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My buddies and I are trying our hands at creating a brand new set of rules to play 40K by. One of the concepts that we are working on here is to simplify the unit profiles and to stop the need to double, triple or quadruple up on some weapon options. To do this we're testing a basic profile in which the unit has a set of basic stats (the info below the name of the squad) and then are enhanced in a specific way by the equipment they carry. You never get a benefit in our system for doubling up on weapons, so it makes the game more friendly towards players who like to model to different weapons instead of just what is the most hot option X4. Below is one example we've worked on from our Chaos Codex, but we're also wanting to work on some of the other new units and the basic rules of the game.

Havok Squad (4 Havok Gunners, 1 Havok Champion)
5 Wounds
5 Attacks (CC)
5 Attacks (Ranged)
AP -2 (Base)
LD 7
Gets wounded on a 4+
Wounds on a 4+
Hits on a 3+
Is Hit on a 4+

The Aspiring Havok may take:
-Power Sword
-Power Maul
-Chainsword
-Meltagun/Plasma Gun/Boltgun

Up to 4 Havok Gunners may take 1 of the following, doubles do not count:
-Lascannon
-Heavy Bolter
-Autocannon
-Missile Launcher
-Chaincannon
-Missile Launcher

-if this squad contains a Lascannon: +1 to wound, max damage verse units with the VEHICLE keyword.
-if this squad contains a Heavy Bolter: Suppression: Any unit targeted by this unit that suffers a casualty cannot move next turn.
-if this squad contains an Autocannon: +1 to wound against units with the INFANTRY and/or Character keywords.
-if this squad contains a Missile Launcher: Blast keyword.
-if this squad contains a Chaincannon: -1 to AP against units with the INFANTRY and/or Character keywords.
-If this squad contains a Chainsword: Double the CC attacks of the unit.
-if this squad contains a Power Maul: -1 AP for CC attacks. 6+ generates a mortal wound.
-if this squad contains a Power Sword: -2 AP for CC attacks. 6+ to hit generates an additional hit.
-If this squad contains a plasmagun/meltagun/boltgun: Make 1 additional ranged attack each turn.

Special Rules:

Bolt Pistols: This unit may shoot with a bolt pistol in CC against any unit within 3".
Warp-Infused Transhuman Physiology: This unit may have a 5+ FNP for 1CP paid before the game begins. Make sure to mark it on your unit sheet for remembrance. (A note on this, we gave SM the rule "Transhuman Physiology" which is the same, but a 6+)
Powered Armor: Attacks against this unit with AP -1, become AP 0 instead.
Destroyer Protocols: Spend 2 CP. This unit may shoot a second time this shooting phase at any viable target. Usable only once per battle-round and never during overwatch.
Relentless: Never suffer the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons.
Death to the False Emperor

Keywords: Infantry, Character (Aspiring Havok), <Chapter>, Chaos, Chaos Space Marines, Heavy Weapons Squad

It'll take forever for us to get all the profiles changed and of course we will spend some time testing, but our hope is that with these simplified profiles the game will be much faster and more enjoyable. Any thoughts on this idea? We're hoping to get enough units done to try these rules out next week.

I can't help but feel the dictation of ranged attacks based on the unit profile rather than the weapon profile really hampers this a lot. If I take a Chaincannon, I'm taking it because I want a lot of shots, if i'm taking a lascannon, I'm going big game hunting. Autocannons are for hunting termies and primaris and the rules here really don't reflect that at all...

You take 4 Lascannons so that you can reliably take down the big targets that have a lot o wounds quicker than using a gun with more shots than damage. Unless you plan to reduce vehicle wounds down to compensate (Which is just stepping back in the system and making vehicles vulnerable to light arms again) the system is not reflective of the aims you're going for. 4 of a single gun makes sense as a dedicated killer and just performs better as it dictates the units role.

It feels like you have a lot of core rule changes in mind that you aren't showing us here. That makes it tough to comment on what you've presented as we don't have a clear picture of the whole. Do you have some core rule changes written up somewhere, or did you start with the unit profile changes?

 Togusa wrote:

Gets wounded on a 4+
Wounds on a 4+
Hits on a 3+
Is Hit on a 4+

For instance, this part confuses me. You have a "Gets wounded" stat that suggests that all attacks made against them wound on a 4+, but then you also have a "wounds on a 4+" stat that sounds like it would be used to wound something else. If all units in the game have those two stats, then which takes priority? If my unit says I wound on a 3+, but your unit says you get wounded on a 4+, how does that work? Same with to-hit modifiers. And the names of those stats also suggest that the lethality (strength) of an individual weapon doesn't matter in your system? Is a heavy bolter as likely to wound a target as a bolter?

-if this squad contains a Lascannon: +1 to wound, max damage verse units with the VEHICLE keyword.
-if this squad contains a Heavy Bolter: Suppression: Any unit targeted by this unit that suffers a casualty cannot move next turn.
-if this squad contains an Autocannon: +1 to wound against units with the INFANTRY and/or Character keywords.
-if this squad contains a Missile Launcher: Blast keyword.
-if this squad contains a Chaincannon: -1 to AP against units with the INFANTRY and/or Character keywords.
-If this squad contains a Chainsword: Double the CC attacks of the unit.
-if this squad contains a Power Maul: -1 AP for CC attacks. 6+ generates a mortal wound.
-if this squad contains a Power Sword: -2 AP for CC attacks. 6+ to hit generates an additional hit.
-If this squad contains a plasmagun/meltagun/boltgun: Make 1 additional ranged attack each turn.

Again, lots we don't know here. What does "blast" even mean if you're giving units a set number of ranged attacks? Does having a heavy bolter in the unit mean that the entire unit can suddenly suppress 5 different units even though there's only a single heavy bolter? Lots of questions here.

Special Rules:

Bolt Pistols: This unit may shoot with a bolt pistol in CC against any unit within 3".
Warp-Infused Transhuman Physiology: This unit may have a 5+ FNP for 1CP paid before the game begins. Make sure to mark it on your unit sheet for remembrance. (A note on this, we gave SM the rule "Transhuman Physiology" which is the same, but a 6+)
Powered Armor: Attacks against this unit with AP -1, become AP 0 instead.
Destroyer Protocols: Spend 2 CP. This unit may shoot a second time this shooting phase at any viable target. Usable only once per battle-round and never during overwatch.
Relentless: Never suffer the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons.
Death to the False Emperor

You're looking at a ton of special rules on a single unit. Between 5 different special rules for 5 different guns and everything in the "special rules" section, you potentially have 11 special rules on a single unit. Also, what does "may shoot with a bolt pistol," mean given that weapons seem to modify a generic "attack"? Like, does having both a lascannon and a bolt pistol in the unit mean that your pistols have +1 to wound versus vehicles? Does a bolt pistol use the "wounds on" stat?

It'll take forever for us to get all the profiles changed and of course we will spend some time testing, but our hope is that with these simplified profiles the game will be much faster and more enjoyable. Any thoughts on this idea? We're hoping to get enough units done to try these rules out next week.

It's great to see that you're having fun coming up with rules that your group enjoys. But respectfully, I"m not sure I'd call this profile "simplified" given the above statement about having 10+ special rules active on a single unit at a time. I Feel like remembering the 5 different special gun rules a given unit has in play at a time might end up slowing you down and mitigating the amount of time you'd be saving.

Also, have you thought about all the units in the game that don't have a bunch of upgrade options? In the example you've given, it's clearly advantageous to have a lot of different wargear options because the bonuses from each option seem to stack. So now compare your havoc rules to their craftworlder counterpart: dark reapers. Dark reapers only have access to a single gun. Their squad leader can swap his gun out for one of several others, but he's the only guy in the unit to have anything other than a reaper launcher. So given that dark reapers will only ever have 2 different guns in their unit, how do you make them stack up properly against your havocs? Keep in mind that having entire squads equipped with the same wargear is a pretty major part of how craftworlders are designed

How about necrons, most of their units have to be equipped with the same gun across the entire unit. Many units that do have wargear options literally only have two options. Lychguard can have sword + shield or just a scythe. Warriors can have flayers or reapers. Immortals can have gauss or tesla.

TLDR; I'm having trouble seeing what you're going for, and what I do see makes me worried that you're going to run into some major unit design challenges.

Thanks! I think the issue with to hit to wound is left over from version 1, I'll remove that for now until I can talk to the fellow that wrote it.

In terms of the special rules, we're trying to treat it like Magic in using evergreen keywords. The idea is that +1 to wound, or -1 ap will have a keyword that is the same across all armies.

Yes, for units with fewer options, the buffs will be offset by the unit having more inbuilt special rules.

in the TLDR sense, we're tired of being forced to have to buy 13 kits just to get a full squad. The question is, if Heavy Bolters suck on Havoks, for example, then why does the option even exist in the first place, when everyone is just going to want 4 Lascannon to min/max the squad. Our hope is to find a ruleset which makes these min/max choices irrelevant. You don't need 4 lascannon when one will do. That sort of thing.

I doubt we will be ready before the end of the year to put out a PDF, but maybe. Hell, this might die right here and now too.

But it has been fun to look at different ways.

I really wish GW would do a full restart of the rules, completely redisnged from the ground up.

I think if you're looking to make the weapon choices less impactful in some way I'd start by reducing the number of options and applying your keyword system to those options. In a simplified, streamlined system like you're proposing I'm not sure you really need to differentiate between a Heavy Bolter and a Chaincannon, for example, or a Krak missile and a Lascannon. I'd just allow players to buy a more generic upgrade for anti-personnel or anti-tank purposes and give them free rein to model any of the appropriate weapon options for that choice.

It seems that under your system all you'd encourage is for people to load up on as many different weapons as possible, rather than focussing on a specific weapon as they do now. While that's better for modelling given GW's stupid approach to some of their recent kits I think it would turn out worse for balance.

Well put, Slipspace. I think I agree with all of that.

As an alternative, have you considered playing Apocolypse? The game focuses on squads rather than on individual models (mostly), and the exact weapons individuals are equipped with don't matter. So it seems to do a lot of what you're trying to accomplish, and you can save yourselves a ton of effort.

Yeah. The datasheets for apoc are available for free. give them a look. It does most of what you are looking for already.