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I think it was because for a while it seemed like everyone and their dog wanted true/better scaled models. Now seeing the primaris range I'm inclined to agree as they look so much better than the old firstborn marines IMHO.

 Irkjoe wrote:
Because whoever is making these decisions doesn't care for the traditional style of 40k. They think that a more generic scifi, disney, warhammer heroes will appeal to a broader range of people and that is worth losing older players that like the original aesthetic. And they're probably right.

To pretend that space marines ever weren't really "generic scifi" is disingenuous.

It's the extra gubbins that made them kinda/sorta unique. We're starting to see those materialize on the Primaris.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Irkjoe wrote:
Because whoever is making these decisions doesn't care for the traditional style of 40k. They think that a more generic scifi, disney, warhammer heroes will appeal to a broader range of people and that is worth losing older players that like the original aesthetic. And they're probably right.

To pretend that space marines ever weren't really "generic scifi" is disingenuous.

It's the extra gubbins that made them kinda/sorta unique. We're starting to see those materialize on the Primaris.

Yeah,, intercessors are basically space marines without the heavy/special weapons.

So where is the big distinction between "other generic sci-fi" and "40k" hiding then? is it in the Lascannon? The Plasma Gun? The Rocket Launcher? The Heavy Bolter? Never heard of any other sci fi settings that had weapons like those, no sir.../s

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

But this whole "getting people to rebuy their armies" is nonsense, because you can still use your old armies. Hell, if people are having issues with "they've forcing us to rebuy our armies!!", do you share that same problem with the new Chaos Marines? The new Sisters? If GW make another regiment of guardsmen beyond Cadians, will that be the same?

No, because they don't control your purchasing.

But this is just a silly argument. Nobody can ever force you to buy anything. Those example aren't the same because if you have old sisters squads you can continue to use them as the new sisters or CSM squads (not that anybody uses CSM). You can't use tacs as intercessors.

But the idea that GW aren't trying to get people to rebuy their armies is absurd. That is 100% what the Primaris Project is all about. The entire reason Primaris exist is to get Space Marine players to rebuy their armies with new models that they can't use the old ones as stand-ins for. It's also the reason that Primaris generally and in particular Intercessors have been aggressively pointed relative to tacs: they want you to buy intercessors and use those, not to use tacs. There is no reasonable argument that 15 points for a tac and 20 for an intercessor is a reasonable pointing. Everyone knows that the intercessor gets a better points valuation in order to encourage people to make the switch. Scouts are going to elites in the new codex (after taking a big points nerf in CA2020) for exactly the same reason.

Primaris is the future. Old marines will go away as soon as GW can get away with it. Everybody knows these facts. It's not some big coincidence that GW hasn't released oldmarine kits in ages.

What in the Primaris range can't you use old ones as stand-ins for or easily convert?

Literally everything. I mean you can use smurfs (real smurfs) as stand-in for space marines if you want to; anything can be proxied for anything. But the new primaris kits are specifically made to be different enough from oldmarine equivalents that you can't have one "counts as" for the other except in garagehammer games where you're also using a toilet roll as a ruin and a back to the future toy car as a repulsor.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

But this whole "getting people to rebuy their armies" is nonsense, because you can still use your old armies. Hell, if people are having issues with "they've forcing us to rebuy our armies!!", do you share that same problem with the new Chaos Marines? The new Sisters? If GW make another regiment of guardsmen beyond Cadians, will that be the same?

No, because they don't control your purchasing.

But this is just a silly argument. Nobody can ever force you to buy anything. But the idea that GW aren't trying to get people to rebuy their armies is absurd. That is 100% what the Primaris Project is all about. The entire reason Primaris exist is to get Space Marine players to rebuy their armies with new models that they can't use the old ones as stand-ins for. It's also the reason that Primaris generally and in particular Intercessors have been aggressively pointed relative to tacs: they want you to buy intercessors and use those, not to use tacs. There is no reasonable argument that 15 points for a tac and 20 for an intercessor is a reasonable pointing. Everyone knows that the intercessor gets a better points valuation in order to encourage people to make the switch. Scouts are going to elites in the new codex (after taking a big points nerf in CA2020) for exactly the same reason.

Primaris is the future. Old marines will go away as soon as GW can get away with it. Everybody knows these facts. It's not some big coincidence that GW hasn't released oldmarine kits in ages.

Oh it's for sure a secondary goal. That is absolutely 100% why every primaris unit isn't a direct WYSIWYG analogue to an oldmarine unit. It's why you have random secondary weapon systems on the new dreadnought, why you have scouts split up into four kits with slightly unique wargear options tossed in here or there, and why you have these weird tweaks that almost look like existing marine units but aren't quite like the invictus and inceptors.

they DEFINITELy want to get as much of the primaris range out into the world before they start releasing the units that are perfect analogues to oldmarine units. I'm also wiling to bet there's some sneakily hiding away in full kits - like the Assault Intercessors box will finally come with Jump Packs in it to allow people to 1-for-1 replace their assault marines finally.

The primary goal of primaris is still "make Marines a better entry point to the hobby than they were. Make them cheaper to get to 2k without decreasing the price of the kits (check), make them impossible to feth up loadout wise (check) and make them a stronger, more unified brand by removing the disparate elements that did not have good Brand Recognition like scout pattern armor (check)."

Yeah,, intercessors are basically space marines without the heavy/special weapons.

So where is the big distinction between "other generic sci-fi" and "40k" hiding then? is it in the Lascannon? The Plasma Gun? The Rocket Launcher? The Heavy Bolter? Never heard of any other sci fi settings that had weapons like those, no sir.../s

I hear this all the time and I kind of chuckle at it. It's like when someone makes fun of the original 80's/90's American action movie stars like Arnold and Sly Stalone for "being such cliches" while completely missing the fact that they were so good at what they did that they are the REASON those things became so cliche to begin with. lol

For marines - you can arguably see some Star Wars/Storm Trooper influence in their helmets, but after that, most of the armor design is coming from traditional suits of plate mail armor. This is, in part where the "knights in space" thing comes from. There are quite a few sci-fi armor designs that came along after the Space Marines that borrowed from/expanded on that design (Star Craft is a good example), and I think, because of this, people look back and go - oh yeah - Space Marines - they're generic sci-fi, but that's not really accurate IMO.


Admittedly, if you look at more modern sci-fi, the trend has been towards complexity. Lots of detail, lots of fiddly bits, but I don't think a lot of those styles will stand the text of time, and I also don't think they would work as well for miniatures.


EDIT:
There was even a thread on Dakka a few years ago where someone accused GW of stealing the Starcraft designs for both the Zerg and the Marines. The person either didn't realize Starcraft came WAAAAYYYYYYY after 40k, or just didn't want to admit it, but yeah - it's surprisingly common for people to hold 40k up as "generic" scifi when it often really isn't.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Irkjoe wrote:
Because whoever is making these decisions doesn't care for the traditional style of 40k. They think that a more generic scifi, disney, warhammer heroes will appeal to a broader range of people and that is worth losing older players that like the original aesthetic. And they're probably right.

To pretend that space marines ever weren't really "generic scifi" is disingenuous.

Chainsword wielding, brain eating, space-Nazis-as-the-GOOD-guys, doesn't strike me as "generic sci-fi".

You want generic sci-fi, look no further than the Repulsor.

 Kanluwen wrote:
What in the Primaris range can't you use old ones as stand-ins for or easily convert?

-Inceptors/Infiltrators would be tough to differentiate from Intercessors counts-as
-Intercessors with stalker/assault
-Inceptors
-Suppressors
-Spacemario Kart
-Space marine turret thingies (both the big one and the small one)
-Repulsor Executioner
-Las-fusil eliminators
-Flamer Aggressors


Typically, in each kit they make sure there's at least one non-analogue to the old marine line.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Irkjoe wrote:
Because whoever is making these decisions doesn't care for the traditional style of 40k. They think that a more generic scifi, disney, warhammer heroes will appeal to a broader range of people and that is worth losing older players that like the original aesthetic. And they're probably right.

To pretend that space marines ever weren't really "generic scifi" is disingenuous.

Chainsword wielding, brain eating, space-Nazis-as-the-GOOD-guys, doesn't strike me as "generic sci-fi".

You want generic sci-fi, look no further than the Repulsor.

Yeah, not like the totally unique and original Land Raider that we definitely didn't wholly copy/paste from judge dredd no sirree

My rambling thoughts...

I generally play the bad guys - CSMs and Dark Eldar. I've not had regular marines till just now, having picked up the Indomitus box.

In isolation, I love the Primaris sculpts. The new Judiciar in particular is glorious. But when compared to other factions models they look too big. Too big to be human, even enhanced superhumans. It feels slightly off to me. (I'm not a big fan of Roboute / Abaddon being so huge either) But... When you have stuff in the lore about them being slightly weird and distrusted by the old marines, maybe that fits..?

Certainly, not having had old marines previously, I don't really feel like I miss them by having got Primaris. There are a few things that do bug me though.

I personally find Terminators to be more iconic than the tactical marines, and I'm feeling their absence in the new Marine range. Also - the vehicles. The Rhino, Predator and Land Raider are really iconic to me. It kind of makes sense that the new big boys don't fit in them, but I don't like it. The new vehicles for the Primaris just don't have the same look and feel, and appeal, to me. I don't like that they all hover. I don't like this weird fixation on stubbers all of a sudden - stubbers, to me, are a weedier weapon for Guard who can't lug a bolter around.

I suppose as well, all the Primaris stuff is just a bit too good. As an 80s child and a reformed Goth, I rather liked the grimdark setting where humanity was doomed, and was staving off the inevitable with dwindling supplies of misunderstood relics from a bygone age. New boys with shiny new weapons and vehicles merrily kicking arse in all directions feels like quite a shift to me.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Irkjoe wrote:
Because whoever is making these decisions doesn't care for the traditional style of 40k. They think that a more generic scifi, disney, warhammer heroes will appeal to a broader range of people and that is worth losing older players that like the original aesthetic. And they're probably right.

To pretend that space marines ever weren't really "generic scifi" is disingenuous.

Chainsword wielding, brain eating, space-Nazis-as-the-GOOD-guys, doesn't strike me as "generic sci-fi".

You want generic sci-fi, look no further than the Repulsor.

Yeah, not like the totally unique and original Land Raider that we definitely didn't wholly copy/paste from judge dredd no sirree

Show me the Dredd artwork. I know they had something called a Land Raider, but iirc it didn't look the same at all.

the_scotsman wrote:


Oh it's for sure a secondary goal. That is absolutely 100% why every primaris unit isn't a direct WYSIWYG analogue to an oldmarine unit. It's why you have random secondary weapon systems on the new dreadnought, why you have scouts split up into four kits with slightly unique wargear options tossed in here or there, and why you have these weird tweaks that almost look like existing marine units but aren't quite like the invictus and inceptors.

they DEFINITELy want to get as much of the primaris range out into the world before they start releasing the units that are perfect analogues to oldmarine units. I'm also wiling to bet there's some sneakily hiding away in full kits - like the Assault Intercessors box will finally come with Jump Packs in it to allow people to 1-for-1 replace their assault marines finally.

The primary goal of primaris is still "make Marines a better entry point to the hobby than they were. Make them cheaper to get to 2k without decreasing the price of the kits (check), make them impossible to feth up loadout wise (check) and make them a stronger, more unified brand by removing the disparate elements that did not have good Brand Recognition like scout pattern armor (check)."

All those things could have been done without Primaris. They could have just done what they do with every other army, and update the basic rules for models to work the way they think they should.

I agree that there's a clear attempt to give people a good beginner faction that they can't screw up that is just better than everyone else (not necessarily competitively, but on a model by model basis) and therefore good for noobs to play with, that feel like generic sci-fi heroes. But there was no reason to do that as a new unit range that replaced the entire army. The reason Primaris are Primaris and not just Updated Marines is to get people rebuying their armies.

Tycho wrote:

Yeah,, intercessors are basically space marines without the heavy/special weapons.

So where is the big distinction between "other generic sci-fi" and "40k" hiding then? is it in the Lascannon? The Plasma Gun? The Rocket Launcher? The Heavy Bolter? Never heard of any other sci fi settings that had weapons like those, no sir.../s

I hear this all the time and I kind of chuckle at it. It's like when someone makes fun of the original 80's/90's American action movie stars like Arnold and Sly Stalone for "being such cliches" while completely missing the fact that they were so good at what they did that they are the REASON those things became so cliche to begin with. lol

For marines - you can arguably see some Star Wars/Storm Trooper influence in their helmets, but after that, most of the armor design is coming from traditional suits of plate mail armor. This is, in part where the "knights in space" thing comes from. There are quite a few sci-fi armor designs that came along after the Space Marines that borrowed from/expanded on that design (Star Craft is a good example), and I think, because of this, people look back and go - oh yeah - Space Marines - they're generic sci-fi, but that's not really accurate IMO.


Admittedly, if you look at more modern sci-fi, the trend has been towards complexity. Lots of detail, lots of fiddly bits, but I don't think a lot of those styles will stand the text of time, and I also don't think they would work as well for miniatures.


EDIT:
There was even a thread on Dakka a few years ago where someone accused GW of stealing the Starcraft designs for both the Zerg and the Marines. The person either didn't realize Starcraft came WAAAAYYYYYYY after 40k, or just didn't want to admit it, but yeah - it's surprisingly common for people to hold 40k up as "generic" scifi when it often really isn't.

But intercessor armor is practically identical. If anything, it's less fiddly, since you don't have the older armor marks scattered in there and they've swapped some elements like the stormtrooper looking mouth to the more medieval knight looking smooth face helmet.

My question was: Where in the distinction between Oldmarine Thing (Tactical Marine) and Newmarine thing (intercessor) was the "original 40k-ness" swapped for "generic sci-fi ness"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Oh it's for sure a secondary goal. That is absolutely 100% why every primaris unit isn't a direct WYSIWYG analogue to an oldmarine unit. It's why you have random secondary weapon systems on the new dreadnought, why you have scouts split up into four kits with slightly unique wargear options tossed in here or there, and why you have these weird tweaks that almost look like existing marine units but aren't quite like the invictus and inceptors.

they DEFINITELy want to get as much of the primaris range out into the world before they start releasing the units that are perfect analogues to oldmarine units. I'm also wiling to bet there's some sneakily hiding away in full kits - like the Assault Intercessors box will finally come with Jump Packs in it to allow people to 1-for-1 replace their assault marines finally.

The primary goal of primaris is still "make Marines a better entry point to the hobby than they were. Make them cheaper to get to 2k without decreasing the price of the kits (check), make them impossible to feth up loadout wise (check) and make them a stronger, more unified brand by removing the disparate elements that did not have good Brand Recognition like scout pattern armor (check)."

All those things could have been done without Primaris. They could have just done what they do with every other army, and update the basic rules for models to work the way they think they should.

I agree that there's a clear attempt to give people a good beginner faction that they can't screw up that is just better than everyone else (not necessarily competitively, but on a model by model basis) and therefore good for noobs to play with, that feel like generic sci-fi heroes. But there was no reason to do that as a new unit range that replaced the entire army. The reason Primaris are Primaris and not just Updated Marines is to get people rebuying their armies.

Yes.

Agreed. I am agreeing with you. You see the part where I used all the words like "Absolutely 100%' and "Definitely" in my reply?

Yeah, the genericness of primaris is more in their fixed loadouts and the blandness of their fluff, not in the designs themselves.

Space marines are pretty bland and generic too, what gives them their fluff is all the special chapter stuff thrown on top of the normal generic design. Primaris lack that stuff because they are designed to be easily shoe-horned into every space marine faction. No need for special Space Wolf / Dark Angel / Blood Angel / etc kits, they're designed without any of the special stuff that makes the various factions distinctive.

@ Scotsman: This? https://2warpstoneptune.com/2014/03/18/matchboxs-adventure-2000-raider-command-1977/

Lol, no.

Everyone who wants to play space Marines either already has the army or could get one very cheaply second-hand. Games workshop was essentially a victim of their own success with how prolific space Marines were.

In the situation where tactical marines are removed entirely from the marine range and the codices going forward, then tacticals could be used as stand ins for Intercessors.

One would just have to keep things consistant; all Intercessors in the army are tactical models that meet basic wsywig - a bolt rifle, or a bolt pistol & chainsword. It would look odd(possibly confusing) if one Int-squad was primaris models and another was tactical models.

Probably get away with Scouts as Reavers if sticking to bolt-pistols and combat knives.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Everyone who wants to play space Marines either already has the army or could get one very cheaply second-hand. Games workshop was essentially a victim of their own success with how prolific space Marines were.

I believe this too. But I also believe they could have simply upscaled the models themselves in the way that they did the Chaos Marines, and people would have gone for those as well. GW overdid it with pumping all the stats, etc. Imo, totally unnecessary.

Tycho wrote:

Yeah,, intercessors are basically space marines without the heavy/special weapons.

So where is the big distinction between "other generic sci-fi" and "40k" hiding then? is it in the Lascannon? The Plasma Gun? The Rocket Launcher? The Heavy Bolter? Never heard of any other sci fi settings that had weapons like those, no sir.../s

I hear this all the time and I kind of chuckle at it. It's like when someone makes fun of the original 80's/90's American action movie stars like Arnold and Sly Stalone for "being such cliches" while completely missing the fact that they were so good at what they did that they are the REASON those things became so cliche to begin with. lol

For marines - you can arguably see some Star Wars/Storm Trooper influence in their helmets, but after that, most of the armor design is coming from traditional suits of plate mail armor. This is, in part where the "knights in space" thing comes from. There are quite a few sci-fi armor designs that came along after the Space Marines that borrowed from/expanded on that design (Star Craft is a good example), and I think, because of this, people look back and go - oh yeah - Space Marines - they're generic sci-fi, but that's not really accurate IMO.


Admittedly, if you look at more modern sci-fi, the trend has been towards complexity. Lots of detail, lots of fiddly bits, but I don't think a lot of those styles will stand the text of time, and I also don't think they would work as well for miniatures.

40K didn't originate the 'knights in space' cliche, though. I mean, check out the 1984 cover art to Armor by John Steakley:



I'd also argue that when you get into Primaris armor, there isn't a whole lot there that's coming from medieval design. They don't have the throwback 'beakie' helms as standard anymore, and the comically oversized pauldrons and greaves that define their look don't have any clear historical inspiration. When sci-fi uses those specific elements, it's likely coming directly or indirectly from 40K; but generic power armor as a whole predates 40K, and 40K is a perpetuator of cliches in that regard as much as it is an originator.

As far as Starcraft is concerned, I think there actually is a legitimate case to be made that GW was influenced by Starcraft in their Tyranid designs- the 3rd Ed Tyranid revamp is much closer to the Zerg than the 2nd Ed (pre-Starcraft) range it replaced.

Land Raider being a ripoff from judge Dredd?

hmm.. Must be. I mean, this looks exactly same doesnt it

Not at GW stores, and not at events. You can use 100-for-$10 brown plastic WWII soldiers to be guardsmen too in garagehammer if you want. GW has very carefully made primaris just different enough from the oldmarine kits to not be effectively interchangeable. Because again, the whole point is to get you to replace your oldmarines, not to use them as "counts as" for the new ones.

Icegoat wrote:
Why? Why didnt they just make new marine models but properly sized?

Because it would have cost them as much to develop, produce and distribute those properly sized Space Marines than producing new, never seen or used before Space Marines. The former would have made significantly less sales than the later because man players, especially those with well painted models, would not replace their old models for the new ones. This isn't very financially smart. The other problem is associated with bloat and rule design. You can replace old models and make profit, but it helps to motivate players to do so by adding new units to an existing line of model. The Space Marine line was very bloated with little new niches available making the rule design process extremely lengthy and upkeep space in stores and depo more difficult and expansive. The judged that keeping the old marines as is or just changing them to a new size would be less profitable long and medium term for their game system and their company than rebooting the Space Marines. Was it a good business and gameplay decision? I would say that GW was proven right. They made a lot of money with the Primaris line of model and their gameplay seems to be just appreciated if not even more liked than before. The only downplay was that they might have damaged the artistic quality of their IP which is a main driver of the fidelity of their consummer base.

Its quite funny to anyone who was involved with the hobby when RTB-01 kit was the latest shiny to read this talk about primaris being too minimalistic and "tacticool" to be proper spce marines. The classic corvus armour with the umbra pattern bolters looked quite clean to me tbh. All that "knights.. IN SPACE" stuff came much, much later.

 catbarf wrote:

40K didn't originate the 'knights in space' cliche, though. I mean, check out the 1984 cover art to Armor by John Steakley:

That's the copy I have

No swords in that book though. It's laser rifles, missile barrages and when those are out, just armored fists. The cover art isn't necessarily the armor described in the book either anyways. Felix's armor as a scout was black, not chrome

If anything. . . the old school Tyranid Warriors are actually more like that book describes the Ants. Three body segments, standing upright.

Blizzard definitely ripped off GW for a lot of its designs, but it's also true as someone else pointed out that GW has ripped them off back. Tyranids became very clearly and intentionally more zerg-like in design after the release of SC.

tauist wrote:
Its quite funny to anyone who was involved with the hobby when RTB-01 kit was the latest shiny to read this talk about primaris being too minimalistic and "tacticool" to be proper spce marines. The classic corvus armour with the umbra pattern bolters looked quite clean to me tbh. All that "knights.. IN SPACE" stuff cme much, much later.

That beakie helmet and studded shoulder pad are really strong knight influences. If not actual knights, at least the movie Excalibur, haha.

 Insectum7 wrote:

tauist wrote:
Its quite funny to anyone who was involved with the hobby when RTB-01 kit was the latest shiny to read this talk about primaris being too minimalistic and "tacticool" to be proper spce marines. The classic corvus armour with the umbra pattern bolters looked quite clean to me tbh. All that "knights.. IN SPACE" stuff cme much, much later.

That beakie helmet and studded shoulder pad are really strong knight influences. If not actual knights, at least the movie Excalibur, haha.

Interesting. I seem to recall a blurry memory from my youth where I coulda sworn I saw the Mk VI armour in a morning cartoon episode of Robotech anime on Sky Channel. I've been trying to find the image ever since, but I'd need access to old all those old Robotech series episodes to do that.

40K didn't originate the 'knights in space' cliche, though. I mean, check out the 1984 cover art to Armor by John Steakley:

I didn't say they originated it ... just that Space Marines, as a concept, are not and were not "generic scifi".

I'd also argue that when you get into Primaris armor, there isn't a whole lot there that's coming from medieval design. They don't have the throwback 'beakie' helms as standard anymore, and the comically oversized pauldrons and greaves that define their look don't have any clear historical inspiration. When sci-fi uses those specific elements, it's likely coming directly or indirectly from 40K; but generic power armor as a whole predates 40K, and 40K is a perpetuator of cliches in that regard as much as it is an originator.

? The Primaris power armour is still nearly identical in most cases to the OG power armor. Which was taken from suits of plate armor. The influence is still there and still pretty clear. If your only frame of reference for that type of armor is the "beak" helmet then I get the confusion, but yeah, you can still see the plate-mail influence.

As far as Starcraft is concerned, I think there actually is a legitimate case to be made that GW was influenced by Starcraft in their Tyranid designs- the 3rd Ed Tyranid revamp is much closer to the Zerg than the 2nd Ed (pre-Starcraft) range it replaced.

No. The thread was arguing that the ORGINAL marines came from Starcraft lol. Blizzard themselves have said that 40k played heavily as an influence into the designs of a lot Starcraft stuff. I think it's pretty fair to say that stuff in turn inspired GW designers on their next rounds of things (especially in the 'nid revamp you point out, and I would also argue that you can see some influence in the Inceptor armor), but it's a far cry from haveing "stolen" it. So many people don't know/understand how this type of thing works ... They just see the things that came AFTER 40k but were clearly inspired by it, and just go oh yeah "generic Scifi".

Yeah, not like the totally unique and original Land Raider that we definitely didn't wholly copy/paste from judge dredd no sirree

The original Land Raider? You mean the one they pretty openly based off of WW1 tanks? That one? lol

My question was: Where in the distinction between Oldmarine Thing (Tactical Marine) and Newmarine thing (intercessor) was the "original 40k-ness" swapped for "generic sci-fi ness"?

My point was that 40k was never "generic" and that the Primaris themselves are also not generic. It's a unfair critique imo.

tauist wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

tauist wrote:
Its quite funny to anyone who was involved with the hobby when RTB-01 kit was the latest shiny to read this talk about primaris being too minimalistic and "tacticool" to be proper spce marines. The classic corvus armour with the umbra pattern bolters looked quite clean to me tbh. All that "knights.. IN SPACE" stuff cme much, much later.

That beakie helmet and studded shoulder pad are really strong knight influences. If not actual knights, at least the movie Excalibur, haha.

Interesting. I seem to recall a blurry memory from my youth where I coulda sworn I saw the Mk VI armour in a morning cartoon episode of Robotech anime on Sky Channel. I've been trying to find the image ever since, but I'd need access to old all those old Robotech series episodes to do that.

Coulda happened, for sure. If you can find it I'd love to see it.