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I had a situation come up in a game the other day. There was a Doomsday Arc shooting at a unit of 6 Scarabs. For those who don't know, it has a blast weapon and two rapid fire weapons. The unit was positioned such that losing 1 Scarab would result in the DDA no longer being within 12" of the unit (thus being outside of rapid fire range)

The rules specify that each weapon system is resolved one at a time.

If the blast is resolved first and kills the scarab closest, does the DDA get double shots from rapid fire?

If the rapid fire weapon is resolved first and kills a scarab, does the DDA get a minimum number of 3 attacks from blast?

From my reading of the rules it seams the answer is no to both of them, but it seems to be a departure to how 8th did things that would catch many people unaware. Am I missing something obvious?

Battle Primer, page 15 over to 16... Note that so long as at least one model in the target unit was visible to the shooting model and in range of its weapon when that unit was selected as the target, that weapon’s attacks are always made against the target unit, even if no models in the target unit remain visible to or in range of it when you come to resolve them (this can happen because of models being destroyed and removed from the battlefield as the result of resolving the shots with other weapons in the shooting model’s unit first).

You only measure once and casualties don’t affect the ranges measured whilst a unit is resolving its attacks.

Could you elaborate further please? That quote seems to be saying that you can continue to resolve attacks with a declared weapon even if models have been moved outside of the natural range of the weapon. I don't think it supports what you appear to be implying.

Why do you say moved outside ? You dont move models during a shooting attack.

Only one scarab base needs to be in range, and visible for the gauss flayers, and the whole unit can be wiped out by them, even if all other models are out of range, and/or not visible. This has been true since the beginning of 8th edition, and its still true in 9th.

 p5freak wrote:
Why do you say moved outside ? You dont move models during a shooting attack.

Only one scarab base needs to be in range, and visible for the gauss flayers, and the whole unit can be wiped out by them, even if all other models are out of range, and/or not visible. This has been true since the beginning of 8th edition, and its still true in 9th.

Sorry, I may not have been clear. That's not the situation I was talking about.

The situation is where when the targets are declared, both the blast weapon and flayers are eligible for their respective bonuses (min 3 shots and double shots respectively), however if a model dies, the unit would be under the numbers required for the blast bonus, and outside of the 12" rapid fire band (flayers being 24").

My question is when is it determined that the weapon is eligible for the blast / rapid fire bonuses?

You measure once before any shots are fired. The quote I posted says that ranges don’t change due to casualties within one unit’s round of shooting. It does say what I think it says. ;-)

None of this has changed from 8th, though the wording may have the practical application is the same.

Regarding Blast, that cares for how many models you’re shooting at, so if your RF guns whittle the unit down below 10 you don’t get the Blast bonus. So fire your Blast first and then RF, knowing the ranges can’t change due to casualty removal.

So if 5 plasma devastators shoot at 6 primaries, you need to resolve them one at a time?

Sorry, I feel like I'm being dense, but I can't see in the part in the rule where it says "that ranges don’t change due to casualties within one unit’s round of shooting". I can see that it says "that weapon’s attacks are always made against the target unit, even if no models in the target unit remain visible to or in range of it when you come to resolve them", but that's a very different thing than what you have said about rapid fire.

It doesnt matter if a unit is outside of RF range once casualties are removed. It only matters when you measure ranges, which is before rolling any dice. You dont go back and halve the number of shots, when the RF gun shoots, because the unit is now out of RF range, because of casualties.

My reading is that blast weapons shooting at a target will shoot against the initial number of enemy models.

"If a blast weapon TARGETS a unit that has between 6 and 10 models, it always makes a minimum of 3 attacks,"

The blast rule is triggered during targeting, which must be done for all weapons before the single weapon gets to shoot.

On the contrary, rapid fire will lose attacks if the enemy gets out of half range.

"When a model SHOOTS a rapid fire weapon, double the number of attacks it makes if its target is within half the weapon's range."

Shooting is resolved one weapon at a time.

That's my reading.

p5freak, could you elaborate further with some rules please? When you measure the range, it is done in the "select targets" section, is this where you are claiming you determine the weapons bonuses? (Rapid fire or blast). If so, do you agree or disagree with Johnny's assessment earlier that it's possible for the Doomsday Arc to rapid fire against a unit and deny itself the benefit of the blast rule?

the point is, range number of models is done "per unit" once at the beginning

while everything else after is done per weapon/model one by one, but you don't check range/numbers again after one weapon is resolved until the next unit starts shooting

so it does not matter if it is obvoius that the target is out of 12" or has now less than 6/11 models while you roll for hits/wounds, as you don't check for it (and without checking you cannot know)

A DDA shooting at a unit of 6 scarabs will have at least 3 attacks, and will have double attacks when in RF range for its gauss flayers, because those are checked when targeting and selecting targets. It doesnt matter which gun shoots first, you dont deny yourself double RF fire or at least 3 attacks, if one gun kills some scarabs first.

JakeSiren wrote:
p5freak, could you elaborate further with some rules please? When you measure the range, it is done in the "select targets" section, is this where you are claiming you determine the weapons bonuses? (Rapid fire or blast). If so, do you agree or disagree with Johnny's assessment earlier that it's possible for the Doomsday Arc to rapid fire against a unit and deny itself the benefit of the blast rule?

Page 217 of the BRB explains in full that weapons that legally target a unit always get to fire, regardless of casualties.

You determine what weapons and what their characteristics are in the Select Target step. Once that is done, they can't change due to enemy models being removed.

 p5freak wrote:
A DDA shooting at a unit of 6 scarabs will have at least 3 attacks, and will have double attacks when in RF range for its gauss flayers, because those are checked when targeting and selecting targets. It doesnt matter which gun shoots first, you dont deny yourself double RF fire or at least 3 attacks, if one gun kills some scarabs first.

So you disagree with Johnny's assessment. Out of interest can you show how this supported in the rules?

 kodos wrote:
the point is, range number of models is done "per unit" once at the beginning

while everything else after is done per weapon/model one by one, but you don't check range/numbers again after one weapon is resolved until the next unit starts shooting

so it does not matter if it is obvoius that the target is out of 12" or has now less than 6/11 models while you roll for hits/wounds, as you don't check for it (and without checking you cannot know)

That sounds fair, but could you should how this is supported in the rules?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
p5freak, could you elaborate further with some rules please? When you measure the range, it is done in the "select targets" section, is this where you are claiming you determine the weapons bonuses? (Rapid fire or blast). If so, do you agree or disagree with Johnny's assessment earlier that it's possible for the Doomsday Arc to rapid fire against a unit and deny itself the benefit of the blast rule?

Page 217 of the BRB explains in full that weapons that legally target a unit always get to fire, regardless of casualties.

You determine what weapons and what their characteristics are in the Select Target step. Once that is done, they can't change due to enemy models being removed.

I understand that weapons always get to fire regardless of casualties, but that's not my question. It's regarding when you check for and apply the eligibility of the bonus attacks provided by rapid fire and blast.

When you say "what their characteristics are", are you talking about the number of attacks they produce?


As a thought, for the random number of shots by the blast weapon, the "modifying characteristics" section indicates that you would determine it individually when required, which is the "number of attacks" part in the shooting phase no? Wouldn't this then also be where you apply any other modifiers such as blast or rapid fire?

For a unit with 2 rapid fire weapons and one blast weapon shooting at a unit with more than 11 models and within half the range or the rapid fire weapons the sequence is:

- Select unit that is shooting

- Select target unit(s) – in this case one target unit is selected.

- Declare which weapons will target the unit before resolving attacks (all 3 weapons are declared to target the same unit in this case). During this step you also declare which profile you are using if any of the weapons have multiple profiles (e.g. Combi-weapon profile, or type of missile etc.) At this point the Blast weapon rule kicks in:

Core Rules Page 17:

If a Blast weapon targets a unit that has between 6 and 10 models…

If a Blast weapon targets a unit that has 11 or more models…

So the number of models in the target unit is determined before resolving any of the attacks. As the target unit has more than 11 models, the blast weapon will get maximum attacks.

- Determine visibility and range.

Core Rules Page 15:

In order to target an enemy unit, at least one model in that unit must be within range … and visible to the shooting model… If there are no eligible targets for a weapon then that weapon cannot shoot.

Range is determined at this point, so this is when you determine if a target is within half range for Rapid Fire.

- Resolve attacks.
Resolve attacks from all weapons with the same characteristics before moving on to another weapon. The specifics for how to resolve the attacks are on page 18 of the Core Rules. The number of shots and rapid fire range and the number of models in the target unit for blast weapons are determined before reaching the steps for resolving the attacks and would not be reassessed during this process.

Assh, that seems reasonable.

Regarding the blast weaponry, if you are resolving the blast rule at this point, and you are targeting a unit of 6-10 models, would you be required to roll the D6 before proceeding?

JakeSiren wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
A DDA shooting at a unit of 6 scarabs will have at least 3 attacks, and will have double attacks when in RF range for its gauss flayers, because those are checked when targeting and selecting targets. It doesnt matter which gun shoots first, you dont deny yourself double RF fire or at least 3 attacks, if one gun kills some scarabs first.

So you disagree with Johnny's assessment. Out of interest can you show how this supported in the rules?

p5freak is agreeing with Johnny, he's just stating the breakdown of the checking stage. Once you check the guns and confirm rapid fire range, It doesn't matter if killing models means the unit is no longer in rapid fire range. you've already checked it and confirmed that they are eligible for rapid fire, there is no secondary check sequence that overrides the initial confirmation.

 Tristanleo wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
A DDA shooting at a unit of 6 scarabs will have at least 3 attacks, and will have double attacks when in RF range for its gauss flayers, because those are checked when targeting and selecting targets. It doesnt matter which gun shoots first, you dont deny yourself double RF fire or at least 3 attacks, if one gun kills some scarabs first.

So you disagree with Johnny's assessment. Out of interest can you show how this supported in the rules?

p5freak is agreeing with Johnny, he's just stating the breakdown of the checking stage. Once you check the guns and confirm rapid fire range, It doesn't matter if killing models means the unit is no longer in rapid fire range. you've already checked it and confirmed that they are eligible for rapid fire, there is no secondary check sequence that overrides the initial confirmation.

Ah, I see the issue. Johnny edited his response and I had seen the original version. I didn't realize that he had edited his post. You can likely guess the gist of the original content from Spoletta's response to Johnny. Hence is why I said they had differing assessments.

Spoletta wrote:
So if 5 plasma devastators shoot at 6 primaries, you need to resolve them one at a time?

JakeSiren wrote:
Assh, that seems reasonable.

Regarding the blast weaponry, if you are resolving the blast rule at this point, and you are targeting a unit of 6-10 models, would you be required to roll the D6 before proceeding?

The Core Rules don’t specify when to determine the random number of attacks. In order for the rules to function the number of attacks a weapon makes needs to be determined before step 1 of the Making Attacks sequence (page 18).

Page 15 of the Core Rules says:
“If any of these weapons has more than one profile that you must choose between, you must also declare which profile is being used”.
Determining the random number of attacks isn’t the same as choosing between profiles, so I don’t think this applies here.

Unless there is a rule I’ve missed, or an FAQ to say otherwise, I would roll to determine the number of attacks immediately prior to step one of the Making Attacks sequence, as this seems to me the most user friendly time to roll the dice, and doesn’t change the outcome doing it here as opposed to any earlier time in the sequence of events after selecting a weapon and it’s target.

Technically this is when I’d determine the number of shots for a blast weapon targeting a unit of 11+ models as well as for a unit of 6-10 models. In both cases though, the number of models in the target unit has been determined in the “declare target” step in the sequence I posted, so that is the number you consult to determine if you don’t roll the dice at all and get max shots (11+ models), or if it’s minimum 3 shots (6-10 models).