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I have a question about the movement phase:

If an individual model in a multi-model unit that moves less then it's max move then after that another model in the unit moves can the first model move again after the second one finishes?

I have a pic describing the question here:


Can A move like in 1, B move in 2, then A move again in 3?

As long as each model doesnt move more than its movement value, you can do that.

The rules are certainly written by the design team implying the expectation is that a model will only be moved once.

The rules don't say it can't but it also doesn't explicitly gice permission to move and model then move it again either.

Simply put where is the permission to move a model twice in the same movement phase?

Yeah, I don't think you can do this.

BRB Page 206 wrote:Whenever you move a model, you can pivot it and/or change its position on the battlefield along any path, but no part of the model's base (or hull) can be moved across the bases (or hulls) of other models, nor can any part of that model (including its base) cross the edge of the battlefield.

BRB Page 207 wrote:When a unit makes a Normal Move, each model in that unit can move a distance in inches equal to or less than the Move (M) characteristic shown on its datasheet, but no model can be moved within Engagement Range of enemy models (pg 198).

You're only given permission to move, not move twice.

BCB is right, you cannot do a move like that, unless the unit can somehow explicitly move twice by ability, stratagem, etc...

What if i move A and B simultaneously ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
BCB is right, you cannot do a move like that, unless the unit can somehow explicitly move twice by ability, stratagem, etc...

I dont move a unit, i move models.

 p5freak wrote:
What if i move A and B simultaneously ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
BCB is right, you cannot do a move like that, unless the unit can somehow explicitly move twice by ability, stratagem, etc...

I dont move a unit, i move models.

Where are you given permission to move more than one model simultaneously?

This seems like some seriously artificial fringe scenario that begs the question WTF are they trying to abuse?
Instead of just moving A forward and them moving B to where A was?

 p5freak wrote:
What if i move A and B simultaneously ?

Show me where you have permission to do that.

Ice_can wrote:

Where are you given permission to move more than one model simultaneously?

Right, cant do that.

Ice_can wrote:

This seems like some seriously artificial fringe scenario that begs the question WTF are they trying to abuse?
Instead of just moving A forward and them moving B to where A was?

Imagine B has a melta, and wants to get within half range. A blocks his path, so it must move away, but also position of A is important for unit coherency, area denial, holding an objective, etc.

That seems very much like someone should have thought about it better in the preceding turn or be prepaired to shuffle the entire unit around.

However the answer rules wise is, it's not a legal movement.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
What if i move A and B simultaneously ?

Show me where you have permission to do that.

So movement trays are not allowed anymore? As that would be moving multiple models at the same time.

 Kcalehc wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
What if i move A and B simultaneously ?

Show me where you have permission to do that.

So movement trays are not allowed anymore? As that would be moving multiple models at the same time.

You're not getting the point. p5freak is trying to move models from different units simultaneously.

You have to finish the move for one unit before proceeding to another unit to move.

Two units cannot be selected to move at the same time. It must be done one after another. Therefore, you cannot move model from unit A and model from unit B at the same time.

If you can move multiple units at the same time, the whole 'no moving over/through/count as if not there/etc unless it FLYs' clause is moot because you can always say 'oh this part of the unit moves first so that this other unit can move past it, then I'm going to move my first unit back to where it was as a part of its move."Apparently I'm the one who's not getting the point.

 Kcalehc wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
What if i move A and B simultaneously ?

Show me where you have permission to do that.

So movement trays are not allowed anymore? As that would be moving multiple models at the same time.

Do you often use movement trays to move 1 model out of the way of another then move it back into possition to block your opponents models?

Also yes technically movement trays are esentially you asking your opponents permission for a house rule.

 Kcalehc wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
What if i move A and B simultaneously ?

Show me where you have permission to do that.

So movement trays are not allowed anymore? As that would be moving multiple models at the same time.

Different question, and trolling. Trays are like fast rolling dice. As long as the end result is the same as it was if you moved the models individually no problems. But OP wants to move a model twice, no permission to do so.

 p5freak wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

This seems like some seriously artificial fringe scenario that begs the question WTF are they trying to abuse?
Instead of just moving A forward and them moving B to where A was?

Imagine B has a melta, and wants to get within half range. A blocks his path, so it must move away, but also position of A is important for unit coherency, area denial, holding an objective, etc.

It's still pointless unless there is a specific rule that you can invoke to target a specific model in a unit since wounds & damages are allocated by the controlling player anyways. Even if the model with the melta is the closest model it doesn't mean that model has to be removed as casualty first.

The point is, there's no point of 'hiding' a model in the back. If you needed melta upfront, you can always have the melta up front without any increased risk to it.

 skchsan wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

This seems like some seriously artificial fringe scenario that begs the question WTF are they trying to abuse?
Instead of just moving A forward and them moving B to where A was?

Imagine B has a melta, and wants to get within half range. A blocks his path, so it must move away, but also position of A is important for unit coherency, area denial, holding an objective, etc.

It's still pointless unless there is a specific rule that you can invoke to target a specific model in a unit since wounds & damages are allocated by the controlling player anyways. Even if the model with the melta is the closest model it doesn't mean that model has to be removed as casualty first.

Imagine the enemy unit has only one model, and thats a vehicle, still pointless ?

 p5freak wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

This seems like some seriously artificial fringe scenario that begs the question WTF are they trying to abuse?
Instead of just moving A forward and them moving B to where A was?

Imagine B has a melta, and wants to get within half range. A blocks his path, so it must move away, but also position of A is important for unit coherency, area denial, holding an objective, etc.

It's still pointless unless there is a specific rule that you can invoke to target a specific model in a unit since wounds & damages are allocated by the controlling player anyways. Even if the model with the melta is the closest model it doesn't mean that model has to be removed as casualty first.

Imagine the enemy unit has only one model, and thats a vehicle, still pointless ?

Yes because that model with the melta could've been set up at the front of the unit's formation during deployment without any downside.

Being the only model left while being a vehicle still doesn't let you pick off the model with the melta.

Positioning of an individual model does matter. You don’t need to protect a melta model because of casualty removal rules, but where a model is will have an impact on which models you choose to remove as casualties due to the coherency rules with regard to removing models not in coherency.

Also, range and LOS are measured from individual models, so again, positioning matters. Imagine the melta model is positioned at the front of the unit when deployed but in your movement phase you react to reserves or other movements by the enemy and now you want that melta model on the flank of the unit or near the rear.

 skchsan wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

This seems like some seriously artificial fringe scenario that begs the question WTF are they trying to abuse?
Instead of just moving A forward and them moving B to where A was?

Imagine B has a melta, and wants to get within half range. A blocks his path, so it must move away, but also position of A is important for unit coherency, area denial, holding an objective, etc.

It's still pointless unless there is a specific rule that you can invoke to target a specific model in a unit since wounds & damages are allocated by the controlling player anyways. Even if the model with the melta is the closest model it doesn't mean that model has to be removed as casualty first.

Imagine the enemy unit has only one model, and thats a vehicle, still pointless ?

Yes because that model with the melta could've been set up at the front of the unit's formation during deployment without any downside.

Being the only model left while being a vehicle still doesn't let you pick off the model with the melta.

Imagine the vehicle arrived from strategic reserves, it wasnt there during deployment.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah, I don't think you can do this.

BRB Page 206 wrote:Whenever you move a model, you can pivot it and/or change its position on the battlefield along any path, but no part of the model's base (or hull) can be moved across the bases (or hulls) of other models, nor can any part of that model (including its base) cross the edge of the battlefield.

BRB Page 207 wrote:When a unit makes a Normal Move, each model in that unit can move a distance in inches equal to or less than the Move (M) characteristic shown on its datasheet, but no model can be moved within Engagement Range of enemy models (pg 198).

You're only given permission to move, not move twice.

As presented; nothing states the way you are trying to state it.

You select a Normal Move for your unit A(5 models); You then move Model 1(with a Mv 6) 3" at a slightly left angle. You then move model 2 3" at a slightly right angle. Next you move Model 3 6" straight forward. Next you go back to model 1 and move it up to 3" straight forward or even slightly right to maintain full unit coherency at the end of your unit's 1 allowed Normal move. Model 2 Also moves up to 3" straight or possibly slightly left for the same reasons. Models 4 and 5 can move however they want, as long as they end in coherencey.

The only rules for Movement that we have is that the Unit all moves near the same time, can only move once, and that the models must all end their move in coherency.

So, in summation: First Quote is "Whenever you move a Model" which does note proclaim "Only move once"; and second only restricts each model's movement to within their Mv characteristic. You are given permission to move your models within specified constraints, you do not need permission to finalize each model's movements before moving on to the next model in the unit(those specifics are given for Movement at the unit level: i.e. move unit A fully before moving Unit B).

The rules are very explicit about the fact it's the unit that's only allowed to move once. The individual models can be moved however many times you want so long as the path is shorter then the move characteristic.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah, I don't think you can do this.

BRB Page 206 wrote:Whenever you move a model, you can pivot it and/or change its position on the battlefield along any path, but no part of the model's base (or hull) can be moved across the bases (or hulls) of other models, nor can any part of that model (including its base) cross the edge of the battlefield.

BRB Page 207 wrote:When a unit makes a Normal Move, each model in that unit can move a distance in inches equal to or less than the Move (M) characteristic shown on its datasheet, but no model can be moved within Engagement Range of enemy models (pg 198).

You're only given permission to move, not move twice.

As presented; nothing states the way you are trying to state it.

You select a Normal Move for your unit A(5 models); You then move Model 1(with a Mv 6) 3" at a slightly left angle. You then move model 2 3" at a slightly right angle. Next you move Model 3 6" straight forward. Next you go back to model 1 and move it up to 3" straight forward or even slightly right to maintain full unit coherency at the end of your unit's 1 allowed Normal move. Model 2 Also moves up to 3" straight or possibly slightly left for the same reasons. Models 4 and 5 can move however they want, as long as they end in coherencey.

The only rules for Movement that we have is that the Unit all moves near the same time, can only move once, and that the models must all end their move in coherency.

So, in summation: First Quote is "Whenever you move a Model" which does note proclaim "Only move once"; and second only restricts each model's movement to within their Mv characteristic. You are given permission to move your models within specified constraints, you do not need permission to finalize each model's movements before moving on to the next model in the unit(those specifics are given for Movement at the unit level: i.e. move unit A fully before moving Unit B).

each model in that unit can move a distance in inches equal to or less than the Move (M) characteristic

A distance, not a combination of distances, which is how it would have to be worded to work as you claim.

There is no permission to move a model more than once.


On a personal note though, I don't actually care if my opponent moves his model 15 times as long as he doesn't exceed its movement value in distance from its starting point.

I also don't see anyone trying to enforce an opponent from moving his model and then changing its position to get it where he wants it.

"Ohh sorry bob, you picked your finger up, he's gotta stay right there"

There's also no restriction to once.

You select the unit, while the unit is selected you can select any of it's models. A model that has already moved is "any of it's models". It just has to end in coherency (Something that can force a model to move twice) and not go beyond it's full MV.

Breton wrote:
There's also no restriction to once.

You select the unit, while the unit is selected you can select any of it's models. A model that has already moved is "any of it's models". It just has to end in coherency (Something that can force a model to move twice) and not go beyond it's full MV.

Having to have the unit end in coherency does not force a model to move twice as there is no permission to move a model twice. If the model would need to move twice to have the unit be in coherency at the end of the unit's movement, you either need to rethink where you move (or don't move) that model the first time, as after all the models have moved once you have to be in coherency.

So the sequence is:
1. Select one eligible unit to move, that unit can then perform one of the types of movement (in this case a normal move)
2. Those models may move a distance equal to or less than their respective Move characteristic
3. Select another unit to move
4. Rinse and repeat until all units have moved.

The explicit permission is given for a model to move as soon as its unit is selected. That permission is ONLY removed:
A. When a new unit is selected to move
B. When the model reaches its max movement distance

To be clear, a models permission to move is not removed once it has moved, only once the whole unit is done moving, or it has reached its maximum movement distance. So in this case, there would have to be verbiage to remove its permission to move again, which there isn’t.

Another argument in favor of the OP’s scenario that I saw is, unlike many things that happen sequentially (pick one unit, move the models, pick the next unit, etc.), moving models in a unit seems to happen simultaneously. So just switching places would be legal too.

Edit: Also, a combination of distances is a distance. Just like how any distance is a combination of shorter distances. If that was the logic, you wouldn’t be able to move models in non-straight lines. And that’s sort of silly.

 doctortom wrote:

Breton wrote:
There's also no restriction to once.

You select the unit, while the unit is selected you can select any of it's models. A model that has already moved is "any of it's models". It just has to end in coherency (Something that can force a model to move twice) and not go beyond it's full MV.

Having to have the unit end in coherency does not force a model to move twice as there is no permission to move a model twice. If the model would need to move twice to have the unit be in coherency at the end of the unit's movement, you either need to rethink where you move (or don't move) that model the first time, as after all the models have moved once you have to be in coherency.

Cant measure coherency until after it's moved. You have just reduced every multi-model unit's MV characteristic to it's coherency distance. 1 Inch in most cases. You move your unit, check coherency, one model is 1.1" away, you have no permission to move it back 0.1". You're not allowed to move the entire unit back to where it started. You can't remove the incoherent model because the rules says you can't make the move, let alone get to the phase where incoherent models are removed. The only legal move now is to move the rear (relative to the direction being moved) models 1", then the next layer, then the next and so on until all models have moved 1 inch to remain in unit coherency at all times.

Breton wrote:
Cant measure coherency until after it's moved.

Where'd you get that idea? Especially when Measuring Distances has that nice summary bullet point "Can measure distances whenever you want." and the same sentence is in the paragraph text.

At worst, you get a situation where you may have to resort to measuring distances on the table to figure out where models have to be moved to. But, more practically, remember that the Unit Coherency rules say:
"Remember that a unit must finish any type of move in unit coherency (pg 4)� If this is impossible, then that move cannot be made� "
---
The simple fact of the matter is that the movement phase rules don't actually say -how- each model in a unit moves when you're told to follow the instructions to move each of the models.

Do you move them one after the other? Can they all move at the same time? Can you start moving a model, then move another model, then continue moving the first one? While there are answers that have been true for previous editions, at least the rules PDF doesn't say specifically.
--
As far as movement trays vs. one-at-a-time movement goes, if there aren't any intervening obstacles, then it doesn't make any difference. "I'm going to move all of the models in this unit 5" that way" has the same outcome if you pick up each model and move it five inches at one at a time; or you pick the entire unit up (because it's on a tray) and move the tray five inches over.

If there's something in the way, then you basically have to give up using the movement tray, because the movement rules require you to explain what each of the models are doing (so it can be measured) and your movement tray probably can't flex to bend around the obstacle.

It is an interesting point that you don't appear to be prohibited from returning to a model during a units moment unless that model has moved its full move distance. This allows for making small adjustments during/at the end of a move that where technically prohibited. It also permits edge case scenarios where you might want to shuffle a guy out of the way and then back into position. It's hard to think of good examples, but I'm sure it can happen. Maybe a melta wanting to go from the front of a unit to the back, and the intervening models want back in place to hold an objective.

None of this overides the one unit at a time rule. You cannot take a line of Hormagants with a Tyrant behind them, move the middle Hormagants to make path, move the Tyrant through the hole, then move the Hormagants back to sesl the gap.

babelfish wrote:
It is an interesting point that you don't appear to be prohibited from returning to a model during a units moment unless that model has moved its full move distance. This allows for making small adjustments during/at the end of a move that where technically prohibited. It also permits edge case scenarios where you might want to shuffle a guy out of the way and then back into position. It's hard to think of good examples, but I'm sure it can happen. Maybe a melta wanting to go from the front of a unit to the back, and the intervening models want back in place to hold an objective.

None of this overides the one unit at a time rule. You cannot take a line of Hormagants with a Tyrant behind them, move the middle Hormagants to make path, move the Tyrant through the hole, then move the Hormagants back to sesl the gap.

What you just said is all completely correct. The way I see it is: say a unit is in some good terrain, and a model with a melta gun is on the left side of the unit and destroys a tank. During the subsequent turn another tank moves to within 12” of the right side of that unit but out of range of the melta equipped model. If models in his own unit prevents him from moving to within range of that tank, they can simply be moved for the melta equipped model to move, and then moved back. Replace melta with fusion for those who play xenos. gross.

This plus side of this is that it jives with real life when someone can ask someone else to move the hell out of the way so they can shoot. These rules aren’t always consistent with real life, but it’s nice when they are.