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Karanak's Prey of the Blood God rule reads:

When both armies have been set up, choose one enemy CHARACTER on the battlefield. You can add 1 to hit and wound rolls for Karanak's attacks when they target this character.

If you summon Karanak rather than including him directly in your army, does this mean this ability is simply lost? Or can you still declare it at the appropriate time, as in "if I summon Karanak, this is going to be his target?"

My sense is that you simply lose it, because he isn't yet in your army, but I can also kinda see the argument that says that you can, because it doesn't say anything about him having to be in the army/on the table/ etc to make the selection.

This is kinda similar to the issue with Epidemius, which GW FAQed to make clear that the ticker starts at 0 and only starts ticking up when Epidemius is placed on the battlefield (whether through deployment, deepstrike, or summoning).

How are you using "Prey of the Blood God" if that rule does not exist in the game at the time "When both armies have been set up"?

If Karanak is not a part of your army, you cant use his rules.

I'm inclined to agree, but for the sake of argument, the change to Epidemius' text makes it clear that it is possible to have an ability that starts at the start of the battle, even though the unit in question is not yet in your army because it hasn't yet been summoned.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm inclined to agree, but for the sake of argument, the change to Epidemius' text makes it clear that it is possible to have an ability that starts at the start of the battle, even though the unit in question is not yet in your army because it hasn't yet been summoned.

Epidemius' text is worded completely differently. So it is not a good comparison.

Rules as Written, I don't think you get to use this ability. However, I can see no logical reason why this would be intentionally designed that way. Your opponent would have to be a pretty big tool to now allow you to select a target for him regardless, IMHO.

 DeathReaper wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm inclined to agree, but for the sake of argument, the change to Epidemius' text makes it clear that it is possible to have an ability that starts at the start of the battle, even though the unit in question is not yet in your army because it hasn't yet been summoned.

Epidemius' text is worded completely differently. So it is not a good comparison.

I agree the wording is different (though before they changed the wording in the FAQ, it was more similar to Karanak). But the point is the principle: you can have abilities that start at the beginning of the battle, even if the unit whose datasheet they are recorded on isn't yet in your army.

So it's not true to just say categorically you can't use rules for a model if it isn't in your army. Epidemius' FAQ makes clear that Epidemius' ability is active from the beginning of the battle, even if he isn't yet in your army. It's weird, but many things about the Daemons codex are weird.

Therefore, it's possible within the 40k rules for Karanak's ability to activate at the start of the battle even if he isn't in your army. That doesn't mean it does...but it does mean it's possible within 40k's ruleset.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I agree the wording is different (though before they changed the wording in the FAQ, it was more similar to Karanak). But the point is the principle: you can have abilities that start at the beginning of the battle, even if the unit whose datasheet they are recorded on isn't yet in your army.

The principle does not equate as they are completely different abilities with different wording. What may be true for one is not necessarially true for the other, like the case of Epidemius and Karanak. One happens at a specific time. one does not.

The one that happens at a specific time needs to happen at that time. if the model is not around, then you can not use its rules at the time you need to, and those rules would not affect anything.

So it's not true to just say categorically you can't use rules for a model if it isn't in your army.

It is absolutely true. You can not ever use rules for a dataslate if that dataslate is not in your army. If a model is summoned, then you can start using their rules, but never before then.

Epidemius' FAQ makes clear that Epidemius' ability is active from the beginning of the battle, even if he isn't yet in your army. It's weird, but many things about the Daemons codex are weird.

Because of the way his rule is worded, that is true. It says " The Tally of Pestilence starts the battle at 0." Note starts the battle, and at the start of the battle are two different terms.

Therefore, it's possible within the 40k rules for Karanak's ability to activate at the start of the battle even if he isn't in your army. That doesn't mean it does...but it does mean it's possible within 40k's ruleset.

This is of course false, as you can not use rules for a model if it is not in your army at the time the rule triggers.

Karanak's rules will never activate if he is summoned. This is because if he is summoned, his rules are not a part of the game when his rule is triggered.

What you wrote contradicts itself. If Epidemius' ability is active from the start of the battle even if he isn't in your army, by definition the rule is being used even though he isn't in your army, and therefore it is possible to use rules for a model if it's not in your army at the time the rule triggers.

If you want to hang your hat on "starts the battle" being different from "at the start of the battle" you would have to say that Epidemius' ability is not active from the start of the battle, but only activates when he joins your army.

yukishiro1 wrote:
What you wrote contradicts itself.

It really does not.

If Epidemius' ability is active from the start of the battle even if he isn't in your army,

No it is not. When he gets to be in play, you look at his rules. He has a rule that is active from a certain point until the end of the game. So if you drop him turn 3, his ability is active from the point you drop him on the board (Which would be turn 3), until the end of the game.

His rules only start when he is on the battlefield. You do not go back in time.

by definition the rule is being used even though he isn't in your army, and therefore it is possible to use rules for a model if it's not in your army at the time the rule triggers.

This is false/misleading. Epidemius' ability does not have a specific time that it triggers. It is just in play when Epidemius' is, and if it is anytime after the point mentioned, Epidemius' ability is active.

Karanak has a specific time that his ability triggers, and if he is not in the army or on the board at that time, that specific rule does nothing.

If you want to hang your hat on "starts the battle" being different from "at the start of the battle" you would have to say that Epidemius' ability is not active from the start of the battle, but only activates when he joins your army.

If you can not see the difference between "starts the battle" and "at the start of the battle" then you will never understand how those two abilities work.

Epidemius' Tally of Pestilence ability says "The Tally of Pestilence starts the battle at 0." All this is saying is that the value starts at 0, and the rest of the rules tells you how to add to it, and what effect the tally has, if any.

Karanak's Prey of the Blood God says "When both armies have been set up, choose one enemy CHARACTER on the battlefield" This is a specific point in time when this happens. It can not happen in turn 2 or 3 etc...