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A reflection on an aspect of writing where the prequels were superior to the original trilogy, seldom recognized: Anakin was ensnared. Luke was bantered.

That's... an amazing generous reading of the 'ensnarement.' That entire sequence was labored and obvious, to the point that Palpy basically had a discussion about actually being the Sith Lord during the Cirque de Aqua-Soleil sequence.
Annie just sort of shrugs and goes along with mass murdering kids. Rather than have Padme just go to a fricking doctor.


As for Luke... immediately serving Palpatine is a little weak. But the Dark Side reasoning is right there:
fear- everybody is going to die
attachment to loved ones- Dad and Leia. And what they're going to do to Leia if Luke refuses
anger- he's really rather angry about all this- and actually acts it all out during the scene.

Yes, he actually is being tempted toward the dark side.
He has little reason to join Palpatine at that point, true, but he's also completely in Palpy's power, and Palpy would have all the time in the world to work him over, building up that fear, anger and etc.

Keep in mind in context that Vader's injuries and cybernetics didn't have elaborate backstories- they could have easily been from what the Emperor did to him.

These days the path to the Dark Side starts at the feet of Darth Mouse...

Doesn't really hold up because Anakin didn't fall to the dark side in RotS. He fell to the dark side in AotC, when he murdered an entire tribe of people, including their children, for no reason other than petty revenge. By that point he had already passed the "despair event horizon" and his fate was sealed- RotS was just an affirmation of the fall.

Perhaps the biggest tragedy of the prequels from a writing perspective is that Anakin never really "fell" to the dark side. He leapt. There was never any real point in the trilogy where Anakin is shown as being virtuous and genuinely buying into the Jedi ideals. He's shady from the very start of AotC.

At least with Anakin, the plausible story elements are there, but they were just so badly executed by Lucas, or buried under too much other stuff, to really work together.
For Luke, the implication within the movies is that once you fall to the Dark Side, you are now forever bound by it and thus Luke would serve the "head" of the Dark Side (Palpatine). It's worth keeping in mind that the original trilogy was far more simplistic in its presentation, as it didn't have 20+ years of books and extended mythology published for it.

I think the RotJ scene is one of those moments really weakened by the gamification of Star Wars. Over the years, Force Lightning is such a cool power that we want to be able to use, its been reduced to this kind of simple magic missile. In the original context it was a sign that for all his frailty, the Emperor was actually more powerful than Luke could ever hope to overcome, which is part of that "feels right" idea.

There was 100% something stopping Luke from cutting down Palpatine, and that was Palpatine. Had Luke given in and killed his father, then turned his rage on the Emperor, Palpatine would have held his saber at bay with the Force and electrocuted him into a wimpering pile unable to do anything but watch helplessly as his friends are killed and the rebellion crushed. Luke's only options at this point are servitude or death, even if that service is fueled by the hope for vengence.

You actually see this in the film through Vader. As strong and terrifying as he's been, when it comes to the might of Palpatine, he's completely broken. He sees resistance as futile and knows that if he opposes his master he won't be killed, but simply broken and put back together until he learns his place.

That's one of my FAVORITE things in TLJ fwiw. I love that Snoke is depicted as truly omnipotent. Neither Rey nor Kylo have any means of overpowering him and his downfall completely comes down to Kylo understanding his power and manipulating his thoughts to use it against him. In all of the EU, its the only time I've felt someone really got the terror of a Sith Lord right. It's not the lightning or the choking or the red energy blade, but complete domination and shattering of will that makes the Dark Side truly terrifying.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Doesn't really hold up because Anakin didn't fall to the dark side in RotS. He fell to the dark side in AotC, when he murdered an entire tribe of people, including their children, for no reason other than petty revenge. By that point he had already passed the "despair event horizon" and his fate was sealed- RotS was just an affirmation of the fall.

Perhaps the biggest tragedy of the prequels from a writing perspective is that Anakin never really "fell" to the dark side. He leapt. There was never any real point in the trilogy where Anakin is shown as being virtuous and genuinely buying into the Jedi ideals. He's shady from the very start of AotC.

Yeah, true on both counts. He's a creepy thug from the get go- bonding reminisces rejected, whining about his teacher 'holding him back,' jackboots authoritarianism: 'Jedi business, move along.' Everything is already slotted in.
Mass murder and a naked desire for total control.. honestly Obi-wan's wistful fondness for him in New Hope is just baffling once the prequels happened.

And I get the rage in the Tusken camp. Kill the guards and any torturers in the tent? Fine.
But he found her alive. Stopping to indulge in a slaughter of absolutely everyone rather than a desperate race to get her back to medical attention even if its hopeless? That says volumes about his character.

Voss wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Doesn't really hold up because Anakin didn't fall to the dark side in RotS. He fell to the dark side in AotC, when he murdered an entire tribe of people, including their children, for no reason other than petty revenge. By that point he had already passed the "despair event horizon" and his fate was sealed- RotS was just an affirmation of the fall.

Perhaps the biggest tragedy of the prequels from a writing perspective is that Anakin never really "fell" to the dark side. He leapt. There was never any real point in the trilogy where Anakin is shown as being virtuous and genuinely buying into the Jedi ideals. He's shady from the very start of AotC.

Yeah, true on both counts. He's a creepy thug from the get go- bonding reminisces rejected, whining about his teacher 'holding him back,' jackboots authoritarianism: 'Jedi business, move along.' Everything is already slotted in.
Mass murder and a naked desire for total control.. honestly Obi-wan's wistful fondness for him in New Hope is just baffling once the prequels happened.

I wonder how much of that is Ob-Wan trying (and mostly succeeding) in forgetting as many of the bad bits as he could. After all, it was his pupil who went off the genocidal deep end. He’s got to have some baggage over that. Could he have seen it? Could he have prevented it? His failure as a Jedi Master basically doomed everyone. It could be the only way to stay sane is to focus on the good parts. His friendship, the good they did together. So on one level he acknowledges what happened, but has moved all that onto the persona of Vader, keeping Anakin “clean”. And he’s not responsable for anything Vader did, that’s all on the Emperor.

It makes sense, from a certain point of view...

It doesn't. He has to 'forget' watching a video of his personal student slaughtering children- children that Obi knew and interacted with.

If he can forget that and 'focus on the good parts', he's just a terrible person

 LunarSol wrote:
I think the RotJ scene is one of those moments really weakened by the gamification of Star Wars. Over the years, Force Lightning is such a cool power that we want to be able to use, its been reduced to this kind of simple magic missile. In the original context it was a sign that for all his frailty, the Emperor was actually more powerful than Luke could ever hope to overcome, which is part of that "feels right" idea.

There was 100% something stopping Luke from cutting down Palpatine, and that was Palpatine. Had Luke given in and killed his father, then turned his rage on the Emperor, Palpatine would have held his saber at bay with the Force and electrocuted him into a wimpering pile unable to do anything but watch helplessly as his friends are killed and the rebellion crushed. Luke's only options at this point are servitude or death, even if that service is fueled by the hope for vengence.

You actually see this in the film through Vader. As strong and terrifying as he's been, when it comes to the might of Palpatine, he's completely broken. He sees resistance as futile and knows that if he opposes his master he won't be killed, but simply broken and put back together until he learns his place.

This is so well said and 100% accurate. Reading the meme/infographic posted in the OP, I was really rolling my eyes. One of the deeper problems with the PT is Lucas seemed to forget or perhaps never really got how the Dark Side worked in the OT. It didn’t require your consent. You never voluntarily made a conscious choice to “turn.” When Luke is kicking and screaming about never joining the Emperor, the Emperor just laughs. It isn’t until Luke gets control over his rage and throws away his weapon that the Emperor is infuriated. The whole drama of Anakin’s fall as depicted in the PT completely misses the point.

The best thing that the EU ever hinted at was this:

Individual actions do not happen in a bubble- striking down, say- a child-murdering cannibal whose last victim was your best friend isn't comparable to killing someone who simply stood in the way of your selfish goals.

Emotions don't make you go to the Dark Side- being unable to think rationally and letting your emotions overwhelm you like an immature lunatic is a path to the dark side.

Loving someone and having a spouse/lover isn't a bad thing, it's when you believe you have ownership of them it becomes a problem- As in, loving someone means you love them no matter if the are 'yours' or not. One of those "I love this person, so I want them to be happy" is more important than "I love this person, I never want to be apart from them and will never let them go" situations.

"The Dark Side" of the Force was never really an 'aspect of the force', it was a part of peoples' nature. Individuals' own actions and intentions were what made something 'Dark Side'. I mean- I personally think snatching kids up and indoctrinating them into a cult and never letting them return to their family or having their own family is pretty 'dark', but to each their own. At least the Sith were honest about being jerks.

Also, it always bothered me that Jedi should have some degree of empathy and understanding- yet had to suppress their emotions and often were portrayed as ignoring them. At a certain point, they become unrelatable. I'm not sure why anyone would consider them a valid voice in politics or see them as fit to lead an army to war (not every unit was clones or droids).

 Manchu wrote:
One of the deeper problems with the PT is Lucas seemed to forget or perhaps never really got how the Dark Side worked in the OT. It didn’t require your consent. You never voluntarily made a conscious choice to “turn.” When Luke is kicking and screaming about never joining the Emperor, the Emperor just laughs. It isn’t until Luke gets control over his rage and throws away his weapon that the Emperor is infuriated. The whole drama of Anakin’s fall as depicted in the PT completely misses the point.

Part of the problem and one that's almost entirely the fault of the PT is that we've simply never gotten a good story of a character falling to the Dark Side. The Sith have always been pretty evil characters, sometimes with a tragic backstory that fuels motivations of vengeance, but we've never seen the tragic fall played out that well. It's another one of those gamification things where you earn your Dark Side Points until your eyes glow red and you can shoot lightning. Most of the time we see it from a perspective where it assumes the audience has already chosen a side. Will you A) feed the homeless man or B) throw him off a cliff? It's just always presented as "do you want to wear the white hat or the black one?" rather than the dilemma that made the throne scene of RotJ so tense and memorable.