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Hey folks,

Just trying to theorize zany ideas for my Genestealer Cult. Like Daemons, the Cult has access to summoning. Here's the stratagem for it:

Telepathic Summons (2CP)– Use at the start of the psychic phase. A Cult Psyker model cannot attempt to manifest any powers. Instead, roll 3D6. You can add a new Cult Infantry or Biker unit to your army if they have the Cult Ambush rule and the power level of the unit is equal to or less than the roll. Immediately set up the unit on the battlefield more than 9″ from enemy models.

So, the question is in the title - can I use this to summon an understrength unit? Such as, for example, a single Brood Brother's Infantry Squad model with a Plasma Gun?

Yes, but why would you?

The unit costs a certain PL, why not just summon a full unit?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes, but why would you?

The unit costs a certain PL, why not just summon a full unit?

In matched play, you don't care about the Power Level - just the points cost. Since any model can perform an action, hold an objective, or exist in a table quarter, you could use this ability plus 5 points and use it to score, say, Engage on All Fronts for max victory points on turn 1.

I don't know yet - but, yeah, there's something there if I could do it.

 Yarium wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes, but why would you?

The unit costs a certain PL, why not just summon a full unit?

In matched play, you don't care about the Power Level - just the points cost. Since any model can perform an action, hold an objective, or exist in a table quarter, you could use this ability plus 5 points and use it to score, say, Engage on All Fronts for max victory points on turn 1.

I don't know yet - but, yeah, there's something there if I could do it.

You would still roll the dice and can only summon a unit if it has the Cult Ambush ability and its Power Rating is equal to or less than the result of the roll. The only change is that in Matched Play you must also have the reinforcement points for that unit.

If it works like the Daemon summoning and I don’t see why not. You can’t give the unit different equipment, only standard equipment.

Any models that cannot be placed is slain for daemons so why should it not be possible to summon an understrength unit. I would allow it.

As the others have said, in Matched play you need points set aside when you build your list.

Something to remember about this is that depending on what format you are playing you are prohibited from including understrength units in your army. When the BRB is released tomorrow you may want to read the "Muster Armies" section for both the Eternal War mission pack and Maelstrom mission pack (assuming you are playing those modes).

JakeSiren wrote:
Something to remember about this is that depending on what format you are playing you are prohibited from including understrength units in your army. When the BRB is released tomorrow you may want to read the "Muster Armies" section for both the Eternal War mission pack and Maelstrom mission pack (assuming you are playing those modes).

Except that summoning is just points set aside; you don't choose what those points are used for until later. There are no understrength units included in the army that is mustered, but one is created using this process during the game. It dodges that step, because the unit doesn't exist until the game is already underway.

You've got the required permission wrong.

The rule specifies that you're summoning a unit, as specified by the codex and the associated other rules require you to set aside the necessary points for that unit.

If the codex specifies (and I'll use Chaos Daemons as an example so I don't have to borrow a book) that a unit is 9 Daemonettes and a unit champion, that's the smallest unit you can summon. There's no permission to create a unit of five daemonettes and a unit champion, any more than there's permission to create a unit with ten unit champions.

In other words, no, you can't summon an "undersized" unit. Such units only exist in the army creation rules, and then half the time you're not allowed to use them.

 solkan wrote:
You've got the required permission wrong.

The rule specifies that you're summoning a unit, as specified by the codex and the associated other rules require you to set aside the necessary points for that unit.

If the codex specifies (and I'll use Chaos Daemons as an example so I don't have to borrow a book) that a unit is 9 Daemonettes and a unit champion, that's the smallest unit you can summon. There's no permission to create a unit of five daemonettes and a unit champion, any more than there's permission to create a unit with ten unit champions.

In other words, no, you can't summon an "undersized" unit. Such units only exist in the army creation rules, and then half the time you're not allowed to use them.

Not sure I agree, but let me make sure I understand;

You're saying that the option to include Understrength Units is something that is only allowed during list construction. Since this is summoned at another time, the option to make it Understrength is no longer present. Is that correct?

If so, not sure I agree, because the definition of an Understrength Unit seems just to be a property of the unit for where that information is found in the rules far prior to the point about mustering units in an army.

 Yarium wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
Something to remember about this is that depending on what format you are playing you are prohibited from including understrength units in your army. When the BRB is released tomorrow you may want to read the "Muster Armies" section for both the Eternal War mission pack and Maelstrom mission pack (assuming you are playing those modes).

Except that summoning is just points set aside; you don't choose what those points are used for until later. There are no understrength units included in the army that is mustered, but one is created using this process during the game. It dodges that step, because the unit doesn't exist until the game is already underway.

Once the unit is summoned it becomes a part of your army. I'll direct you to the side-bar "Reinforcement Points". The 2nd dot point says "When a unit is added to your army during a battle, reduce your Reinforcement points by the points value of the new unit". That makes it clear that a summoned unit becomes a part of your army. We then have the part under Muster Armies for Maelstrom and Eternal War, that says "You cannot include any Understrength units in your army".

So as I said, if you are playing either the Eternal War mission pack or the Maelstrom mission pack you can't summon under strength units.

To be honest, it's maintaining the status quo of 8th edition where you couldn't summon understrength units either.

JakeSiren wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
Something to remember about this is that depending on what format you are playing you are prohibited from including understrength units in your army. When the BRB is released tomorrow you may want to read the "Muster Armies" section for both the Eternal War mission pack and Maelstrom mission pack (assuming you are playing those modes).

Except that summoning is just points set aside; you don't choose what those points are used for until later. There are no understrength units included in the army that is mustered, but one is created using this process during the game. It dodges that step, because the unit doesn't exist until the game is already underway.

Once the unit is summoned it becomes a part of your army. I'll direct you to the side-bar "Reinforcement Points". The 2nd dot point says "When a unit is added to your army during a battle, reduce your Reinforcement points by the points value of the new unit". That makes it clear that a summoned unit becomes a part of your army. We then have the part under Muster Armies for Maelstrom and Eternal War, that says "You cannot include any Understrength units in your army".

So as I said, if you are playing either the Eternal War mission pack or the Maelstrom mission pack you can't summon under strength units.

To be honest, it's maintaining the status quo of 8th edition where you couldn't summon understrength units either.

That would very much make sense. I wouldn't say it's especially clear, but it makes sense in the idea that you have to follow the normal rules for adding a unit to your army, just like you couldn't add a unit of just sergeants. I thought it was just the detachments that have the rule of "no understrength units", but they made double-sure in the Grand Tournament rules that you can't include Understrength units during the Mustering step (a rule that isn't in the normal Matched Play free-download rules).

Summoning understrength units could actually pretty powerful in an MSU meta. If you have a lot of cheap characters you could easily flood the board with ridiculously points efficient, MSU daemons and make your opponent's shot allocation a nightmare.

It certainly doesn't seem like an intended effect and I would never it play that way. But it is fun to think about. Would be nice to get an FAQ ruling on this.

As it looks like you cannot add an understrength unit to your army.

REINFORCEMENT POINTS
.
.
Each time a unit is added to your army during the battle, subtract the points of that unit from your pool of reinforcement points. If there are not enough points in your pool to pay for the unit, you must either decrease the size of that unit (but no smaller than its minimum unit size) or the number of weapon options the unit has until you do have enough points tp pay for it, otherwise it cannot be added to your army.

 p5freak wrote:
As it looks like you cannot add an understrength unit to your army.

REINFORCEMENT POINTS
.
.
Each time a unit is added to your army during the battle, subtract the points of that unit from your pool of reinforcement points. If there are not enough points in your pool to pay for the unit, you must either decrease the size of that unit (but no smaller than its minimum unit size) or the number of weapon options the unit has until you do have enough points tp pay for it, otherwise it cannot be added to your army.

Thank you! That firmly squashed it. Much appreciated!!!

 Yarium wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
As it looks like you cannot add an understrength unit to your army.

REINFORCEMENT POINTS
.
.
Each time a unit is added to your army during the battle, subtract the points of that unit from your pool of reinforcement points. If there are not enough points in your pool to pay for the unit, you must either decrease the size of that unit (but no smaller than its minimum unit size) or the number of weapon options the unit has until you do have enough points tp pay for it, otherwise it cannot be added to your army.

Thank you! That firmly squashed it. Much appreciated!!!

You are welcome. But this doesnt actually say you cannot summon an understrength unit. It says you have to reduce the unit size, or reduce weapons, when you dont have enough points. But what if you have enough points ?

From the quote, it says you reduce it, but no smaller than the minimum squad size, until you do have enough points for it, and if you can’t you cannot add it to your army. So it’s very specific that a summoned unit smaller than the minimum is not legal to be summoned, regardless of how many points you have set aside for reinforcements.