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I would like to get some help on which units people have a feeling were viable in 8th using the latest FAQs and CA19 pts and which units got improved or worsened by core rules and FAQ changes in 9th. All this with the goal of creating Warhammer Forty Thousand Points, a revamped pts system for 9th with 40k pts as the replacement for the current standard 2k game. This should feature a general decrease in number of models on the table, so the cost of the average unit will be multiplied by 24, but by as little as 20 and as much as 28. The goal of this thread will be to get a rough idea of which units were good in 8th by rating units with an A for amazing, B for good, C for bad or D for terrible and + for improved and - for worsened. In addition to changing overall unit costs, I think it would be neat if instead of giving up on balance between different weapon choices we could improve the balance between these choices by pointing out disparities between the viability of different wargear options.

Part of this discussion has to be what exactly 9th favours and worsens. I would say melee gets worse because of the get out of tri-point Stratagem, melee hordes are additionally hurt by changes to which models in melee can attack. Shooty units with FLY get worse because they cannot shoot after falling back, shooty vehicles and monsters get better because they can shoot in melee. Shooty units, especially those that hit automatically or have bonuses when firing Overwatch are hurt by the removal of Overwatch. Durable and mobile units get better because of mission changes. Option for any unit to go into deep strike makes short-ranged units with no good option for getting into range better. Units with blasts will occasionally be better, less noticeable on front-line vehicles which are more likely to get locked in melee. Characters get less protection, particularly back-line characters with no back-line units to hide behind get a lot worse. Grey Knights and Thousand Sons get worse because they cannot spam smite and psykers in general are weaker because they cannot fall back and smite. Cheap troops choices get worse because they no longer provide CP through Battalions, only unlock more freedom through going from a Patrol to a Battalion or a Battalion to a Brigade. Units that heal get better because of the lower amount of models on the board, in turn, increasing the likelihood that they will get to heal something that survives your opponent's turn. Limiting the CP re-roll is bad for any faction with high-stakes single rolls, like the number of shots for Ork Lootas, Drukhari Agents of Vect Stratagem or Necron Powers of the C'tan. The introduction of strategic reserves helps glass cannons and short-ranged slow units.

ADEPTA SORORITAS
HQ
• Canoness A-
• Celestine A-
• Junith Eruita A-
• Missionary A-
• Triumph of Saint Katherine A-
• Ephrael Stern and Kyganil B-
• Arch-Confessor Kyrinov B-
• Canoness (Legendary) A-
• Uriah Jacobus B-
Troops
• Battle Sister Squad B+
• Battle Sister Squad (Legendary) B+
Dedicated Transport
• Immolator B+
• Sororitas Rhino C+
• Sororitas Repressor B+
Elites
• Arco-flagellants A-
• Celestian Squad B+
• Crusaders C+
• Death Cult Assassins B-
• Dialogus A-
• Geminae Superia A-
• Hospitaller B-
• Imagifier A-
• Preacher C-
• Repentia Superior B-
• Sister Repentia A-
• Zephyrim Squad C+
• Celestian Squad (Legendary) A-
• Preacher (Legendary) C-
• Ministorum Priest A-
Fast Attack
• Dominion Squad B+
• Seraphim Squad A+
• Dominion Squad (Legendary) B+
Heavy Support
• Exorcist A+
• Mortifiers C+
• Penitent Engines C+
• Retributor Squad A+
• Retributor Squad (Legendary) A+
Fortifications
• Battle Sanctum C-

ADEPTUS CUSTODES
HQ
• Captain-General Trajann Valoris B-
• Shield-Captain B-
• Shield-Captain in Allarus Terminator Armour B-
• Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike A-
• Valerian and Aleya B-
Troops
• Custodian Guard B+
• Custodian Guard with Adrasite and Pyrithite Spears B+
• Sagittarum Custodians B+
Dedicated Transport
• Coronus Grav-carrier C+
Elites
• Allarus Custodians B+
• Custodian Wardens B+
• Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought B+
• Vexilus Praetor B+
• Vexilus Praetor in Allarus Terminator Armour B+
• Aquilon Custodians B+
• Contemptor-Achillus Dreadnought B+
• Contemptor-Galatus Dreadnought B+
• Contemptor-Exemplar Dreadnought B+
Fast Attack
• Vertus Praetors A-
• Agamatus Custodians B+
• Pallas Grav-attack B-
• Venatari Custodians B+
Flyers
• Ares Gunship B-
• Orion Assault Dropship B-
Heavy Support
• Venerable Land Raider C+
• Caladius Grav-tank B-
• Telemon Heavy Dreadnought B+

ADEPTUS MECHANICUS
HQ
• Belisarius Cawl A-
• Tech-Priest Dominus A-
• Tech-Priest Enginseer A-
• Tech-Priest Manipulus A-
• Daedalosus A-
Troops
• Kataphron Breachers B+
• Kataphron Destroyers B+
• Skitarii Rangers B+
• Skitarii Vanguard B+
Dedicated Transport
• Skorpius Dunerider C+
• Terrax-pattern Termite Assault Drill C+
Elites
• Corpuscarii Electro-Priests B+
• Cybernetica Datasmith C-
• Fulgurite Electro-Priests B+
• Servitors C+
• Sicarian Infiltrators C+
• Sicarian Ruststalkers C+
• X-101 B-
• Secutarii Hoplites B+
• Secutarii Peltasts B+
Fast Attack
• Ironstrider Ballistarii B+
• Sydonian Dragoons B+
• Pteraxii Skystalkers B+
• Pteraxii Sterylizors B+
• Serberys Raiders B+
• Serberys Sulphurhounds B+
Flyers
• Archaeopter Fusilave B-
• Archaeopter Stratoraptor B-
• Archaeopter Transvector B-
Heavy Support
• Kastelan Robots B+
• Onager Dunecrawler B+
• Skorpius Disintegrator A+

ASTRA MILITARUM
HQ
• Colonel ‘Iron Hand’ Straken B-
• Commissar Yarrick B-
• Company Commander A-
• Knight Commander Pask B+
• Lord Castellan Creed B-
• Lord Commissar D-
• Primaris Psyker B-
• Tank Commander A+
• Tempestor Prime B-
• Sly Marbo B-
• Aradia Madellan B-
• Company Commander (Legendary) B-
• Lord Commissar (Legendary) B-
• Tempestor Prime (Legendary) B-
Troops
• Conscripts C+
• Infantry Squad A+
• Militarum Tempestus Scions B+
• Infantry Squad (Legendary) A+
• Militarum Tempestus Scions (Legendary) B+
Dedicated Transport
• Chimera C+
• Taurox C+
• Taurox Prime C+
• Centaur Light Carrier C+
• Gryphonne Pattern Chimera C+
• Trojan Support Vehicle C+
Elites
• Astropath A-
• Bullgryns A+
• Colour Sergeant Kell C-
• Command Squad C+
• Commissar C+
• Crusaders C+
• Master of Ordnance B-
• Militarum Tempestus Command Squad B+
• Ministorum Priest B+
• Nork Deddog C-
• Officer of the Fleet C-
• Ogryn Bodyguard C+
• Ogryns D+
• Platoon Commander C-
• Ratlings C-
• Sergeant Harker C-
• Servitors C-
• Special Weapons Squad B+
• Tech-Priest Enginseer C+
• Veterans C+
• Wyrdvane Psykers C-
• Commissar Severina Raine C-
• Gotfret de Montbard C-
• Rein and Raus C-
• Atlas Recovery Tank C+
• Hades Breaching Drill Squadron C+
• Salamander Command Vehicle C+
• Commissar (Legendary) C-
• Platoon Commander (Legendary) C+
• Special Weapons Squad (Legendary) C+
• Veterans (Legendary) C+
Fast Attack
• Armoured Sentinels B+
• Hellhounds B+
• Scout Sentinels B+
• Artemia Pattern Hellhound B+
• Mukaali Riders C+
• Salamander Scout Tank B+
• Tauros Assault Vehicle C+
• Tauros Venator C+
• Rough Riders B+
Flyers
• Valkyries B+
• Aquila Lander C-
• Arvus Lighter C-
• Avenger Strike Fighter B-
• Lightning Strike Fighter B-
• Thunderbolt Heavy Fighter B-
• Vendetta Gunship B+
• Vulture Gunship B+
Heavy Support
• Leman Russ Demolishers B+
• Basilisks A+
• Deathstrike D+
• Heavy Weapons Squad C+
• Hydras B+
• Leman Russ Battle Tanks C+
• Manticore B+
• Wyverns B+
• Armageddon Pattern Basilisk B+
• Armageddon Pattern Medusa B+
• Carnodon C+
• Colossus Bombard C+
• Cyclops Demolition Vehicle D+
• Earthshaker Battery B+
• Earthshaker Carriage Battery B+
• Griffon Mortar Carrier B+
• Heavy Mortar Battery B+
• Heavy Quad Launcher Battery B+
• Hydra Battery B+
• Leman Russ Annihilator B+
• Leman Russ Conqueror A+
• Leman Russ Stygies Vanquisher C+
• Malcador Annihilator B+
• Malcador Defender B+
• Malcador Heavy Tank B+
• Malcador Infernus B+
• Manticore Battery B+
• Medusa Carriage Battery B+
• Rapier Laser Destroyer B+
• Ryza Pattern Leman Russ Vanquisher B+
• Sabre Weapons Battery B+
• Sentinel Powerlifters B+
• Stygies Destroyer Tank Hunter B+
• Stygies Thunderer Siege Tank B+
• Tarantula Battery B+
Lords of War
• Baneblade C+
• Banehammer C+
• Banesword C+
• Doomhammer C+
• Hellhammer C+
• Shadowsword B+
• Stormlord C+
• Stormsword C+
• Arkurian Pattern Stormblade C+
• Arkurian Pattern Stormhammer C+
• Arkurian Pattern Stormsword C+
• Crassus Armoured Assault Vehicle C+
• Dominus Armoured Siege Bombard C+
• Gorgon Heavy Transporter C+
• Macharius Heavy Tank C+
• Macharius Omega C+
• Macharius Vanquisher C+
• Macharius Vulcan C+
• Marauder Bomber C+
• Marauder Destroyer C+
• Minotaur Artillery Tank C+
• Praetor Armoured Assault Launcher C+
• Valdor Tank Hunter C+

BLOOD ANGELS
HQ
• Brother Corbulo B-
• Captain A-
• Captain in Cataphractii Armour B-
• Captain in Gravis Armour B-
• Captain in Terminator Armour B-
• Captain Tycho B-
• Commander Dante B-
• Librarian B-
• Librarian Dreadnought A-
• Librarian in Terminator Armour B-
• Lieutenants A-
• Primaris Captain B-
• Primaris Librarian B-
• Primaris Lieutenants B-
• Techmarine B-
• The Sanguinor B-
• Tycho the Lost B-
• Astorath B-
• Captain in Phobos Armour B-
• Chaplain A-
• Chaplain in Terminator Armour B-
• Chief Librarian Mephiston B-
• Gabriel Seth B-
• Lemartes B-
• Librarian in Phobos Armour B-
• Lieutenants in Phobos Armour B-
• Primaris Chaplain B-
• Sanguinary Priest B-
• Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought B-
• Damocles Command Rhino C+
• Captain on Bike B-
• Chaplain (Legendary) A-
• Chaplain on Bike B-
• Chief Librarian Mephiston (Legendary) B-
• Land Raider Excelsior D+
• Librarian (Legendary) B-
• Librarian in Terminator Armour (Legendary) B-
• Librarian on Bike B-
• Rhino Primaris D+
• Sanguinary Priest (Legendary) B-
• Sanguinary Priest on Bike B-
• Techmarine (Legendary) B-
• Techmarine on Bike B-
Troops
• Scout Squad A+
• Tactical Squad C+
• Incursor Squad B+
• Infiltrator Squad B+
• Intercessor Squad A+
Dedicated Transport
• Drop Pod B-
• Land Speeder Storm C+
• Razorback C-
• Repulsor B-
• Rhino C+
• Impulsor A-
• Infernum Pattern Razorback C+
• Lucius Pattern Dreadnought Drop Pod C-
• Terrax-pattern Termite Assault Drill C+
Elites
• Aggressor Squad B+
• Cataphractii Terminator Squad C+
• Company Ancient B+
• Company Champion B+
• Company Veterans B+
• Contemptor Dreadnought B+
• Death Company B+
• Death Company Dreadnought B+
• Dreadnought B+
• Furioso Dreadnought B+
• Primaris Ancient B+
• Primaris Apothecary B+
• Redemptor Dreadnought B+
• Reiver Squad C+
• Sanguinary Ancient B+
• Sanguinary Guard A+
• Sanguinary Novitiate B+
• Servitors B+
• Sternguard Veteran Squad C+
• Tartaros Terminator Squad C+
• Terminator Ancient C+
• Terminator Assault Squad C+
• Terminator Squad C+
• Vanguard Veteran Squad B+
• Death Company Intercessors B+
• Invictor Tactical Warsuit A+
• Deimos Pattern Relic Predator B+
• Relic Contemptor Dreadnought B+
• Relic Deredeo Dreadnought C-
• Relic Javelin Attack Speeder C-
• Relic Sicaran Battle Tank C+
• Relic Sicaran Punisher Assault Tank C+
• Relic Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer C+
• Relic Whirlwind Scorpius C+
• Company Ancient (Legendary) B-
• Company Champion (Legendary) C-
• Company Veterans (Legendary) B+
• Dreadnought (Legendary) C+
• Imperial Space Marine C-
• Sanguinary Novitiate (Legendary) B-
Fast Attack
• Assault Squad D+
• Attack Bike Squad C+
• Bike Squad C+
• Inceptor Squad C+
• Land Speeders C-
• Scout Bike Squad B+
• Suppressor Squad C+
• Deathstorm Drop Pod C+
• Land Speeder Tempest C-
• Tarantula Air Defence Battery C+
• Tarantula Sentry Gun C+
Flyers
• Stormhawk Interceptor C-
• Stormraven Gunship C-
• Stormtalon Gunship C-
• Caestus Assault Ram C-
• Fire Raptor Assault Gunship C-
• Storm Eagle Assault Gunship C-
• Xiphon Interceptor C-
Heavy Support
• Baal Predator C+
• Devastator Squad C+
• Hellblaster Squad C+
• Hunter C+
• Land Raider C+
• Land Raider Crusader C+
• Land Raider Redeemer C+
• Predator C+
• Stalker C+
• Vindicator C+
• Whirlwind C+
• Eliminator Squad C+
• Repulsor Executioner C+
• Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought C+
• Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer C+
• Land Raider Achilles C+
• Land Raider Helios C+
• Land Raider Prometheus C+
• Mortis Dreadnought C+
• Rapier Carrier C+
• Relic Land Raider Proteus C+
• Relic Leviathan Dreadnought C+
• Siege Dreadnought C+
• Whirlwind Hyperios C+
Lords of War
• Relic Cerberus Heavy Tank Destroyer C+
• Relic Falchion Super-heavy Tank Destroyer C+
• Relic Fellblade Super-heavy Tank C+
• Relic Mastodon Super-heavy Siege Transport C+
• Relic Spartan Assault Tank C+
• Relic Typhon Heavy Siege Tank C+
• Sokar Pattern Stormbird C+
• Thunderhawk Assault Gunship D-
• Thunderhawk Transporter D-

DARK ANGELS
HQ
• Azrael B-
• Belial B-
• Ezekiel B-
• Librarian B-
• Librarian in Terminator Armour B-
• Lieutenants B-
• Master A-
• Master in Cataphractii Armour B-
• Master in Gravis Armour B-
• Master in Terminator Armour B-
• Primaris Librarian B-
• Primaris Lieutenants B-
• Ravenwing Talonmaster A-
• Sammael in Sableclaw A-
• Sammael on Corvex A-
• Techmarine B-
• Asmodai B-
• Chaplain A-
• Interrogator-Chaplain B-
• Interrogator-Chaplain in Terminator Armour B-
• Librarian in Phobos Armour B-
• Lieutenants in Phobos Armour B-
• Master in Phobos Armour A-
• Master Lazarus B-
• Primaris Chaplain B-
• Primaris Master B-
• Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought B-
• Damocles Command Rhino B-
• Belial (Legendary) B-
• Chaplain on Bike B-
• Interrogator-Chaplain in Terminator Armour (Legendary) B-
• Interrogator-Chaplain on Bike B-
• Land Raider Excelsior C+
• Librarian in Terminator Armour (Legendary) B-
• Librarian on Bike B-
• Rhino Primaris C+
• Techmarine (Legendary) B-
• Techmarine on Bike B-
• Company Master A-
• Company Master in Gravis Armour A-
• Company Master in Terminator Armour A-
Troops
• Scout Squad A+
• Tactical Squad C+
• Incursor Squad B+
• Infiltrator Squad B+
• Intercessor Squad A+
Dedicated Transport
• Drop Pod B+
• Impulsor A-
• Land Speeder Storm C-
• Razorback C+
• Repulsor B-
• Rhino C+
• Infernum Pattern Razorback C+
• Lucius Pattern Dreadnought Drop Pod C+
• Terrax-pattern Termite Assault Drill C+
Elites
• Aggressor Squad A+
• Apothecary B+
• Chapter Ancient B-
• Company Ancient B-
• Company Champion C-
• Company Veterans B+
• Contemptor Dreadnought B+
• Deathwing Ancient C-
• Deathwing Apothecary C+
• Deathwing Cataphractii Terminator Squad C+
• Deathwing Champion C-
• Deathwing Knights B+
• Deathwing Tartaros Terminator Squad C+
• Deathwing Terminator Squad B+
• Dreadnought B+
• Primaris Ancient B+
• Primaris Apothecary C+
• Ravenwing Ancient B-
• Ravenwing Apothecary B+
• Ravenwing Champion B-
• Redemptor Dreadnought B+
• Reiver Squad C+
• Servitors B+
• Venerable Dreadnought B+
• Invictor Tactical Warsuit A+
• Deimos Pattern Relic Predator B+
• Relic Contemptor Dreadnought B+
• Relic Deredeo Dreadnought B+
• Relic Javelin Attack Speeder B+
• Relic Sicaran Battle Tank B+
• Relic Sicaran Punisher Assault Tank B+
• Relic Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer B+
• Relic Whirlwind Scorpius B+
• Dreadnought (Legendary) B+
• Imperial Space Marine B+
• Venerable Dreadnought (Legendary) B+
Fast Attack
• Assault Squad D+
• Inceptor Squad C+
• Ravenwing Attack Bike Squad C+
• Ravenwing Bike Squad B+
• Ravenwing Black Knights A+
• Ravenwing Darkshroud A-
• Ravenwing Land Speeder Vengeance B-
• Ravenwing Land Speeders B-
• Scout Bike Squad B+
• Suppressor Squad B+
• Deathstorm Drop Pod B+
• Land Speeder Tempest C-
• Tarantula Air Defence Battery B+
• Tarantula Sentry Gun B+
Flyers
• Nephilim Jetfighter B-
• Ravenwing Dark Talon A-
• Stormraven Gunship B-
• Caestus Assault Ram B-
• Fire Raptor Assault Gunship B-
• Storm Eagle Assault Gunship B-
• Xiphon Interceptor B-
Heavy Support
• Devastator Squad B+
• Hellblaster Squad B+
• Hunter B+
• Land Raider C+
• Land Raider Crusader C+
• Land Raider Redeemer C+
• Predator C+
• Stalker C+
• Vindicator C+
• Whirlwind C+
• Eliminator Squad C+
• Repulsor Executioner A+
• Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought A+
• Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer C+
• Land Raider Achilles C+
• Land Raider Helios C+
• Land Raider Prometheus C+
• Mortis Dreadnought B+
• Rapier Carrier B+
• Relic Land Raider Proteus C+
• Relic Leviathan Dreadnought A+
• Siege Dreadnought C+
• Whirlwind Hyperios C+
Lords of War
• Relic Cerberus Heavy Tank Destroyer C+
• Relic Falchion Super-heavy Tank Destroyer C+
• Relic Fellblade Super-heavy Tank C+
• Relic Mastodon Super-heavy Siege Transport C+
• Relic Spartan Assault Tank C+
• Relic Typhon Heavy Siege Tank C+
• Sokar Pattern Stormbird C+
• Thunderhawk Assault Gunship D-
• Thunderhawk Transporter D-

DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG
HQ
• Tank Commander B+
• Death Korps Death Rider Squadron Commander C+
• Death Korps Field Officer B+
• Death Korps Marshal B+
• Death Korps Marshal Karis Venner B+
Troops
• Death Korps Grenadier Storm Squad B+
• Death Korps Infantry Squad B+
Dedicated Transport
• Centaur Light Carrier C+
• Death Korps Centaur Light Assault Carrier C+
• Death Korps of Krieg Storm Chimera C+
• Trojan Support Vehicle C+
Elites
• Master of Ordnance C+
• Atlas Recovery Tank C+
• Death Korps Combat Engineer Squad C+
• Death Korps Commissar C+
• Death Korps Death Rider Command Squadron C+
• Death Korps Death Rider Commissar C+
• Death Korps of Krieg Command Squad C+
• Death Korps Quartermaster Cadre C+
• Hades Breaching Drill Squadron C+
Fast Attack
• Hellhounds C+
• Death Korps Death Rider Squadron C+
• Salamander Scout Tank C+
Heavy Support
• Basilisks C+
• Hydras C+
• Armageddon Pattern Medusa C+
• Colossus Bombard C+
• Cyclops Demolition Vehicle C+
• Death Korps Heavy Weapons Squad C+
• Death Korps Leman Russ Mars-Alpha Battle Tanks C+
• Earthshaker Carriage Battery C+
• Griffon Mortar Carrier C+
• Heavy Mortar Battery C+
• Heavy Quad Launcher Battery C+
• Malcador Annihilator C+
• Malcador Defender C+
• Malcador Heavy Tank C+
• Malcador Infernus C+
• Medusa Carriage Battery C+
• Rapier Laser Destroyer C+
• Stygies Destroyer Tank Hunter C+
• Stygies Thunderer Siege Tank C+
Lords of War
• Baneblade C+
• Shadowsword C+
• Stormsword C+
• Arkurian Pattern Stormblade C+
• Gorgon Heavy Transporter C+
• Macharius Heavy Tank C+
• Macharius Omega C+
• Macharius Vanquisher C+
• Macharius Vulcan C+
• Minotaur Artillery Tank C+

DEATHWATCH
HQ
• Librarian B-
• Librarian in Terminator Armour C-
• Primaris Librarian B-
• Primaris Watch Captain A-
• Watch Captain A-
• Watch Captain Artemis B-
• Watch Captain in Terminator Armour B-
• Watch Master A-
• Chaplain A-
• Chaplain in Terminator Armour B-
• Primaris Chaplain B-
• Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought A-
• Damocles Command Rhino C+
• Chaplain (Legendary) A-
• Librarian (Legendary) B-
Troops
• Veterans A+
• Intercessors A+
Dedicated Transport
• Drop Pod B+
• Razorback C+
• Repulsor B+
• Rhino C+
• Infernum Pattern Razorback C+
• Lucius Pattern Dreadnought Drop Pod C+
• Terrax-pattern Termite Assault Drill C+
Elites
• Aggressors B+
• Dreadnought C+
• Primaris Apothecary C+
• Redemptor Dreadnought C+
• Reivers C+
• Terminators C+
• Vanguard Veterans C+
• Venerable Dreadnought C+
• Deimos Pattern Relic Predator C+
• Relic Contemptor Dreadnought C+
• Relic Deredeo Dreadnought C+
• Relic Javelin Attack Speeder C+
• Relic Sicaran Battle Tank C+
• Relic Sicaran Punisher Assault Tank C+
• Relic Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer C+
• Relic Whirlwind Scorpius C+
Fast Attack
• Bikers C+
• Inceptors C+
• Deathstorm Drop Pod C+
• Land Speeder Tempest C+
• Tarantula Air Defence Battery C+
• Tarantula Sentry Gun C+
Flyers
• Corvus Blackstar B-
• Caestus Assault Ram C-
• Fire Raptor Assault Gunship C-
• Storm Eagle Assault Gunship C-
• Xiphon Interceptor C-
Heavy Support
• Hellblasters B-
• Land Raider C+
• Land Raider Crusader C+
• Land Raider Redeemer C+
• Repulsor Executioner C+
• Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought B+
• Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer C+
• Land Raider Achilles C+
• Land Raider Helios C+
• Land Raider Prometheus C+
• Mortis Dreadnought B+
• Rapier Carrier B+
• Relic Land Raider Proteus C+
• Relic Leviathan Dreadnought B+
• Siege Dreadnought C+
• Whirlwind Hyperios C+
Lords of War
• Relic Cerberus Heavy Tank Destroyer C+
• Relic Falchion Super-heavy Tank Destroyer C+
• Relic Fellblade Super-heavy Tank C+
• Relic Mastodon Super-heavy Siege Transport C+
• Relic Spartan Assault Tank C+
• Relic Typhon Heavy Siege Tank C+
• Sokar Pattern Stormbird C-
• Thunderhawk Assault Gunship C-
• Thunderhawk Transporter C-

ELYSIAN DROP TROOPS
HQ
• Elysian Company Commander B-
• Elysian Lord Commissar D-
Troops
• Elysian Drop Trooper Squad C-
Elites
• Officer of the Fleet C-
• Elysian Command Squad C-
• Elysian Drop Sentinels C+
• Elysian Platoon Commander C-
• Elysian Sniper Squad C-
• Elysian Special Weapons Squad C-
• Elysian Veteran Squad C-
Fast Attack
• Tauros Assault Vehicle C+
• Tauros Venator C+
Flyers
• Valkyries C-
• Avenger Strike Fighter C-
• Lightning Strike Fighter C-
• Thunderbolt Heavy Fighter C-
• Valkyrie Sky Talon C-
• Vendetta Gunship C-
• Vulture Gunship C-
Heavy Support
• Cyclops Demolition Vehicle C+
• Elysian Heavy Weapons Squad C-
• Tarantula Battery C-

GREY KNIGHTS
HQ
• Brother-Captain A-
• Brother-Captain Stern B-
• Brotherhood Champion C-
• Castellan Crowe B-
• Grand Master A-
• Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight A-
• Grand Master Voldus A-
• Librarian A-
• Lord Kaldor Draigo A-
• Techmarine C+
• Chaplain A-
• Techmarine (Legendary) C+
Troops
• Strike Squad A-
• Terminator Squad C+
Dedicated Transport
• Razorback C+
• Rhino C+
• Vortimer Pattern Razorback D+
Elites
• Apothecary B+
• Brotherhood Ancient C-
• Dreadnought B+
• Paladin Ancient C-
• Paladin Squad A+
• Purifier Squad C-
• Servitors C+
• Venerable Dreadnought B+
• Doomglaive Pattern Dreadnought C+
• Dreadnought (Legendary) B+
• Venerable Dreadnought (Legendary) B+
Fast Attack
• Interceptor Squad B+
Flyers
• Stormhawk Interceptor C-
• Stormraven Gunship D-
• Stormtalon Gunship C-
Heavy Support
• Land Raider C+
• Land Raider Crusader C+
• Land Raider Redeemer C+
• Nemesis Dreadknight B+
• Purgation Squad C+
• Vortimer Pattern Land Raider Redeemer C+
Lords of War
• Thunderhawk Assault Gunship D-
Wargear Notes
• Dual falchions are OP on models with one attack.
IMPERIAL KNIGHTS
Lords of War
• Armiger Helverin B+
• Armiger Warglaive C+
• Canis Rex D+
• Knight Castellan B-
• Knight Crusader A-
• Knight Errant A-
• Knight Gallant A-
• Knight Paladin A-
• Knight Preceptor C-
• Knight Valiant B-
• Knight Warden B-
• Acastus Knight Asterius C-
• Acastus Knight Porphyrion C-
• Armiger Moirax A+
• Cerastus Knight-Acheron C-
• Cerastus Knight-Atrapos C-
• Cerastus Knight-Castigator C-
• Cerastus Knight-Lancer C-
• Questoris Knight Magaera C-
• Questoris Knight Styrix C-
Fortifications
• Sacristan Forgeshrine D-

INQUISITION
HQ
• Inquisitor C-
• Inquisitor Coteaz B-
• Inquisitor Eisenhorn C-
• Inquisitor Greyfax C-
• Inquisitor Karamazov D-
• Lord Inquisitor Kyria Draxus C-
• Ordo Malleus Inquisitor in Terminator Armour B-
• Inquisitor-Lord Hector Rex C-
• Inquistor-Lord Solomon Lok C-
• Inquisitor (Legendary) C-
Elites
• Acolytes D+
• Daemonhost D+
• Jokaero Weaponsmith C+
Heavy Support
• Inquisition Land Raider Prometheus D+

OFFICIO ASSASSINORUM
Elites
• Callidus Assassin C-
• Culexus Assassin C-
• Eversor Assassin D-
• Vindicare Assassin C-

ROGUE TRADERS
HQ
• Elucia Vhane C-
• Aradia Madellan C-
• Daedalosus C-
• Janus Draik C-
• Neyam Shai Murad C-
• Taddeus the Purifier C-
Troops
• Nitsch’s Squad C-
Elites
• Knosso Prond C-
• Larsen van der Grauss C-
• Sanistasia Minst C-
• Amallyn Shadowguide C-
• Dahyak Grekh C-
• Espern Locarno C-
• Gotfret de Montbard C-
• Pious Vorne C-
• Rein and Raus B-
• UR-025 C-
• X-101 C-

SISTERS OF SILENCE
Dedicated Transport
• Null-Maiden Rhino C+
Elites
• Prosecutors D-
• Vigilators D-
• Witchseekers D-

SPACE MARINES
HQ
• Captain A-
• Captain in Cataphractii Armour B-
• Captain in Gravis Armour B-
• Captain in Phobos Armour A-
• Captain in Terminator Armour B-
• Captain on Bike A-
• Chaplain A-
• Chaplain in Terminator Armour B-
• Librarian A-
• Librarian in Phobos Armour A-
• Librarian in Terminator Armour B-
• Lieutenants A-
• Lieutenants in Phobos Armour B-
• Primaris Captain A-
• Primaris Chaplain A-
• Primaris Librarian B-
• Primaris Lieutenants B-
• Techmarine C-
• Adrax Agatone B-
• Captain Lysander C-
• Captain Sicarius C-
• Chaplain Cassius B-
• Chief Librarian Tigurius A-
• Iron Father Feirros A-
• Kayvaan Shrike B-
• Khan on Bike A-
• Kor’sarro Khan B-
• Marneus Calgar A-
• Pedro Kantor A-
• Sergeant Chronus C-
• Sergeant Telion B-
• Tor Garadon A-
• Vulkan He’stan B-
• Chaplain Grimaldus B-
• High Marshal Helbrecht B-
• Marneus Calgar in Armour of Heraclus A-
• The Emperor’s Champion C-
• Gabriel Angelos B-
• Ahazra Redth B-
• Arch-Centurion Carnac Commodus B-
• Armenneus Valthex B-
• Bray’arth Ashmantle B-
• Captain Corien Sumatris B-
• Captain Mordaci Blaylock B-
• Captain Pellas Mir’san B-
• Captain Silas Alberec B-
• Captain Tarnus Vale B-
• Captain Zhrukhal Androcles B-
• Carab Culln the Risen D+
• Chaplain Dreadnought Titus B-
• Chaplain Ivanus Enkomi B-
• Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought A-
• Damocles Command Rhino C-
• Harath Shen B-
• Hecaton Aiakos B-
• High Chaplain Thulsa Kane B-
• Knight-Captain Elam Courbray B-
• Lias Issodon B-
• Lieutenant Commander Anton Narvaez B-
• Lord Asterion Moloc B-
• Lord High Commander Carab Culln B-
• Lugft Huron B-
• Magister Sevrin Loth B-
• Malakim Phoros B-
• Tyberos the Red Wake B-
• Vaylund Cal B-
• Chaplain on Bike B-
• Kor’sarro Khan on Moondrakkan B-
• Land Raider Excelsior C+
• Librarian in Terminator Armour (Legendary) B-
• Librarian on Bike B-
• Rhino Primaris C+
• Techmarine on Bike C-
Troops
• Incursor Squad B+
• Infiltrator Squad B+
• Intercessor Squad A+
• Scout Squad B+
• Tactical Squad C+
• Crusader Squad D+
Dedicated Transport
• Drop Pod B-
• Impulsor B+
• Land Speeder Storm B+
• Razorback C+
• Repulsor A+
• Rhino C+
• Infernum Pattern Razorback C+
• Lucius Pattern Dreadnought Drop Pod C-
• Terrax-pattern Termite Assault Drill C+
Elites
• Aggressor Squad A+
• Ancient in Terminator Armour C-
• Apothecary B+
• Cataphractii Terminator Squad C+
• Centurion Assault Squad A+
• Company Ancient B-
• Company Champion C-
• Company Veterans B+
• Contemptor Dreadnought B+
• Dreadnought B+
• Invictor Tactical Warsuit A+
• Ironclad Dreadnought C+
• Primaris Ancient C-
• Primaris Apothecary B+
• Redemptor Dreadnought B+
• Reiver Squad D-
• Servitors C+
• Sternguard Veteran Squad C+
• Tartaros Terminator Squad C+
• Terminator Assault Squad C+
• Terminator Squad C+
• Vanguard Veteran Squad C+
• Venerable Dreadnought B+
• Chapter Ancient B-
• Chapter Champion B-
• Honour Guard C+
• Tyrannic War Veterans C+
• Victrix Honour Guard B+
• Cenobyte Servitors B+
• Deimos Pattern Relic Predator C+
• Relic Contemptor Dreadnought B+
• Relic Deredeo Dreadnought A+
• Relic Javelin Attack Speeder B-
• Relic Sicaran Arcus Strike Tank C+
• Relic Sicaran Battle Tank B+
• Relic Sicaran Omega Tank Destroyer B+
• Relic Sicaran Punisher Assault Tank B+
• Relic Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer B+
• Relic Whirlwind Scorpius A+
• Apothecary on Bike C+
• Company Ancient on Bike C-
• Company Champion on Bike C-
• Company Veterans on Bikes B+
• Damned Legionnaires C+
• Dreadnought (Legendary) B+
• Venerable Dreadnought (Legendary) B+
Fast Attack
• Assault Squad D+
• Attack Bike Squad C+
• Bike Squad B+
• Inceptor Squad C-
• Land Speeders C-
• Scout Bike Squad A+
• Suppressor Squad A-
• Deathstorm Drop Pod C+
• Land Speeder Tempest C-
• Tarantula Air Defence Battery B+
• Tarantula Sentry Gun B+
Flyers
• Stormhawk Interceptor A+
• Stormraven Gunship C+
• Stormtalon Gunship A+
• Caestus Assault Ram C+
• Fire Raptor Assault Gunship C+
• Storm Eagle Assault Gunship C+
• Storm Eagle Assault Gunship – ROC pattern C+
• Xiphon Interceptor C+
Heavy Support
• Centurion Devastator Squad B+
• Devastator Squad B+
• Eliminator Squad A+
• Hellblaster Squad B+
• Hunter B+
• Land Raider C+
• Land Raider Crusader C+
• Land Raider Redeemer C+
• Predator C+
• Repulsor Executioner A-
• Stalker B+
• Thunderfire Cannon A+
• Vindicator C+
• Whirlwind B+
• Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought A+
• Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer C+
• Land Raider Achilles C+
• Land Raider Helios C+
• Land Raider Prometheus C+
• Mortis Dreadnought B+
• Rapier Carrier B+
• Relic Land Raider Proteus C+
• Relic Leviathan Dreadnought A+
• Siege Dreadnought C+
• Whirlwind Hyperios C+
Lords of War
• Roboute Guilliman B+
• Astraeus Super-heavy Tank C+
• Relic Cerberus Heavy Tank Destroyer C+
• Relic Falchion Super-heavy Tank Destroyer C+
• Relic Fellblade Super-heavy Tank C+
• Relic Mastodon Super-heavy Siege Transport C+
• Relic Spartan Assault Tank C+
• Relic Typhon Heavy Siege Tank C+
• Sokar Pattern Stormbird C-
• Thunderhawk Assault Gunship C-
• Thunderhawk Transporter C-
• Terminus Ultra C+
Fortifications
• Castellum Stronghold C+
Wargear Notes
• Plasma, storm bolters and storm shields are strong. Melta and missile launchers are weak, flamers are mostly useless.
SPACE WOLVES
HQ
• Primaris Lieutenants B-
• Arjac Rockfist B-
• Battle Leaders in Phobos Armour B-
• Bjorn the Fell-handed B-
• Canis Wolfborn C-
• Harald Deathwolf C-
• Iron Priest C-
• Krom Dragongaze B-
• Logan Grimnar B-
• Njal Stormcaller B-
• Njal Stormcaller in Runic Terminator Armour B-
• Primaris Battle Leader B-
• Primaris Rune Priest A-
• Primaris Wolf Lord B-
• Rune Priest B-
• Rune Priest in Terminator Armour C-
• Ulrik the Slayer C+
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader B-
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader in Terminator Armour B-
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader on Thunderwolf B-
• Wolf Lord A-
• Wolf Lord in Cataphractii Armour B-
• Wolf Lord in Gravis Armour B-
• Wolf Lord in Terminator Armour B-
• Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf B-
• Logan Grimnar on Stormrider C-
• Primaris Battle Leaders in Phobos Armour B-
• Primaris Wolf Priest C+
• Ragnar Blackmane A-
• Rune Priest in Phobos Armour B-
• Wolf Lord in Phobos Armour B-
• Wolf Priest C+
• Wolf Priest in Terminator Armour C+
• Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought A+
• Damocles Command Rhino C+
• Iron Priest (Legendary) C-
• Iron Priest on Bike C-
• Iron Priest on Thunderwolf C-
• Land Raider Excelsior C+
• Rhino Primaris C+
• Rune Priest (Legendary) B-
• Rune Priest on Bike B-
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader on Bike B-
• Wolf Lord on Bike B-
• Wolf Priest (Legendary) C+
• Wolf Priest on Bike D+
Troops
• Blood Claws B-
• Grey Hunters C+
• Incursors B+
• Infiltrators B+
• Intercessors A+
Dedicated Transport
• Drop Pod B-
• Impulsor B+
• Land Speeder Storm B+
• Razorback C+
• Repulsor A+
• Rhino C+
• Infernum Pattern Razorback C+
• Lucius Pattern Dreadnought Drop Pod C-
• Terrax-pattern Termite Assault Drill C+
Elites
• Aggressors A+
• Contemptor Dreadnought B+
• Dreadnought B+
• Great Company Ancient B-
• Great Company Champion C-
• Lukas the Trickster C-
• Murderfang B+
• Primaris Ancient B-
• Redemptor Dreadnought B+
• Reivers D-
• Servitors C+
• Venerable Dreadnought B+
• Wolf Guard B+
• Wolf Guard Cataphractii Terminators C+
• Wolf Guard Tartaros Terminators C+
• Wolf Guard Terminators B+
• Wolf Scouts A+
• Wulfen A+
• Wulfen Dreadnought C+
• Invictor Tactical Warsuit A+
• Deimos Pattern Relic Predator B+
• Relic Contemptor Dreadnought B+
• Relic Deredeo Dreadnought B+
• Relic Javelin Attack Speeder B-
• Relic Sicaran Battle Tank B+
• Relic Sicaran Punisher Assault Tank B+
• Relic Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer B+
• Relic Whirlwind Scorpius B+
• Dreadnought (Legendary) B+
• Lone Wolf C+
• Lone Wolf in Terminator Armour C+
• Venerable Dreadnought (Legendary) B+
• Wolf Guard on Bikes B+
Fast Attack
• Cyberwolves D+
• Fenrisian Wolves C+
• Inceptors C-
• Land Speeders C-
• Skyclaws C+
• Swiftclaw Attack Bikes C+
• Swiftclaws C+
• Thunderwolf Cavalry B+
• Wolf Scout Bikers C-
• Suppressors A-
• Deathstorm Drop Pod C+
• Land Speeder Tempest C-
• Tarantula Air Defence Battery B+
• Tarantula Sentry Gun B+
Flyers
• Stormfang Gunship B-
• Stormhawk Interceptor B-
• Stormwolf B-
• Caestus Assault Ram C+
• Fire Raptor Assault Gunship C+
• Storm Eagle Assault Gunship C+
• Xiphon Interceptor C+
Heavy Support
• Hellblasters B+
• Hunter B+
• Land Raider C+
• Land Raider Crusader C+
• Land Raider Redeemer C+
• Long Fangs B+
• Predator C+
• Stalker C+
• Vindicator C+
• Whirlwind C+
• Eliminators A-
• Repulsor Executioner A-
• Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought A+
• Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer C+
• Land Raider Achilles C+
• Land Raider Helios C+
• Land Raider Prometheus C+
• Mortis Dreadnought B+
• Rapier Carrier B+
• Relic Land Raider Proteus B+
• Relic Leviathan Dreadnought A+
• Siege Dreadnought C+
• Whirlwind Hyperios C+
Lords of War
• Relic Cerberus Heavy Tank Destroyer C+
• Relic Falchion Super-heavy Tank Destroyer C+
• Relic Fellblade Super-heavy Tank C+
• Relic Mastodon Super-heavy Siege Transport C+
• Relic Spartan Assault Tank C+
• Relic Typhon Heavy Siege Tank C+
• Sokar Pattern Stormbird C-
• Thunderhawk Assault Gunship C-
• Thunderhawk Transporter C-
Wargear Notes
• Plasma, storm bolters and storm shields are strong. Melta and missile launchers are weak, flamers are mostly useless.
TITAN LEGION
Lords of War
• Reaver Battle Titan D-
• Warbringer Nemesis Titan D-
• Warhound Scout Titan D-
• Warlord Battle Titan D-

CHAOS BASTIONS
Fortifications
• Chaos Bastion D-
CHAOS DAEMONS
HQ
• Herald of Nurgle B-
• Be’lakor C-
• Blood Throne C-
• Bloodmaster B-
• Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage C+
• Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury C+
• Changecaster B-
• Daemon Prince of Chaos A-
• Epidemius B-
• Fateskimmer B-
• Fluxmaster B-
• Great Unclean One B+
• Herald of Slaanesh B-
• Horticulous Slimux B-
• Kairos Fateweaver B-
• Karanak B-
• Lord of Change C+
• Poxbringer B-
• Rotigus C+
• Skarbrand C+
• Skullmaster B-
• Skulltaker B-
• Sloppity Bilepiper B-
• Spoilpox Scrivener B-
• The Blue Scribes B-
• The Changeling B-
• The Masque of Slaanesh B-
• Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster C+
• Contorted Epitome A-
• Herald of Slaanesh on Exalted Seeker Chariot C-
• Herald of Slaanesh on Hellflayer C-
• Herald of Slaanesh on Seeker Chariot C-
• Infernal Enrapturess C-
• Keeper of Secrets C+
• Shalaxi Helbane C+
• Syll’Esske, the Vengeful Allegiance C+
• Cor’bax Utterblight C+
• Samus C+
• Uraka the Warfiend C+
• Herald of Slaanesh on Steed C+
Troops
• Bloodletters B-
• Daemonettes C-
• Nurglings A-
• Plaguebearers B-
• Horrors C+
Elites
• Beasts of Nurgle C+
• Exalted Flamer C-
• Flamers C+
• Bloodcrushers D+
• Fiends C+
Fast Attack
• Furies C+
• Hellflayer D+
• Plague Drones C+
• Screamers C+
• Flesh Hounds C+
• Seekers C+
• Plague Toads of Nurgle C+
• Pox Riders of Nurgle C+
Heavy Support
• Burning Chariot C+
• Exalted Seeker Chariot C+
• Seeker Chariot D+
• Skull Cannon C+
• Soul Grinder C+
• Giant Chaos Spawn C+
• Plague Hulk of Nurgle C+
• Spined Chaos Beast C+
Lords of War
• Aetaos’rau’keres D-
• An’ggrath the Unbound D-
• Scabeiathrax the Bloated D-
• Zarakynel the Bringer of Torments D-
Fortifications
• Feculent Gnarlmaw C+
• Skull Altar D-
CHAOS KNIGHTS
Lords of War
• Knight Desecrator C-
• Knight Despoiler A-
• Knight Rampager C-
• Knight Tyrant B-
• War Dog B+
• Acastus Knight Asterius C-
• Acastus Knight Porphyrion C-
• Cerastus Knight-Acheron C-
• Cerastus Knight-Atrapos C-
• Cerastus Knight-Castigator C-
• Cerastus Knight-Lancer C-
• Questoris Knight Magaera C-
• Questoris Knight Styrix C-
• War Dog Moirax A+

CHAOS SPACE MARINES
HQ
• Abaddon the Despoiler A-
• Chaos Lord A-
• Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour B-
• Cypher C-
• Daemon Prince A-
• Dark Apostle A-
• Exalted Champion B-
• Haarken Worldclaimer C-
• Huron Blackheart C-
• Khârn the Betrayer C-
• Lord Discordant on Helstalker A+
• Lucius the Eternal C-
• Master of Executions B-
• Master of Possession A-
• Sorcerer A-
• Sorcerer in Terminator Armour C-
• Warpsmith C-
• Fabius Bile C-
• Obsidius Mallex C-
• Traitor Commissar C-
• Chaos Hellwright C-
• Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant C-
• Lord Arkos C-
• Zhufor the Impaler C-
• Chaos Lord on Bike C-
• Chaos Lord on Disc of Tzeentch C-
• Chaos Lord on Juggernaut of Khorne C-
• Chaos Lord on Palanquin of Nurgle C-
• Chaos Lord on Steed of Slaanesh C-
• Sorcerer on Bike C-
• Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch C-
• Sorcerer on Palanquin of Nurgle C-
• Sorcerer on Steed of Slaanesh C-
Troops
• Chaos Cultists A+
• Chaos Space Marines C+
• Black Legionnaires C-
• Chaos Beastman C-
• Cultists of the Abyss C-
• Traitor Guardsman C-
Dedicated Transport
• Chaos Rhino C+
• Terrax-pattern Termite Assault Drill C+
Elites
• Chosen C+
• Dark Disciples C+
• Fallen D+
• Greater Possessed A-
• Helbrute C+
• Khorne Berzerkers C+
• Mutilators D+
• Noise Marines B+
• Plague Marines B+
• Possessed A-
• Rubric Marines B+
• Terminators B+
• Chaos Ogryn C-
• Cultist Firebrand C-
• Negavolt Cultists B-
• Rogue Psyker B-
• Chaos Decimator C+
• Ferrum Infernus Chaos Dreadnought C+
• Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought A+
• Hellforged Predator C+
• Hellforged Sicaran C+
Fast Attack
• Bikers B+
• Chaos Spawn C+
• Raptors C-
• Warp Talons B+
• Blood Slaughterer of Khorne C+
• Greater Blight Drone C+
• Hellforged Dreadclaw Drop Pod C+
• Hellforged Kharybdis Assault Claw C+
Flyers
• Heldrake B-
• Chaos Fire Raptor Assault Gunship C-
• Chaos Hell Blade C-
• Chaos Hell Talon C-
• Chaos Storm Eagle Assault Gunship C-
• Chaos Xiphon Interceptor C-
Heavy Support
• Chaos Land Raider C+
• Chaos Predator C+
• Chaos Vindicator C+
• Defiler C+
• Forgefiend C+
• Havocs A+
• Maulerfiend C+
• Obliterators A+
• Venomcrawler C+
• Chaos Vindicator Laser Destroyer C+
• Hellforged Deredeo Dreadnought A+
• Hellforged Land Raider Achilles C+
• Hellforged Land Raider Proteus C+
• Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought A+
• Hellforged Rapier Battery C+
• Hellforged Scorpius C+
• Hellforged Sicaran Venator C+
Lords of War
• Khorne Lord of Skulls A-
• Chaos Sokar Pattern Stormbird Gunship C-
• Chaos Thunderhawk Assault Gunship C-
• Greater Brass Scorpion of Khorne C-
• Hellforged Cerberus Heavy Destroyer C-
• Hellforged Falchion C-
• Hellforged Fellblade C-
• Hellforged Mastodon C-
• Hellforged Spartan Assault Tank C-
• Hellforged Typhon Heavy Siege Tank C-
• Kytan Ravager C-
Fortifications
• Chaos Bastion C-
• Noctilith Crown C-

DEATH GUARD
HQ
• Daemon Prince of Nurgle A-
• Lord of Contagion B-
• Malignant Plaguecaster C-
• Typhus C-
• Vulgrar Thrice-Cursed C-
• Lord Felthius C-
• Cor’bax Utterblight C-
• Mamon Transfigured C-
• Necrosius the Undying C-
Troops
• Poxwalkers B-
• Glitchlings D-
• The Vox-Shamblers D-
Elites
• Biologus Putrifier A-
• Blightlord Terminators B+
• Deathshroud Terminators B+
• Foul Blightspawn B-
• Noxious Blightbringer B-
• Plague Surgeon C+
• Tallyman C-
• The Hullbreakers D+
• Felthius’ Cohort D+
Fast Attack
• Foetid Bloat-drone B+
• Myphitic Blight-Haulers B+
• Cursemites D-
• Eyestinger Swarms D-
• Sludge-Grubs D-
Heavy Support
• Plagueburst Crawler A+
Lords of War
• Mortarion B+
HERETIC TITAN LEGIONS
Lords of War
• Chaos Reaver Battle Titan D-
• Chaos Warhound Scout Titan D-
• Chaos Warlord Battle Titan D-

RENEGADES AND HERETICS
HQ
• Malefic Lord D-
• Renegade Commander D-
• Rogue Psyker Coven D-
Troops
• Renegade Cultists D-
• Renegade Militia Squad D-
• Renegade Mutant Rabble D-
Dedicated Transport
• Chimera C+
Elites
• Renegade Command Squad D+
• Renegade Disciple Squad D+
• Renegade Enforcer D+
• Renegade Marauder Squad B+
• Renegade Ogryn Beast Handlers D-
• Renegade Ogryn Brutes D-
• Renegade Plague Ogryns D-
Fast Attack
• Armoured Sentinels C+
• Hellhounds C+
• Scout Sentinels C+
• Chaos Spawn D+
• Salamander Scout Tank C+
Flyers
• Valkyries C-
• Arvus Lighter C-
Heavy Support
• Basilisks B+
• Hydras C+
• Leman Russ Battle Tanks C+
• Leman Russ Demolishers C+
• Wyverns C+
• Armageddon Pattern Medusa C+
• Colossus Bombard C+
• Earthshaker Battery C+
• Earthshaker Carriage Battery C+
• Griffon Mortar Carrier C+
• Heavy Mortar Battery C+
• Heavy Quad Launcher Battery C+
• Malcador Defender C+
• Malcador Heavy Tank C+
• Medusa Carriage Battery C+
• Rapier Laser Destroyer C+
• Renegade Heavy Weapons Squad B+
Lords of War
• Baneblade C-
• Macharius Heavy Tank C-
• Macharius Omega C-
• Macharius Vanquisher C-
• Macharius Vulcan C-
• Minotaur Artillery Tank C-
• Valdor Tank Hunter C-

THOUSAND SONS
HQ
• Ahriman A-
• Daemon Prince of Tzeentch A-
• Exalted Sorcerer A-
• Sorcerer A-
• Sorcerer in Terminator Armour A-
• Sorcerer (Legendary) A-
• Sorcerer in Terminator Armour (Legendary) A-
• Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch B-
Troops
• Tzaangors B-
Elites
• Helbrute B+
• Scarab Occult Terminators C+
• Tzaangor Shaman B-
Fast Attack
• Tzaangor Enlightened B-
Heavy Support
• Mutalith Vortex Beast C+
Lords of War
• Magnus the Red B+

CRAFTWORLDS
HQ
• Asurmen C-
• Autarch B-
• Autarch Skyrunner B-
• Autarch with Swooping Hawk Wings B-
• Avatar of Khaine C-
• Baharroth C-
• Eldrad Ulthran A-
• Farseer A-
• Farseer Skyrunner A-
• Fuegan C-
• Illic Nightspear C-
• Karandras C-
• Maugan Ra C-
• Prince Yriel C-
• Spiritseer B-
• Warlock B-
• Warlock Conclave B-
• Warlock Skyrunner B-
• Warlock Skyrunner Conclave B-
• Jain Zar C-
• Irillyth C-
• Wraithseer A+
• Autarch (Legendary) B-
• Autarch Skyrunner (Legendary) A-
• Autarch with Swooping Hawk Wings (Legendary) B-
• Autarch with Warp Jump Generator B-
Troops
• Dire Avengers B+
• Guardian Defenders B+
• Rangers A+
• Storm Guardians B+
• Corsair Reaver Band C-
• Corsair Skyreaver Band C-
• Storm Guardians (Legendary) B+
Dedicated Transport
• Wave Serpent C+
• Corsair Venom C-
Elites
• Fire Dragons B+
• Striking Scorpions C+
• Wraithblades C+
• Wraithguard C+
• Howling Banshees B+
• Amallyn Shadowguide D-
• Shadow Spectres C-
• Bonesinger C-
• Striking Scorpions (Legendary) C+
Fast Attack
• Shining Spears B+
• Swooping Hawks B-
• Vypers C-
• Warp Spiders C+
• Windriders B-
• Corsair Cloud Dancer Band C-
• Hornet B-
• Wasp Assault Walker C-
• Swooping Hawks (Legendary) B-
• Warp Spiders (Legendary) C+
Flyers
• Crimson Hunter A-
• Crimson Hunter Exarch A-
• Hemlock Wraithfighter A-
• Nightwing A-
• Phoenix A-
Heavy Support
• Dark Reapers B+
• Falcon A-
• Fire Prism A-
• Night Spinner A-
• Support Weapons B-
• War Walkers B-
• Wraithlord C-
• Corsair Falcon C-
• Firestorm C-
• Lynx C-
• Warp Hunter C-
Lords of War
• Wraithknight C-
• Cobra C-
• Phantom Titan C-
• Revenant Titan C-
• Scorpion C-
• Skathach Wraithknight C-
• Vampire Hunter C-
• Vampire Raider C-

DRUKHARI
HQ
• Archon A-
• Haemonculus A-
• Lelith Hesperax B-
• Succubus B-
• Urien Rakarth B-
• Drazhar A-
• Archon (Legendary) A-
Troops
• Kabalite Warriors A-
• Wracks B+
• Wyches B-
Dedicated Transport
• Raider B-
• Venom A-
Elites
• Beastmaster C+
• Grotesques B+
• Lhamaean C+
• Mandrakes B+
• Medusae C+
• Sslyth C+
• Incubi C-
• Ur-Ghul C+
• Beastmaster (Legendary) C+
• Hekatrix Bloodbrides C+
• Kabalite Trueborn A+
Fast Attack
• Clawed Fiends C+
• Hellions D+
• Khymerae C+
• Razorwing Flocks C+
• Reavers B-
• Scourges B+
Flyers
• Razorwing Jetfighter B+
• Voidraven Bomber B+
• Raven Strike Fighter C+
Heavy Support
• Cronos C+
• Ravager A-
• Talos A+
• Reaper B-
• Tantalus B-

• Dark lances are generally considered to be bad.
HARLEQUINS
HQ
• Shadowseer A-
• Troupe Master B-
Troops
• Troupe C+
Dedicated Transport
• Starweaver B-
Elites
• Death Jester B-
• Solitaire A-
Fast Attack
• Skyweavers A-
Heavy Support
• Voidweaver C-
Fortifications
• Webway Gate D-
Wargear
• Neuro disruptors are overpriced and melee weapons are underpriced on Troupe Masters.
YNNARI
HQ
• The Visarch C-
• The Yncarne C-
• Yvraine C-

GENESTEALER CULTS
HQ
• Abominant B-
• Acolyte Iconward B-
• Jackal Alphus B-
• Magus B-
• Patriarch B-
• Primus B-
Troops B-
• Acolyte Hybrids B-
• Brood Brothers Infantry Squad B-
• Neophyte Hybrids B+
Dedicated Transport B-
• Cult Chimera C+
• Goliath Truck C+
Elites
• Aberrants B+
• Biophagus B-
• Clamavus B-
• Hybrid Metamorphs B-
• Kelermorph B-
• Locus B-
• Nexos B-
• Purestrain Genestealers B+
• Sanctus B-
Fast Attack
• Achilles Ridgerunners B+
• Atalan Jackals B+
• Cult Armoured Sentinels C+
• Cult Scout Sentinels C+
Heavy Support
• Brood Brothers Heavy Weapons Squad B-
• Cult Leman Russ C+
• Goliath Rockgrinder C+-
Fortifications
• Tectonic Fragdrill C+

NECRONS
HQ
• Anrakyr the Traveller B-
• Catacomb Command Barge B-
• Cryptek B+
• Destroyer Lord B-
• Imotekh the Stormlord A-
• Lord B-
• Nemesor Zahndrekh B-
• Orikan the Diviner B+
• Overlord B-
• Trazyn the Infinite C-
• Vargard Obyron B-
• Illuminor Szeras B-
• Kutlakh the World Killer B-
• Toholk the Blinded C-
Troops
• Immortals A-
• Necron Warriors C-
Dedicated Transport
• Ghost Ark B-
Elites
• C’tan Shard of the Deceiver A+
• C’tan Shard of the Nightbringer B-
• Deathmarks B-
• Flayed Ones B-
• Lychguard B-
• Triarch Praetorians B-
• Triarch Stalker A-
• Canoptek Tomb Stalker C+
Fast Attack
• Canoptek Scarabs B+
• Canoptek Wraiths B-
• Destroyers A-
• Tomb Blades A-
• Canoptek Acanthrites C+
• Canoptek Tomb Sentinel B+
Flyers
• Doom Scythe A-
• Night Scythe C+
• Night Shroud D-
Heavy Support
• Annihilation Barge C-
• Canoptek Spyders D+
• Doomsday Ark A-
• Heavy Destroyers A-
• Monolith D+
• Transcendent C’tan B-
• Sentry Pylon C+
• Tesseract Ark A-
Lords of War
• Obelisk D-
• Tesseract Vault B+
• Gauss Pylon B+
• Seraptek Heavy Construct B+
Fortifications
• Tomb Citadel D+

Wargear Notes
• Cryptek wargear is undercosted.
• Immortals with gauss blasters are not worth it compared to those with tesla blasters, tesla blasters are getting worse in 9th.
• Particle beamers are overcosted, especially on Canoptek Spyders.
• Fabricator claw array is undercosted relative to the base price of Canoptek Spyders.
• Shadowlooms are overcosted.

ORKS
HQ
• Big Mek in Mega Armour C-
• Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun A-
• Boss Snikrot C-
• Boss Zagstruk C-
• Deffkilla Wartrike B-
• Kaptin Badrukk C-
• Warboss A-
• Weirdboy A-
• Big Mek with Kustom Force Field A+
• Ghazghkull Thraka B-
• Makari B-
• Ork Mek Boss Buzzgob B-
• Zhadsnark da Ripper C-
• Big Mek C-
• Big Mek on Warbike C-
• Warboss in Mega Armour B-
• Warboss on Warbike A-
Troops
• Boyz A-
• Gretchin A+
Dedicated Transport
• Trukk C+
• Kart C+
• ‘Chinork’ Warkopta C+
Elites
• Burna Boyz C-
• Kommandos B-
• Mad Dok Grotsnik C+
• Meganobz C+
• Mek C+
• Nob with Waaagh! Banner B-
• Nobz C+
• Nobz on Warbikes C+
• Painboy B+
• Runtherd C-
• Tankbustas B+
• Burna Boyz (Legendary) C-
• Da Red Gobbo C-
• Kommandos (Legendary) B-
• Mek (Legendary) C-
• Painboy on Warbike B+
Fast Attack
• Boomdakka Snazzwagons C+
• Deffkoptas C-
• Kustom Boosta-blastas C+
• Megatrakk Scrapjets B+
• Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies B+
• Shokkjump Dragstas B+
• Stormboyz B+
• Warbikers C+
• Grot Bomm Launcha C+
• Grot Mega-tank C+
• Grot Tanks C+
• Deffkoptas (Legendary) C-
• Skorchas C+
• Warbuggies C+
• Wartrakks C+
Flyers
• Blitza-bommer B-
• Burna-bommer A-
• Dakkajet B-
• Wazbom Blastajet B-
• Attack Fighta C-
• Fighta-Bommer B-
Heavy Support
• Battlewagon C+
• Bonebreaka C+
• Deff Dreads C+
• Flash Gitz B+
• Gorkanaut B+
• Gunwagon C+
• Killa Kans C+
• Lootas A-
• Mek Gunz A+
• Morkanaut B+
• Wagon C+
• Battlewagon with Supa-kannon C+
• Big Trakk C+
• Lifta Wagon C+
• Meka-Dread C+
• Squiggoth C+
• Big Gunz B+
Lords of War
• Stompa D-
• Battle Fortress D-
• Dethrolla Battle Fortress D-
• Gargantuan Squiggoth D-
• Kill Krusha D-
• Kill Tank D-
• Kustom Stompa D-
Fortifications
• Mekboy Workshop D-

T’AU EMPIRE
HQ
• Aun’Shi C-
• Aun’Va C-
• Cadre Fireblade A-
• Commander Farsight B-
• Commander in XV8 Crisis Battlesuit A-
• Commander in XV85 Enforcer Battlesuit A-
• Commander in XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit A-
• Darkstrider A-
• Ethereal C-
• Longstrike B-
• Commander Shadowsun A-
• Commander in XV81 Crisis Battlesuit A-
• Commander in XV84 Crisis Battlesuit A-
• Shas’o R’alai B-
• Shas’o R’myr B-
Troops
• Breacher Team C+
• Kroot Carnivores C+
• Strike Team B+
Dedicated Transport
• TY7 Devilfish C+
Elites
• Firesight Marksman A-
• Kroot Shaper C-
• Krootox Riders C+
• XV104 Riptide Battlesuit A-
• XV25 Stealth Battlesuits B-
• XV8 Crisis Battlesuits B-
• XV8 Crisis Bodyguards C-
• XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuit B-
• Dahyak Grekh A-
• DX-4 Technical Drones B-
• XV9 Hazard Support Team B-
Fast Attack
• Kroot Hounds C+
• Pathfinder Team B+
• Tactical Drones A+
• TX4 Piranhas C-
• Vespid Stingwings B+
• Knarloc Riders C-
• Piranha TX-42 Light Skimmer C-
• Tetra Scout Speeder Team C-
• XV109 Y’vahra Battlesuit B-
Flyers
• AX3 Razorshark Strike Fighter C-
• AX39 Sun Shark Bomber B-
• Barracuda AX-5-2 C-
• DX-6 Remora Stealth Drone Squadron C-
• Orca Dropship C-
• Tiger Shark C-
• Tiger Shark AX-1-0 C-
Heavy Support
• MV71 Sniper Drones B-
• TX7 Hammerhead Gunship B-
• TX78 Sky Ray Gunship B-
• XV88 Broadside Battlesuits A+
• Great Knarloc D-
• Heavy Gun Drone Squadron C-
• TX7 Fire Support Hammerhead Gunship C-
• TX7 Heavy Bombardment Hammerhead Gunship C-
• XV107 R’varna Battlesuit C-
Lords of War
• KV128 Stormsurge B-
• The Eight C-
• KX139 Ta’unar Supremacy Armour B-
• Manta Super-heavy Dropship D-
Fortifications
• Tidewall Droneport C-
• Tidewall Gunrig C-
• Tidewall Shieldline C-
• Drone Sentry Turret C-
• Remote sensor tower C-

TYRANIDS
HQ
• Broodlord B-
• Hive Tyrant B-
• Neurothrope B-
• Old One Eye B-
• Tervigon B+
• The Swarmlord B-
• Tyranid Prime B-
• Malanthrope B-
Troops
• Genestealers B-
• Hormagaunts B-
• Ripper Swarm A-
• Termagants B-
• Tyranid Warriors A+
• Termagants (Legendary) B-
Dedicated Transport
• Tyrannocyte C+
Elites
• Deathleaper B-
• Haruspex C+
• Hive Guard A+
• Lictor C+
• Maleceptor C+
• Pyrovores C+
• The Red Terror C-
• Tyrant Guard C+
• Venomthropes C+
• Zoanthropes C-
Fast Attack
• Sky-Slasher Swarm C+
• Tyranid Shrikes C+
• Gargoyles C+
• Mucolid Spores C+
• Raveners C+
• Spore Mines C-
• Dimachaeron D+
• Meiotic Spores C+
Flyers
• Harpy C-
• Hive Crone C-
Heavy Support
• Biovores A-
• Carnifexes A+
• Exocrine A+
• Mawloc B+
• Screamer-Killers C+
• Thornbacks C+
• Toxicrene C+
• Trygon C+
• Trygon Prime C+
• Tyrannofex C+
• Stone Crusher Carnifex Brood C+
Lords of War
• Barbed Hierodule C+
• Harridan C-
• Hierophant Bio-titan D-
• Scythed Hierodule C+
Fortifications
• Sporocyst C+
Wargear Notes
• Winged Hive Tyrants get worse, the non-winged ones get better.

UNALIGNED
Troops
• Spindle Drones D+
Elites
• Ambull D+
• Borewyrm Infestation D+
• The Archivist D+
Fortifications
• Aegis Defence Line C-
• Firestorm Redoubt D-
• Fortress of Redemption D-
• Imperial Bastion C-
• Imperial Bunker C-
• Imperial Defence Line C-
• Macro-cannon Aquila Strongpoint D-
• Plasma Obliterator C-
• Skyshield Landing Pad C-
• Vengeance Weapon Batteries C-
• Void Shield Generator C-
• Vortex Missile Aquila Strongpoint D-
• Imperial Fortress Walls D-
• Primaris Redoubt D-

you can use the entire R&H non AM unts. Add a D and a -

Except to Marauders, which were a B but with a -

The tanks were in general the same with AM, but without traits , so you could use the same results you get for AM maybe subtract a rank because of the no trait thingy and tendencies

Keep in mind, the + or - has nothing to do with pts, just how rules interactions change with the new edition and FAQs. So something like Flayed Ones will not be able to get as many models to fight in melee and they can't snake back to a buffing character because of coherency changes. But their cost in 8th and 9th are discounted, as is the introduction of blast since I will feature blast into the cost of units with that rule.

HQ
• Malefic Lord D-
• Renegade Commander D-
• Rogue Psyker Coven D-
Troops
• Renegade Cultists D-
• Renegade Militia Squad D-
• Renegade Mutant Rabble D-
Dedicated Transport
• Chimera C+
Elites
• Renegade Command Squad D+
• Renegade Disciple Squad D+
• Renegade Enforcer D+
• Renegade Marauder Squad B+
• Renegade Ogryn Beast Handlers D-
• Renegade Ogryn Brutes D-
• Renegade Plague Ogryns D-
Fast Attack
• Armoured Sentinels C+
• Hellhounds C+
• Scout Sentinels C+
• Chaos Spawn D-
• Salamander Scout Tank C+
Flyers
• Valkyries C-
• Arvus Lighter C-
Heavy Support
• Basilisks B+
• Hydras C+
• Leman Russ Battle Tanks C+
• Leman Russ Demolishers C+
• Wyverns C+
• Armageddon Pattern Medusa C+
• Colossus Bombard C+
• Earthshaker Battery C+
• Earthshaker Carriage Battery C+
• Griffon Mortar Carrier C+
• Heavy Mortar Battery C+
• Heavy Quad Launcher Battery C+
• Malcador Defender C+
• Malcador Heavy Tank C+
• Medusa Carriage Battery C+
• Rapier Laser Destroyer C+
• Renegade Heavy Weapons Squad B+
Lords of War
• Baneblade C-
• Macharius Heavy Tank C-
• Macharius Omega C-
• Macharius Vanquisher C-
• Macharius Vulcan C-
• Minotaur Artillery Tank C-
• Valdor Tank Hunter C-

I played against RnH less than 6 times in 8th, I am very open to any input on any faction and I will respect the opinions of players that play a faction over my own even in situations I normally wouldn't when doing something like this because I figure whatever I end up writing cannot be worse than what GW has made. How about wargear, what are your opinions there? I feel like it should be noted that many wargear options are overcosted for units with a BS of 5+.

So, is the goal here to start from a reference point of the 9th points? Of the most recent set of 8th points?

I'm going to assume 9th points since I have those in front of me.

A = too strong
B = about right at current cost
C = decent abilities but overcosted/underuseful
D = fundamentally broken in some way as to be unusable

HQ
• Shadowseer C+ (costlier than the competing Farseer, access to fewer and worse powers, and no built in cast reroll)
• Troupe Master B

Harlequin Power Swords are pointless on troupe masters. Increase their cost and make them Master Crafted Power Swords and give them the same cost/stats as in Space Marines. Currently their only purpose is to allow you to take several relic weapons that are already more based on that statline anyway.

Troops
• Troupe B-

Digging in to troupes in detail: The cost per model is about right, the weapons have always been imbalanced in 8th because they're basically identical statlines so one is just always best. I would like to see the Harlequin's Caress change to be an anti-monster/anti-vehicle weapon, making it sword = antichaff, kiss = multiwound infantry, embrace = single wound infantry, caress = vehicles/monsters. You could do that by adding cost to it, and adding an ability like "on a hit roll of 5+ this weapon wounds automatically, and the wound deals D3 damage instead of 1".

On to their pistol weapons: The current Neuro Disruptor is and has been since the start of 8th been pointless next to the fusion pistol and shuriken pistol. I would say, keep it the same (both upgraded pistols 5 points) and reduce its AP to -2 but give it 2 shots instead of 1 shot.

Dedicated Transport
• Starweaver B+

Could become slightly overcosted if neuro disruptors became an actual anti-infantry weapon you'd want to take.

Elites
• Death Jester C+

Rules have needed a revamp since he was released in 8th. Now even sillier with the new morale system where it's just as hard to get someone to fail, and when they do usually like 2 models in a 10 man GEQ squad run away. Drop the "choose who dies first" ability because of its potential for gamey coherency shenanigans, make it "each casualty from this model counts as two casualties for the purposes of morale, units that suffered any casualties from this model subtract 1 from any attrition rolls they take this turn" instead.

• Solitaire B-

Would be greatly improved by giving the kiss and caress actual different roles as weapons. He almost always just attacks with the caress.

Fast Attack
• Skyweavers A

Haywire Cannons and Zephyrglaives have been an undercosted combination, and I don't think 9th changes that. Can we talk about how stupid it is that a weapon the whole unit can take by default (star bolas) is the fething GRENADE type though, so only one model can actually use it? Bump the price on haywire cannons, give them a separate (VEHICLES/OTHER MODELS) costing if it makes voidweavers unusable. Or just pair the cost increase with a cost decrease to the voidweaver chassis.

Heavy Support
• Voidweaver C

Both an underpowered and an uninspiring unit. Frustrating that harlequins have like 4 units, and 1 of those units is this utterly lazy thing that does nothing that other units don't do better. how 'bout an anti horde infantry shooting platform instead of baby's first fire prism?

Fortifications
• Webway Gate D

Like a lot of faction terrain unusable. Don't know why GW is so desperate to make sue people don't ever use stuff like the forgeshrine, webway portal, and mek shop in game, but still appears to want to try to sell them thru rules given the recent mek shoptroversy? Super double extra pointless because of the new board size. Wow, you can teleport in to your hilariously tiny deployment zone to get...well...farther away than you would have gotten if you just fuckin' walked...

 vict0988 wrote:
Keep in mind, the + or - has nothing to do with pts, just how rules interactions change with the new edition and FAQs. So something like Flayed Ones will not be able to get as many models to fight in melee and they can't snake back to a buffing character because of coherency changes. But their cost in 8th and 9th are discounted, as is the introduction of blast since I will feature blast into the cost of units with that rule.

Spoiler:

HQ
• Malefic Lord D-
• Renegade Commander D-
• Rogue Psyker Coven D-
Troops
• Renegade Cultists D-
• Renegade Militia Squad D-
• Renegade Mutant Rabble D-
Dedicated Transport
• Chimera C+
Elites
• Renegade Command Squad D+
• Renegade Disciple Squad D+
• Renegade Enforcer D+
• Renegade Marauder Squad B+
• Renegade Ogryn Beast Handlers D-
• Renegade Ogryn Brutes D-
• Renegade Plague Ogryns D-
Fast Attack
• Armoured Sentinels C+
• Hellhounds C+
• Scout Sentinels C+
• Chaos Spawn D-
• Salamander Scout Tank C+
Flyers
• Valkyries C-
• Arvus Lighter C-
Heavy Support
• Basilisks B+
• Hydras C+
• Leman Russ Battle Tanks C+
• Leman Russ Demolishers C+
• Wyverns C+
• Armageddon Pattern Medusa C+
• Colossus Bombard C+
• Earthshaker Battery C+
• Earthshaker Carriage Battery C+
• Griffon Mortar Carrier C+
• Heavy Mortar Battery C+
• Heavy Quad Launcher Battery C+
• Malcador Defender C+
• Malcador Heavy Tank C+
• Medusa Carriage Battery C+
• Rapier Laser Destroyer C+
• Renegade Heavy Weapons Squad B+
Lords of War
• Baneblade C-
• Macharius Heavy Tank C-
• Macharius Omega C-
• Macharius Vanquisher C-
• Macharius Vulcan C-
• Minotaur Artillery Tank C-
• Valdor Tank Hunter C-

I played against RnH less than 6 times in 8th, I am very open to any input on any faction and I will respect the opinions of players that play a faction over my own even in situations I normally wouldn't when doing something like this because I figure whatever I end up writing cannot be worse than what GW has made. How about wargear, what are your opinions there? I feel like it should be noted that many wargear options are overcosted for units with a BS of 5+.

The issue with Wargear is, that the good options got knee capped beause of AM, by extension the few unique things R&H had like heavy stubber, well you know how that went , in general the issue is also that the desginers seemingly forgot that bs is for most units 5+ indeed that is even worse.

I am curious though on why you think that the elites improved? on the contrary my experience is that their flimsy nature will shaft them harder. Vice versa the new attrition system lowered the usefullness of the Enforcer massively and improved atleast cultists and mutants. Also so long GW doesn't release legends /FAQ or fieldmanual updates for R&H the 4ppm milita and mutants has improved them over say their past iterations.

You are opening a can of worms.

Ask 20 different persons here on Dakka what do they think about unit X and they will tell you 20 different things.

Even just discussing if melee units should increase or decrease in cost due to the changes brought by 9th is enough to get this thread to page 15 and locked.

Any balance attempt made by consulting a community, is doomed to fail. GW may not be the best at balancing stuff, but is 10x better than whatever would be generated by this or other boards.

For this to work you need a good mathematical base to work on, not just the opinion of what is and is not too strong or weak. That being said, as someone that wrote a fan comp that worked pretty well for AOS, yes you can redesign the bad points of GW and turn them into workable points. Though if your goal is to get them accepted by the community as well, you have very little chance at that.

the_scotsman wrote:
So, is the goal here to start from a reference point of the 9th points? Of the most recent set of 8th points?

I'm going to assume 9th points since I have those in front of me.

No, there is generally no rhyme or reason to 9th pts, playtesters were somewhere between "Whaaat?", "GW works in mysterious ways" and "GW messed up but Codex balance will be fire!!1!". Some commonalities can be found between pts changes (like +5/10 pts for characters), but they generally don't make sense and do not produce lots of viable unit choices and wargear choices. Could you edit your comment or make a new one considering CA19 pts for the A-D value and the rules changes from 8th to 9th for whether it is + or -. 9th pts should be disregarded entirely for this thread, I don't find 9th pts interesting, they provide a new frontier to play around in, not an even playing field for making fun games and most of the exploration in regards to 9th pts can be made using spreadsheets to find out where GW got things wrong.

I don't think this thread is suited for discussing rules changes, this will be a sort of munitorum field guide if GW had asked around a little bit and then came up with some decent-ish numbers.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
Keep in mind, the + or - has nothing to do with pts, just how rules interactions change with the new edition and FAQs. So something like Flayed Ones will not be able to get as many models to fight in melee and they can't snake back to a buffing character because of coherency changes. But their cost in 8th and 9th are discounted, as is the introduction of blast since I will feature blast into the cost of units with that rule.

Spoiler:

HQ
• Malefic Lord D-
• Renegade Commander D-
• Rogue Psyker Coven D-
Troops
• Renegade Cultists D-
• Renegade Militia Squad D-
• Renegade Mutant Rabble D-
Dedicated Transport
• Chimera C+
Elites
• Renegade Command Squad D+
• Renegade Disciple Squad D+
• Renegade Enforcer D+
• Renegade Marauder Squad B+
• Renegade Ogryn Beast Handlers D-
• Renegade Ogryn Brutes D-
• Renegade Plague Ogryns D-
Fast Attack
• Armoured Sentinels C+
• Hellhounds C+
• Scout Sentinels C+
• Chaos Spawn D-
• Salamander Scout Tank C+
Flyers
• Valkyries C-
• Arvus Lighter C-
Heavy Support
• Basilisks B+
• Hydras C+
• Leman Russ Battle Tanks C+
• Leman Russ Demolishers C+
• Wyverns C+
• Armageddon Pattern Medusa C+
• Colossus Bombard C+
• Earthshaker Battery C+
• Earthshaker Carriage Battery C+
• Griffon Mortar Carrier C+
• Heavy Mortar Battery C+
• Heavy Quad Launcher Battery C+
• Malcador Defender C+
• Malcador Heavy Tank C+
• Medusa Carriage Battery C+
• Rapier Laser Destroyer C+
• Renegade Heavy Weapons Squad B+
Lords of War
• Baneblade C-
• Macharius Heavy Tank C-
• Macharius Omega C-
• Macharius Vanquisher C-
• Macharius Vulcan C-
• Minotaur Artillery Tank C-
• Valdor Tank Hunter C-

I played against RnH less than 6 times in 8th, I am very open to any input on any faction and I will respect the opinions of players that play a faction over my own even in situations I normally wouldn't when doing something like this because I figure whatever I end up writing cannot be worse than what GW has made. How about wargear, what are your opinions there? I feel like it should be noted that many wargear options are overcosted for units with a BS of 5+.

The issue with Wargear is, that the good options got knee capped beause of AM, by extension the few unique things R&H had like heavy stubber, well you know how that went , in general the issue is also that the desginers seemingly forgot that bs is for most units 5+ indeed that is even worse.

I am curious though on why you think that the elites improved? on the contrary my experience is that their flimsy nature will shaft them harder. Vice versa the new attrition system lowered the usefullness of the Enforcer massively and improved atleast cultists and mutants. Also so long GW doesn't release legends /FAQ or fieldmanual updates for R&H the 4ppm milita and mutants has improved them over say their past iterations.

MSU isn't punished as much by missions and you will generally only lose 1 model to morale regardless of low Leadership. Do you feel like small shooty units like Fire Warriors got worse with the new rules (ignoring pts)?

As I mentioned in my response to the_scotsman I don't think 9th pts should be considered, the +/- does not represent how pts-efficient a unit is, purely whether it gets buffed or nerfed by rules changes. Like if you went from playing 50 power level in 8th to 45 power level in 9th, which units got better (+) which units got worse (-).

 auticus wrote:
For this to work you need a good mathematical base to work on, not just the opinion of what is and is not too strong or weak. That being said, as someone that wrote a fan comp that worked pretty well for AOS, yes you can redesign the bad points of GW and turn them into workable points. Though if your goal is to get them accepted by the community as well, you have very little chance at that.

I accept that it won't be a perfect system and that it won't be widely accepted. I don't think you can make a perfect system without a couple of hundred playtests. This is the kind of low effort rework GW could have had a single guy do in a day and I think 9th pts are worse than that and making a perfect system with a solid foundation might undermine the point that 9th pts are a trashfire and whoever wrote it should be ashamed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
You are opening a can of worms.

Ask 20 different persons here on Dakka what do they think about unit X and they will tell you 20 different things.

Even just discussing if melee units should increase or decrease in cost due to the changes brought by 9th is enough to get this thread to page 15 and locked.

Any balance attempt made by consulting a community, is doomed to fail. GW may not be the best at balancing stuff, but is 10x better than whatever would be generated by this or other boards.

Thank you for your opinion. I think anyone who agrees and doesn't feel like inputting their opinions on which units generally or specifically get better or how good they were should exalt Spoletta's post and move on.

I don't think anyone will take a reasonable shot at this on here. There's a great many arm chair game designers saying how easy it is to do better than GW but they very rarely try to do anything. Even in an organised location like this it requires putting money where a mouth is and being open to criticism for something they've claimed was easy.

Dudeface wrote:
I don't think anyone will take a reasonable shot at this on here. There's a great many arm chair game designers saying how easy it is to do better than GW but they very rarely try to do anything. Even in an organised location like this it requires putting money where a mouth is and being open to criticism for something they've claimed was easy.

I agree, this is too far into 'Proposed Rules' territory for me.

It's perhaps a little early in the day. If you want to rebalance something the first job is to play the system to death so that you have a practical starting point for determining what is good and what is bad relative to the games objectives.

Part of the problem you will encounter is its not just the points cost of the unit that unbalances it, its the potential for different and stacking extra special rules that can apply depending on what Chapter/Regiment/etc you choose.

Some units are simply better when you use them with the right Chapter trait (or equivalent) than others. And again stratagems, some turn ok units into powerhouses temporarily - do you point assuming that it will be used, or not?

In my opinion, there's too many rules that units don't pay points for that can change that make this kind of balancing attempt virtually futile. And pointing them would be also exceedingly difficult.

I applaud the attempt, I certainly would not even know where to begin in such a massive and complex system as WH40K to reevaluate every unit in the game; it would be an arduous labor to complete this task for the game as a whole.

the_scotsman wrote:

Harlequin Power Swords are pointless on troupe masters. Increase their cost and make them Master Crafted Power Swords and give them the same cost/stats as in Space Marines. Currently their only purpose is to allow you to take several relic weapons that are already more based on that statline anyway.

This seems to be the case for Power Swords on all Eldar models. Can we maybe call them Phase Swords and give them rules more useful to S3 models, rather than forever shackling them to their imperial counterparts?

Hell, outside of the aforementioned artefact requirement, I don't tend to see Power Swords even on Imperial models. The extra pip of AP just doesn't seem worth it over the extra strength of axes or staves (and when the option is available, most ignore all three and jump strait to Power Fists).

A.T. wrote:
It's perhaps a little early in the day. If you want to rebalance something the first job is to play the system to death so that you have a practical starting point for determining what is good and what is bad relative to the games objectives.

Test using what pts? 9th pts? Playing the game is going to show me the general trend of what is going to be better in 9th vs 8th, but this will be corrupted by the pts because whether Kabalites in Venoms got better or worse with 9th rules, FAQ and missions, it'll be pointless if nobody wants to use Kabalites in Venoms because the pts cost went up too much too fast. I also don't have an army of testers that will use 10, 90 or 180 Grots/Boyz when I tell them to. GW had that, they didn't use it. That is why I am making a moderate ask of "rate the units in one or more factions" and not "devote 100 hours to playtesting my homebrew pts system". It's also why I will once again make a moderate ask of please just exalt an earlier negative comment about it being impossible or help out the project by inputting your opinion on rules and FAQ changes or the state of balance at the end of 8th.

All the possible positive changes one could make the rules of the game are interesting but not within the scope of this thread. On the other hand I don't think this thread is a rules suggestion, I don't have any numbers for any units and I'm not sure about what 9th favours and I would like help with what units were best in 8th.