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How exactly does the new blast rule work with weapons that have multiple d6 like the Wyvern Quad Stormshard Mortar (heavy 4d6) and similar weapons?
It seems pretty straightforward with single d6 weapons but there ist no mention of how it works when the weapon has multiple d6.
GW may FAQ it to be otherwise down the line, but for now that's the way it's written. FWIW I think this is the intended way to play it too.
It better be like that, can you imagine the sheer carnage a Deathstrike with the Vortex Missiles Stratagem could do if it launched a nuke into a horde such as Tyranids or Orks with the maximum possible result?
I will not rest until the Tabletop Imperial Guard has been reduced to complete mediocrity. This is completely reflected in the lore.
Anon052 wrote: How exactly does the new blast rule work with weapons that have multiple d6 like the Wyvern Quad Stormshard Mortar (heavy 4d6) and similar weapons?
It seems pretty straightforward with single d6 weapons but there ist no mention of how it works when the weapon has multiple d6.
Doesn't need to, its very explicit as written.
If a Blast weapon targets a unit that has between 6 and 10 models, it always makes a minimum of 3 attacks. So if, when determining how
many attacks are made with that weapon, the dice rolled results in
less than 3 attacks being made, make 3 attacks instead.
The weapon makes a minimum 3 attacks. Dice are not referred to in any way [other than the examples], just the weapon.
Against 11+ models, its 'the weapon makes the maximum number of attacks,' again, it isn't dice based.
Blasts are straight forward:
1-5 models in the target unit, straight dice roll
6-10, dice roll or minimum 3 attacks
11+, no roll, maximum possible attacks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/21 01:54:50
Anon052 wrote: How exactly does the new blast rule work with weapons that have multiple d6 like the Wyvern Quad Stormshard Mortar (heavy 4d6) and similar weapons?
It seems pretty straightforward with single d6 weapons but there ist no mention of how it works when the weapon has multiple d6.
Doesn't need to, its very explicit as written.
If a Blast weapon targets a unit that has between 6 and 10 models, it always makes a minimum of 3 attacks. So if, when determining how
many attacks are made with that weapon, the dice rolled results in
less than 3 attacks being made, make 3 attacks instead.
The weapon makes a minimum 3 attacks. Dice are not referred to in any way [other than the examples], just the weapon.
Against 11+ models, its 'the weapon makes the maximum number of attacks,' again, it isn't dice based.
Blasts are straight forward:
1-5 models in the target unit, straight dice roll
6-10, dice roll or minimum 3 attacks
11+, no roll, maximum possible attacks.
This feels really janky rules-wise. Take the Cluster missile system for a Stormsurge, which is a 4D6 weapon. against units of 10 models and below, its still possible to only make 4 attacks by rolling quadruple 1 but as soon as you add an additional model to that unit, suddenly you're making 24 attacks straight out of the gates...
Anon052 wrote: How exactly does the new blast rule work with weapons that have multiple d6 like the Wyvern Quad Stormshard Mortar (heavy 4d6) and similar weapons?
It seems pretty straightforward with single d6 weapons but there ist no mention of how it works when the weapon has multiple d6.
Doesn't need to, its very explicit as written.
If a Blast weapon targets a unit that has between 6 and 10 models, it always makes a minimum of 3 attacks. So if, when determining how
many attacks are made with that weapon, the dice rolled results in
less than 3 attacks being made, make 3 attacks instead.
The weapon makes a minimum 3 attacks. Dice are not referred to in any way [other than the examples], just the weapon.
Against 11+ models, its 'the weapon makes the maximum number of attacks,' again, it isn't dice based.
Blasts are straight forward:
1-5 models in the target unit, straight dice roll
6-10, dice roll or minimum 3 attacks
11+, no roll, maximum possible attacks.
Pretty much this. The Blast rule is perfectly clear, it's just people misreading it because they think it "should" work some other way.
Anon052 wrote: How exactly does the new blast rule work with weapons that have multiple d6 like the Wyvern Quad Stormshard Mortar (heavy 4d6) and similar weapons?
It seems pretty straightforward with single d6 weapons but there ist no mention of how it works when the weapon has multiple d6.
Doesn't need to, its very explicit as written.
If a Blast weapon targets a unit that has between 6 and 10 models, it always makes a minimum of 3 attacks. So if, when determining how
many attacks are made with that weapon, the dice rolled results in
less than 3 attacks being made, make 3 attacks instead.
The weapon makes a minimum 3 attacks. Dice are not referred to in any way [other than the examples], just the weapon.
Against 11+ models, its 'the weapon makes the maximum number of attacks,' again, it isn't dice based.
Blasts are straight forward:
1-5 models in the target unit, straight dice roll
6-10, dice roll or minimum 3 attacks
11+, no roll, maximum possible attacks.
This feels really janky rules-wise. Take the Cluster missile system for a Stormsurge, which is a 4D6 weapon. against units of 10 models and below, its still possible to only make 4 attacks by rolling quadruple 1 but as soon as you add an additional model to that unit, suddenly you're making 24 attacks straight out of the gates...
You'll always get that effect when there's a hard cut-off value and such a large selection of weapons in the game. There will always be these edge cases.
The rule itself is definitely not ambiguous so the only reasonable excuse I can think of for some playtesters thinking it worked differently is they weren't working with the final text of the rule. The alternative is that playtesters don't read the rules they're testing...
The rule is very clearly written. The biggest issue is that GW definitely stated it worked differently during their Warhammer Daily webcast right before revealing the actual rule that said otherwise. Unless we get a Day One FAQ/Errata, the rule is clear.
This feels really janky rules-wise. Take the Cluster missile system for a Stormsurge, which is a 4D6 weapon. against units of 10 models and below, its still possible to only make 4 attacks by rolling quadruple 1 but as soon as you add an additional model to that unit, suddenly you're making 24 attacks straight out of the gates...
Eh. To me janky implies weird and overly complicated. This is simple and clearly written. I get not liking it, but that's a completely separate issue.
The terrain rules, now those are janky, simply because each one seems to operate in its own way and in its own bubble, and don't interface consistently with the LOS rules, which are still inexplicably 'bend over and look at what the model can see.'
Some terrain rules care about bases, others care about visible models, obscuring cares about not being able to draw any hypothetical lines, dense requires only a single line and hills just ain't terrain.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/21 22:24:29
This feels really janky rules-wise. Take the Cluster missile system for a Stormsurge, which is a 4D6 weapon. against units of 10 models and below, its still possible to only make 4 attacks by rolling quadruple 1 but as soon as you add an additional model to that unit, suddenly you're making 24 attacks straight out of the gates...
Eh. To me janky implies weird and overly complicated. This is simple and clearly written. I get not liking it, but that's a completely separate issue.
The terrain rules, now those are janky, simply because each one seems to operate in its own way and in its own bubble, and don't interface consistently with the LOS rules, which are still inexplicably 'bend over and look at what the model can see.'
Some terrain rules care about bases, others care about visible models, obscuring cares about not being able to draw any hypothetical lines, dense requires only a single line and hills just ain't terrain.
Ok, maybe janky wasn't the best word to use, but the sudden upscale in hits just doesn't sit right with me. a slower upscale would have been better IMHO. Something like for every 6 models in the unit the minimum number of hits that can be rolled per dice increases by 1.
This feels really janky rules-wise. Take the Cluster missile system for a Stormsurge, which is a 4D6 weapon. against units of 10 models and below, its still possible to only make 4 attacks by rolling quadruple 1 but as soon as you add an additional model to that unit, suddenly you're making 24 attacks straight out of the gates...
Eh. To me janky implies weird and overly complicated. This is simple and clearly written. I get not liking it, but that's a completely separate issue.
The terrain rules, now those are janky, simply because each one seems to operate in its own way and in its own bubble, and don't interface consistently with the LOS rules, which are still inexplicably 'bend over and look at what the model can see.'
Some terrain rules care about bases, others care about visible models, obscuring cares about not being able to draw any hypothetical lines, dense requires only a single line and hills just ain't terrain.
I dont know why everyone is surprised hills arnt terrain.. exact same rule existed in 8th edition. In fact 75% of the terrain rules are exactly the same as 8th, just written in an easier way to understand.
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
This feels really janky rules-wise. Take the Cluster missile system for a Stormsurge, which is a 4D6 weapon. against units of 10 models and below, its still possible to only make 4 attacks by rolling quadruple 1 but as soon as you add an additional model to that unit, suddenly you're making 24 attacks straight out of the gates...
Eh. To me janky implies weird and overly complicated. This is simple and clearly written. I get not liking it, but that's a completely separate issue.
The terrain rules, now those are janky, simply because each one seems to operate in its own way and in its own bubble, and don't interface consistently with the LOS rules, which are still inexplicably 'bend over and look at what the model can see.'
Some terrain rules care about bases, others care about visible models, obscuring cares about not being able to draw any hypothetical lines, dense requires only a single line and hills just ain't terrain.
I dont know why everyone is surprised hills arnt terrain.. exact same rule existed in 8th edition. In fact 75% of the terrain rules are exactly the same as 8th, just written in an easier way to understand.
I guess I just didn't remember 'lol, doesn't count' as a rule, and never bothered to find it in that badly organized mess of a rulebook again.
But no. The terrain rules aren't 'exactly the same' OR easier to understand.
8th edition obstacles were obstacles to things (by category, and slowed them down, halving advances or charges.
9th edition obstacles affect movement in no way at all (by default), but offer a wide variety of protections to infantry, beasts or swarms within 3", depending what other keywords are hung off them, and how you specifically draw lines from a shooter to the protected unit.
8th edition woods offer cover if 50% of the model is really actually obscured from shooter, if and only if the _unit_ is entirely in the wood, and also models are slowed when charging through (and only when charging)
9th edition woods are... lets see, Area Terrain with the traits (usually) of Dense Cover, Breachable, Defensible and Difficult Ground. Which means they can inflict -1 to hit on a shooter if its not in the woods and the target is either in the woods or a line can possibly be drawn to at least one model in the unit; infantry, beasts and swarms can move through it without penalty; and other model types (if they aren't flyers) lose 2" of movement from any type of move, AND it can grant a bonus to overwatch or fighting if the unit is within 3" of the woods AND a line _can_ be drawn between the two closest models in the defending and charging units before the chargers charge. Which can potentially affect things even if no model actually passes through the woods.
I could go on, but, yeesh. What part of these are the same or easier to understand?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/23 00:07:21
With regard to the blast rules, I expect that when they roll 9th out, they'll have a list of weapons like the thunderfire cannon, quad-mortar etc which all fire multiple D6 shots, and they will change them to firing a single D6, then state that the vehicle has 4 of them, and they must all fire at the same target. which is a very arse about face way to go, which is probably why I suspect it!
12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!
some bloke wrote: With regard to the blast rules, I expect that when they roll 9th out, they'll have a list of weapons like the thunderfire cannon, quad-mortar etc which all fire multiple D6 shots, and they will change them to firing a single D6, then state that the vehicle has 4 of them, and they must all fire at the same target. which is a very arse about face way to go, which is probably why I suspect it!
That's already not happened. Rules are out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/23 05:36:51
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
I'll just hope for them to errata blast to be a minimum of 3 as the result of each dice (2 for D3) for 6+ model targets, so you get a nice progression.
But thats just wishful thinking, the rule is very clear in how it works right now,to the point that I wouldn't feel comfortable saying that this was not intentional.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/23 08:14:38
got to admit, the fact that it's 5 and 11 models not 10 and 15 is a bit crap.
Not many units run over 15 without going to 30, but a lot of units run at 11-12 models per unit (trukk boys, nobs with runts, any 10 man squad with an extra thing like a turret or drone...)
seems weird tha they think 6 models is enough to justify starting to call it a horde.
what size squads do Primaris come in again?
12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!
some bloke wrote: got to admit, the fact that it's 5 and 11 models not 10 and 15 is a bit crap.
Not many units run over 15 without going to 30, but a lot of units run at 11-12 models per unit (trukk boys, nobs with runts, any 10 man squad with an extra thing like a turret or drone...)
seems weird tha they think 6 models is enough to justify starting to call it a horde.
what size squads do Primaris come in again?
3 and 6. Which is exactly why they picked 6 as the cut-off. Everything has to revolve around Primaris.
But then wouldn't they have made the cutoff 7 so that it never impacts those specialist Primaris?
Sorry, not sorry, that doesn't fit your conspiracy theory.
The reason is rather obvious. Most units have a minimum of either 5 or 10 models. They didn't want to majorly impact those minimum unit sizes, so the rules come into effect at 6 and 11 models.
some bloke wrote: got to admit, the fact that it's 5 and 11 models not 10 and 15 is a bit crap.
Not many units run over 15 without going to 30, but a lot of units run at 11-12 models per unit (trukk boys, nobs with runts, any 10 man squad with an extra thing like a turret or drone...)
seems weird tha they think 6 models is enough to justify starting to call it a horde.
what size squads do Primaris come in again?
3 and 6. Which is exactly why they picked 6 as the cut-off. Everything has to revolve around Primaris.
That's completely unsubstantiated conjecture. It's much more likely they picked that because 5 or 10 are the minimum unit sizes of most units in the game and "more than 10" is a decent number to count as a horde.
tneva82 wrote: Yeah got to force everybody to play 5 strong squads eh? Can't give anything over 5 models any break eh?
Not like that's going to change that when most weapons are D6 or D3 anyway. My suggestion would tune down D3 weapons against 6-10 model squads actually.
On the 6+ Models thing: It's because almost all veteran or elite squads are min sized below 6. This notion of GW tuning the entire ruleset to sell Primaris is on the level of flat earth conspiracies, to be honest. It's not like Primaris didn't sell at the start of 8th.
5000pts W4/ D0/ L5
5000pts W10/ D2/ L7
