepy experiments and general slave labour. Some Necrons keep them alive so they don't rule over empty fiefdoms.
75% of the Helsreach population and the armed forces stationed there don't get massacred since a sizable portion of the population lives to rebuild the Hive during the Season of Fire.
As for Dawn of Fire, it's the veteran Sisters that accompany the Custodes to disrupt the big Daemon gun and the thing the Custodes note more is their dangerous religious zeal.
Sisters getting massacred is much more of a meme than a fact but they did used to get carped on because they were the cursed, unloved, metal middle child between Guard and Space Marines

Don't forget early Necron Lore was very much "Tomb awakens, mindless robots kill everyone, tomb goes back to sleep". They were totally alien, totally unknown and very singular in their approach.

Tyranids were the same, early lore all they did was eat




Now we have Necrons with personalities holding banquets; collecting zoo exhibits; rebuilding empires; arguing with each other and being best friends with marines against the Tyranids

Tyranids are building whole planets (well one) and doing other strange things like pre-digesting worlds for other Tyranid Swarms etc...




As the lore expands and grows it gains depth so early impressions and tropes become steadily more and more out-dated as they are often very short, very focused impressions of a force, not all encompassing.

 Gert wrote:
Sanctuary 101 was the Imperium's first contact with the Necrons and the Sisters were massacred. Helsreach has its SoB massacred by orks, the Canoness is quite brutally killed IIRC. Daemonifuge has all but Ephrael Stern from that order killed I believe.
Generally SoB are called on to massacres that are too important for just Guard.

Sanctuary 101 was based on an battle report from the end of 2nd edition, where an oversized necron army was pitted against a defending sisters force.

To put that in some perspective on the cron codex 'balance' the sisters managed to kill roughly one model per turn, and if the necron player had sent his scarabs against the infantry rather than the tank (which they immediately blew up on contact, killing themselves), then the sisters would have been quickly overrun as they literally could not inflict damage on them hand to hand.

The game ended when an unarmed reanimated warrior started punching his way through the lines and the cron player (who hadn't used them before) realised he could have won the game at any time by simply running straight at the sisters. It was so absurdly one-sided that it became part of the lore, similar to a number of other battle reports back in the day - Vandire was also a re-used battle report character.

Also, the Necron KILL KILL KILL, SLEEEEEP is a meme yes, but I think the personality thing is well, just for the basic troops. Yes, the Warriors and little bug things are mindless killers, maybe the wraiths as well.

But haven't the ruling castes always had personalities? Or is that something that was just shoehorned in recently?

Also, I would second the notion that the Bugs are a far more mindless killer meme than the Necrons are. The Necrons at least have a end plan. The bugs don't seem to care if they wipe all life out, they just want to eat.

"They just want to eat"

I prefer "They want to make everything Tyranid". Total galactic (universal) assimilation into the Hive Mind.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Also, the Necron KILL KILL KILL, SLEEEEEP is a meme yes, but I think the personality thing is well, just for the basic troops. Yes, the Warriors and little bug things are mindless killers, maybe the wraiths as well.

But haven't the ruling castes always had personalities? Or is that something that was just shoehorned in recently?

Also, I would second the notion that the Bugs are a far more mindless killer meme than the Necrons are. The Necrons at least have a end plan. The bugs don't seem to care if they wipe all life out, they just want to eat.

Even in 3rd the Lords did have some personality, though not as much as now and they were still slaves of the C’tan.

For example (Xenology spoilers)

 Insectum7 wrote:
"They just want to eat"

I prefer "They want to make everything Tyranid". Total galactic (universal) assimilation into the Hive Mind.

But it's not assimilation though is it? The Hive Mind isn't adding races to its collective like the Borg, it's consuming them and sometimes uses their genetics to craft new Biomorphs. Those races and their technology aren't preserved, they're entirely destroyed.
It's only assimilation in the sense of consumption at which point it's easier and more accurate to just say consumption.

 Gert wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
"They just want to eat"

I prefer "They want to make everything Tyranid". Total galactic (universal) assimilation into the Hive Mind.

But it's not assimilation though is it? The Hive Mind isn't adding races to its collective like the Borg, it's consuming them and sometimes uses their genetics to craft new Biomorphs. Those races and their technology aren't preserved, they're entirely destroyed.
It's only assimilation in the sense of consumption at which point it's easier and more accurate to just say consumption.

Consumption does not connote the processing and re-use of genetic information though. Assimilate is probably more accurate.

Thing is you're not actually made into more Tyranids. You're made into biomatter. You only get made into a living Tyranid IF the Hive Mind needs you in that state of being. In theory if the Hive Mind never encountered a military threat they'd never make any Tyranids; they could just make fat hive ships that would get bloated feeding on worlds, gas giants, suns and all.

 BertBert wrote:
Consumption does not connote the processing and re-use of genetic information though. Assimilate is probably more accurate.

But that is not the primary focus of the Tyranid's consumption of Biomatter, it's to increase the size of the swarm. The use of certain genetic material is a side benefit and not the primary drive of the Hive Mind.
To say that the Tyranids want to assimilate the galaxy ignores all but one of the definitions of "assimilation" and even then it's not accurate:

The Tyranids only take in information regarding combating prey species (i.e. everyone) and to a degree infiltration (although this always feeds back to combat). The assimilation of tactics doesn't count because every single faction does this.
They certainly don't have a culture considering the Hive Mind is a single being controlling many billions of "limbs" as it were, so that's a no.


This is the only one that remotely associates with the Tyranids methods and it's just a fancy term for "eat".


The Tyranids don't become similar to the species they consume, they are still objectively the one species.
If we contrast this with a race like the Borg who go by this little declaration:

"We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."

That fits both points of definition 1 and to a degree fits with definition 3 as the greater number of certain species assimilated by the Borg the more they come to widely resemble that species. Plus they don't break a lifeform down into its basic Biomatter, they inject probes and forcibly turn that lifeform into a Borg to the point where the final stage of assimilation fully rewrites the lifeform's genetic code and they no longer identify as their original species when bio-scanned.

 Gert wrote:
...

Assimilation covers the eating, processing of information and possible re-use of said information, while consumption only covers the eating part. It's less specific and less accurate as a result. Tyraninds don't just consume, they use collected genetic information to create new biomorphs/-forms and improve upon existing ones.

 BertBert wrote:

Assimilation covers the eating, processing of information and possible re-use of said information, while consumption only covers the eating part. It's less specific and less accurate as a result. Tyraninds don't just consume, they use collected genetic information to create new biomorphs/-forms and improve upon existing ones.

But it's not the primary goal of the consumption and the Hive Mind is capable of making Biomorphs and improving Bioforms without the use of assimilated genetic code. I'm not saying the Tyranids don't assimilate certain things, I'm saying that the primary goal of the Hive Mind isn't to assimilate the Milky Way, it's to consume all sentient life.

 Gert wrote:

 BertBert wrote:

Assimilation covers the eating, processing of information and possible re-use of said information, while consumption only covers the eating part. It's less specific and less accurate as a result. Tyraninds don't just consume, they use collected genetic information to create new biomorphs/-forms and improve upon existing ones.

But it's not the primary goal of the consumption and the Hive Mind is capable of making Biomorphs and improving Bioforms without the use of assimilated genetic code. I'm not saying the Tyranids don't assimilate certain things, I'm saying that the primary goal of the Hive Mind isn't to assimilate the Milky Way, it's to consume all sentient life.

Fair enough, I can see that angle. If the consumption of the milky way is the main goal, you could consider assimilation a means to that end. Then again, we know little about the Hive Mind's motivations and goals, or if it even has any concept of either.

Anyway, if you wanted to state a goal for the hive mind, "assimilation of all sentient life" would still be more precise imo for the reasons I mentioned.

But again the use of certain species' genetic material isn't the main way the Hive Mind adapts its Biomorphs for specific enemies, it still uses them but it doesn't need Space Marine DNA to generate a tougher carapace or Aeldari DNA to improve the Psychic capability of Zoanthropes. On top of that these species still don't become part of the Tyranid race, some of their genetic material does and it's not preserved, it's adapted.
When the Tyranids attack a world they're not looking to assimilate Human DNA into the gene pool to add improvements, they're looking to add Biomass to increase the size of the swarm and to feed.
It is a difficult definition but when we compare it to something like the Borg or Cybermen who take full lifeforms and adapt them into their own species which is assimilation in the fullest sense, I'd still argue the Tyranids aren't looking to assimilate the galaxy.

 Gert wrote:
But again the use of certain species' genetic material isn't the main way the Hive Mind adapts its Biomorphs for specific enemies, it still uses them but it doesn't need Space Marine DNA to generate a tougher carapace or Aeldari DNA to improve the Psychic capability of Zoanthropes. On top of that these species still don't become part of the Tyranid race, some of their genetic material does and it's not preserved, it's adapted.
When the Tyranids attack a world they're not looking to assimilate Human DNA into the gene pool to add improvements, they're looking to add Biomass to increase the size of the swarm and to feed.
It is a difficult definition but when we compare it to something like the Borg or Cybermen who take full lifeforms and adapt them into their own species which is assimilation in the fullest sense, I'd still argue the Tyranids aren't looking to assimilate the galaxy.

True, it's difficult and Borg certainly have a different approach, but I believe both are fairly well described by the term despite their differences. I think we can leave it at that as it's not a very important distinction after all, but I appreciate the nerd talk as always

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Out of curiosity, outside of the Cain Novels, their omni-bus, and several of the Dawn of... series, I haven't heard of them in the fluff very often. They sure die a lot in several Cain Books, but what other fluff do they die a lot in? Usually they are ass-kicking baddasses.

Eh, sisters are badass in Cain books too. There is even a scene where Cain notices a figure in power armour and nearly pisses his pants before noticing it's a sister. The narration of them is just biased because Cain is pretty much an atheist in drilled, forcibly regimented organization and doesn't think highly of someone who is pretty much opposite to this. Hell, Cain even thinks one particular battle involved a company of space marines given how competent, accurate and fast moving winning side was only to learn later is was actually a few squads of sisters.

 Gert wrote:
It is a difficult definition but when we compare it to something like the Borg or Cybermen who take full lifeforms and adapt them into their own species which is assimilation in the fullest sense, I'd still argue the Tyranids aren't looking to assimilate the galaxy.

Except you don't know that. For all we know hive mind reads minds of everything it devours and preserves that knowledge. Ditto with genetic material, it's possible everything is preserved and the 'evolution' is just hive mind looking at all collected templates and drawing solutions from them. This is pretty much canon, too, seeing multiple factions expended a lot of resources to prevent tyranids from eating species X or Y due to dangerous traits they have, pretty much proving it's not just biomass the hive mind is after, but also adding new genetic information to itself.

 Irbis wrote:
Except you don't know that. For all we know hive mind reads minds of everything it devours and preserves that knowledge. Ditto with genetic material, it's possible everything is preserved and the 'evolution' is just hive mind looking at all collected templates and drawing solutions from them. This is pretty much canon, too, seeing multiple factions expended a lot of resources to prevent tyranids from eating species X or Y due to dangerous traits they have, pretty much proving it's not just biomass the hive mind is after, but also adding new genetic information to itself.

But the Hive Mind isn't using these species' DNA to improve the Bioforms to create a harmonious society/culture nor does it seem to be seeking a specific philosophical goal such as the attainment of perfection. Thus far it's been shown to direct forces to consume life for the sole purpose of feeding/growing the swarm and in the case of the Blood Angels and Baal, revenge of some sort. If the Hive Mind was deliberately seeking to assimilate lifeforms different from itself, especially ones with interesting or beneficiary genetic traits, then we would see more pronounced movements towards certain parts of the galaxy where species like the Hrud or Barghesi. It could be argued that the Hive Mind views time differently from most species and believes that eventually it will assimilate/consume all life so doesn't see the need to rush but that's just theory.
The other races of the galaxy seeking to deprive the Tyranids of species like the Barghesi and Hrud is because these species have traits that can be assimilated into the Tyranid genome but doesn't prove that the primary goal of the Hive Mind is assimilation.
I feel like people are seeing my posts and deciding that I think the Tyranids just don't assimilate, which isn't true and I have said as much. All I'm saying is that I disagree with the premise that the Hive Mind's primary goal in the Milky Way is to assimilate other species genetics into the Tyranid genome.

 Irbis wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Out of curiosity, outside of the Cain Novels, their omni-bus, and several of the Dawn of... series, I haven't heard of them in the fluff very often. They sure die a lot in several Cain Books, but what other fluff do they die a lot in? Usually they are ass-kicking baddasses.

Eh, sisters are badass in Cain books too. There is even a scene where Cain notices a figure in power armour and nearly pisses his pants before noticing it's a sister. The narration of them is just biased because Cain is pretty much an atheist in drilled, forcibly regimented organization and doesn't think highly of someone who is pretty much opposite to this. Hell, Cain even thinks one particular battle involved a company of space marines given how competent, accurate and fast moving winning side was only to learn later is was actually a few squads of sisters..

Yep - Sisters do die in several Cain novels but they are extremely powerful in them and generate awe in his (Elite/veteran) comrades.

He does not like their preference for charging into the midst of enemies but notes how effective they are when they do so.

 Overread wrote:
Thing is you're not actually made into more Tyranids. You're made into biomatter. You only get made into a living Tyranid IF the Hive Mind needs you in that state of being. In theory if the Hive Mind never encountered a military threat they'd never make any Tyranids; they could just make fat hive ships that would get bloated feeding on worlds, gas giants, suns and all.

The hive ships are still Tyranids. It's all a giant superorganism.

Eat/assimilate/yuks, regardless of how you want to define the motivation, the end result is the same. All life in the galaxy gets turned into Nid. Galactic-wide superorganism. . . Except Nids may also be doing the same in other galaxies too. Universe-wide superorganism (if Nids manage it before the eventual heat-death).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:

But the Hive Mind isn't using these species' DNA to improve the Bioforms to create a harmonious society/culture nor does it seem to be seeking a specific philosophical goal such as the attainment of perfection.

They're all one mind, so their 'society' is harmonious .

There's no reason to fixate on culture or society, anyway. The word "assimilate" is broader than that and cleaving to a sub-definition from one dictionary's entry for the word -- to reflect a specific vernacular usage within the study of sociology -- is needlessly specific.

For all we know the Hivemind wants to build a utopian monoculture once it has permanently eliminated the possibility of competition.

"Assimilate" is basically a synonym for "absorb" and is a more accurate word to use than "consume" (which often connotes the exhaustion or destruction of the material in question -- Tyranids are gathering material, not eliminating it).

 Gert wrote:
*sigh* Necrons do not massacre everyone all the time. In fact there are quite a few instances where humans are enslaved for creepy experiments and general slave labour. Some Necrons keep them alive so they don't rule over empty fiefdoms.

Sure, but there are uotes from timelines in dexes which state that the Sisters at Sanctuary 101 were killed. The batrep is called "Massacre at Sanctuary 101" if memory serves.

 Gert wrote:

75% of the Helsreach population and the armed forces stationed there don't get massacred since a sizable portion of the population lives to rebuild the Hive during the Season of Fire.

Sure, but again, the lore specifically states half of the sisters that fought in the battle were martyred, leading the order to add red to their livery.

 Gert wrote:

As for Dawn of Fire, it's the veteran Sisters that accompany the Custodes to disrupt the big Daemon gun and the thing the Custodes note more is their dangerous religious zeal.

Can't speak to this as I haven't read it yet.

 Gert wrote:

Sisters getting massacred is much more of a meme than a fact but they did used to get carped on because they were the cursed, unloved, metal middle child between Guard and Space Marines

No, it's fact as much as meme. Not only did the mass martyrdom mentioned above actually occur, there are literally mechanics in the dex to represent martyrdom, and it is considered an honour. I think all six founding Matrons were martyred, but at least four were for sure. And that whole Grey Knights killing them to anoint themselves in their blood thing... Like they even get killed by other Imperials!

The massacre of sisters is well and truly documented in canonical lore AND supported by rules.

Martyrdom doesn't require a massacre, it only requires that you die in the name of a cause. Its why enemy leaders are so often captured rather than killed in warfare so as not to give the opposing side a figure to rally around and encourage them to fight on.