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2020/08/03 20:12:48
Subject: Re:Why did games workshop kill space marines?
First things first: nobody killed Space Marines, least of all Games Workshop. Unless I missed something, and agents of GW kicked in every SM collectors front door last night and burned their models all around the globe. In the real world, OldMarines are still around and sold by GW, supported by current rules, and nothing will change in either regard in the near future.
Sooner or later there will be a day when GW officially stops to sell the older range of SM models, as well as move their rules to Legends (i.e. no longer support OldMarines at all). Only then will anybody not willing to buy into Primaris and keep playing with "OldMarines only!!!" have a legitimate complaint - we are not there yet. And even then those people can still either use Legends rules in the (then current) edition ruleset, or continue to play an older edition.
The only one thing I wonder how GW will get around is this: once OldMarines are no longer sold, how are people supposed to play any scenario before the arrival of Primaris? That is 10000 years of SM background no longer accessible...
2020/08/03 20:12:57
Subject: Re:Why did games workshop kill space marines?
My point was that 40k was never "generic" and that the Primaris themselves are also not generic. It's a unfair critique imo.
Here's what I'll say about the Primaris bit, and the reason I find them dissapointing froma design standpoint. They're clearly an evolution of the basic Marine armor style that we've come to know and love(or not). But the additional details they've brought to it in an effort to "modernize" it, are themselves quite generic sci-fi. Little circular servos, Tau/anime winglets, LED-looking lights. While the original Space Marine designs are this glorious mishmash of genres and influences, the new ones are pretty basic, and featuring details you'd find on pinterest pages devoted to sci-fi armors, etc. There's just not a lot of fire to them, conceptually.
Understandably so, btw. GW wants a predictable seller and they made one. But it is pretty predictable stuff, aesthetically.
I'd also argue that when you get into Primaris armor, there isn't a whole lot there that's coming from medieval design. They don't have the throwback 'beakie' helms as standard anymore, and the comically oversized pauldrons and greaves that define their look don't have any clear historical inspiration. When sci-fi uses those specific elements, it's likely coming directly or indirectly from 40K; but generic power armor as a whole predates 40K, and 40K is a perpetuator of cliches in that regard as much as it is an originator.
? The Primaris power armour is still nearly identical in most cases to the OG power armor. Which was taken from suits of plate armor. The influence is still there and still pretty clear. If your only frame of reference for that type of armor is the "beak" helmet then I get the confusion, but yeah, you can still see the plate-mail influence...
The major distinguishing features of the Mk.X armour are the extended collar (which you'll find on Mk.VIII armour, most visibly in the Deathwatch kit) which resembles a plate armor component called a "bevor" (a component attached to the neck that goes up over the face to present a neck with no gap between plates at the top of the cuirass/bottom of the helm), and the knee-fin (the knee in plate armour is called a "poleyn" and you do get protruding extended bits from knees, but there isn't a specific name for it). Pretty much all the rest is just truescaled Mk.VII with a Mk.IV helmet. I'd concur that Primaris armour is pretty much exactly as inspired by plate armour as the rest of power armour, especially given the faulds and the rondels we've started getting on Indomitus models.
There's just not a lot of fire to them, conceptually.
That's fair. I've not seen the "Tau style widgets" you mention, but yeah, as an evolution they are fairly minor in that regard. That's why I keep going back to "why didn't we just say these are true-scale marines". I could kind of see it at first. With those plain looking Intercessors sitting next to my "blinged out" traditional marines (but NOT my RTB01 marines lol), you could see a cool story developing where you had the OG marines praying to the Big E, ect and these new guys who are all about war and are not, in any way, interested in "hearing the good news" as it were. lol
This set up an interesting dichotomy where you had what Guilliman originally intended the Marines to be post-Codex Astartes (in the Primaris), and what they actually became after he was put into suspended animation. Lots of cool story lines and potential ideas suggested there, but if we're now advancing the timeline and saying "yeah, even the Primaris are now blinged out with holy relics, etc (as per some of the models in Indomitus), then yeah, I'm back to "Why aren't they just true-scale marines".
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
2020/08/03 20:32:10
Subject: Why did games workshop kill space marines?
yukishiro1 wrote:But this is just a silly argument. Nobody can ever force you to buy anything. Those example aren't the same because if you have old sisters squads you can continue to use them as the new sisters or CSM squads (not that anybody uses CSM). You can't use tacs as intercessors.
You can. But, more importantly, you don't have to right now, because Tactical Marines are still a thing in game!
Get back to me when you literally don't have a datasheet for Tacticals. I'm not saying it won't happen, I'm not clairvoyant - but I am saying that right now, any Tactical Marines are not invalidated unless you so choose them to be.
It's not some big coincidence that GW hasn't released oldmarine kits in ages.
Yeah, just like we know that Tyranids and Grey Knights are being squatted because they haven't had a new kit! Oh, you mean they're not?
Plus, aren't the Space Marine Heroes range Firstborn, and not Primaris?
the_scotsman wrote:
Kanluwen wrote: What in the Primaris range can't you use old ones as stand-ins for or easily convert?
-Incursors/Infiltrators would be tough to differentiate from Intercessors counts-as - Scouts with bolters/shotguns would be my best bet - though Incursors would be difficult -Intercessors with stalker/assault - Tacticals, and I'd just have the player tell me what variant they're armed with - let's be honest, it's not like other people don't proxy what gun they use on their Intercessors -Inceptors - Assault Marines with jump packs, I'd handwave the base sizes -Suppressors - If Devastators could have autocannons, I'd have put them here - but in the absence of that, yeah, there's no easy equivalent. -Spacemario Kart - Attack Bike -Space marine turret thingies (both the big one and the small one) - The drop turret thing? The small one, I'd say as a Tarantula, perhaps? -Repulsor Executioner - Land Raider - again, just say it's an Executioner, and I'll be good -Las-fusil eliminators - Lascannon Devastators, or just Scouts with a note saying what they are -Flamer Aggressors - Yeah, this one is pretty different. I'd generally just say "just take Terminators, and tell me what kind of Aggressor they are".
Suggestions italicised.
On another note, wouldn't it have made more sense to do it the other way around? Like, proxying OLD units as Primaris?
As far as that goes, the only real one I'm having an issue with is Assault Marines and Vanguard Vets with jump packs. I think the rest can largely find new places and roles?
They/them
2020/08/03 20:32:45
Subject: Why did games workshop kill space marines?
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2020/08/03 20:36:55
Subject: Why did games workshop kill space marines?
I await the day they squat terminaters cos those god dam gravis looking morons are the worst models I've ever seen if they think they have even one iota of the coolness and good will of temrinatirs well that's the day I say goodbye gw.
2020/08/03 20:38:49
Subject: Why did games workshop kill space marines?
tauist wrote: Its quite funny to anyone who was involved with the hobby when RTB-01 kit was the latest shiny to read this talk about primaris being too minimalistic and "tacticool" to be proper spce marines. The classic corvus armour with the umbra pattern bolters looked quite clean to me tbh. All that "knights.. IN SPACE" stuff cme much, much later.
That beakie helmet and studded shoulder pad are really strong knight influences. If not actual knights, at least the movie Excalibur, haha.
Interesting. I seem to recall a blurry memory from my youth where I coulda sworn I saw the Mk VI armour in a morning cartoon episode of Robotech anime on Sky Channel. I've been trying to find the image ever since, but I'd need access to old all those old Robotech series episodes to do that.
Coulda happened, for sure. If you can find it I'd love to see it.
I actually found the first season on youtube! Will bingewatch and report back, although it is possible that I'm misremembering things.. the series was made in 1985 so its possible my mind is just effing with me
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
2020/08/03 20:44:00
Subject: Why did games workshop kill space marines?
Irkjoe wrote: Because whoever is making these decisions doesn't care for the traditional style of 40k. They think that a more generic scifi, disney, warhammer heroes will appeal to a broader range of people and that is worth losing older players that like the original aesthetic. And they're probably right.
To pretend that space marines ever weren't really "generic scifi" is disingenuous.
Chainsword wielding, brain eating, space-Nazis-as-the-GOOD-guys, doesn't strike me as "generic sci-fi".
You want generic sci-fi, look no further than the Repulsor.
Yeah, not like the totally unique and original Land Raider that we definitely didn't wholly copy/paste from judge dredd no sirree
My point was that 40k was never "generic" and that the Primaris themselves are also not generic. It's a unfair critique imo.
Here's what I'll say about the Primaris bit, and the reason I find them dissapointing froma design standpoint. They're clearly an evolution of the basic Marine armor style that we've come to know and love(or not). But the additional details they've brought to it in an effort to "modernize" it, are themselves quite generic sci-fi. Little circular servos, Tau/anime winglets, LED-looking lights. While the original Space Marine designs are this glorious mishmash of genres and influences, the new ones are pretty basic, and featuring details you'd find on pinterest pages devoted to sci-fi armors, etc. There's just not a lot of fire to them, conceptually.
Understandably so, btw. GW wants a predictable seller and they made one. But it is pretty predictable stuff, aesthetically.
I follow you. The once diverse universe representing both fantasy tropes in space, has become even more human centric, especially actionfigure space marine GI Joe stylings... Which, from a Pepsi fueled marketeers perspective, sure, one might see that there is a market there, for a futuristic space-Joe selling 10inch dolls to 12million kids at Christmas. Then, there are the hats, bookbags, winter gloves and boots, armor-looking jackets, actually power armored jackets (sure!)... the potential for licensing is boundless.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/03 20:52:25
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2020/08/03 21:02:29
Subject: Why did games workshop kill space marines?
tauist wrote: Its quite funny to anyone who was involved with the hobby when RTB-01 kit was the latest shiny to read this talk about primaris being too minimalistic and "tacticool" to be proper spce marines. The classic corvus armour with the umbra pattern bolters looked quite clean to me tbh. All that "knights.. IN SPACE" stuff cme much, much later.
That beakie helmet and studded shoulder pad are really strong knight influences. If not actual knights, at least the movie Excalibur, haha.
Interesting. I seem to recall a blurry memory from my youth where I coulda sworn I saw the Mk VI armour in a morning cartoon episode of Robotech anime on Sky Channel. I've been trying to find the image ever since, but I'd need access to old all those old Robotech series episodes to do that.
Coulda happened, for sure. If you can find it I'd love to see it.
I actually found the first season on youtube! Will bingewatch and report back, although it is possible that I'm misremembering things.. the series was made in 1985 so its possible my mind is just effing with me
My point was that 40k was never "generic" and that the Primaris themselves are also not generic. It's a unfair critique imo.
Here's what I'll say about the Primaris bit, and the reason I find them dissapointing froma design standpoint. They're clearly an evolution of the basic Marine armor style that we've come to know and love(or not). But the additional details they've brought to it in an effort to "modernize" it, are themselves quite generic sci-fi. Little circular servos, Tau/anime winglets, LED-looking lights. While the original Space Marine designs are this glorious mishmash of genres and influences, the new ones are pretty basic, and featuring details you'd find on pinterest pages devoted to sci-fi armors, etc. There's just not a lot of fire to them, conceptually.
Understandably so, btw. GW wants a predictable seller and they made one. But it is pretty predictable stuff, aesthetically.
I follow you. The once diverse universe representing both fantasy tropes in space, has become even more human centric, especially actionfigure space marine GI Joe stylings... Which, from a Pepsi fueled marketeers perspective, sure, one might see that there is a market there, for a futuristic space-Joe selling 10inch dolls to 12million kids at Christmas. Then, there are the hats, bookbags, winter gloves and boots, armor-looking jackets, actually power armored jackets (sure!)... the potential for licensing is boundless.
We already got the bobbleheads and a bunch of other merch.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/03 21:03:53
I think there is also more general unease among the GW management that the old grimdark setting is, well, too grim and dark for a Twitter activist world. The Imperium as classically envisioned is a fascist state opposed more than anything else to the expression of human individuality, on the theory that such expression leads to chaos and anarchy. It is an organization that considers diversity of thought a mortal threat to be crushed, not a strength to embrace, and that operates on the basic assumption that humans are deeply flawed beings that need to be controlled by a firm hand, not allowed to flourish according to their own desires. In short, it's completely opposed to everything about modern 21st century orthodoxy on how society should look.
I suspect there is a real concern about that for GW's suits as they try to position 40k for broader mass appeal. It's a difficult line to tread, because of course the fact that the Imperium isn't just The Good Guys (TM) is what makes the setting interesting. But I do think the general "We're The Heroes!" aesthetic of the Primaris is evidence of the general tilt of where the IP is being pushed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/03 21:09:30
2020/08/03 21:31:40
Subject: Why did games workshop kill space marines?
I suspect there is a real concern about that for GW's suits as they try to position 40k for broader mass appeal. It's a difficult line to tread, because of course the fact that the Imperium isn't just The Good Guys (TM) is what makes the setting interesting. But I do think the general "We're The Heroes!" aesthetic of the Primaris is evidence of the general tilt of where the IP is being pushed.
I think part of the problem is that its becoming apparent that all the things that make the Imperium not "The Good Guys (TM)" are things that draw an unfortunate audience of people who see those things as reasons the Imperium ARE the good guys....
2020/08/03 21:36:29
Subject: Why did games workshop kill space marines?
tauist wrote:Its quite funny to anyone who was involved with the hobby when RTB-01 kit was the latest shiny to read this talk about primaris being too minimalistic and "tacticool" to be proper spce marines. The classic corvus armour with the umbra pattern bolters looked quite clean to me tbh. All that "knights.. IN SPACE" stuff came much, much later.
Bingo, I long for the days of RTB-01 Beakies....except the constipated poses.
Clean & "functional".
2020/08/03 21:43:56
Subject: Why did games workshop kill space marines?
40K - like many sci-fi games at the time - took their inspiration from films. In 1997, Starship Troopers hit the big screens and while being absolutely gawd'awful it was an instant hit for sci-fi fans. If Space Hulk was ALIENS then the Tyranid range of 3rd Edition was definitely Starship Troopers. 3rd edition instantly took to the Imperial Guard as the "troopers" and the long clawed "bugs" melded with the already Aliens-inspired tyranids, creating a new range.
Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.
2020/08/03 21:44:49
Subject: Why did games workshop kill space marines?
tauist wrote:Its quite funny to anyone who was involved with the hobby when RTB-01 kit was the latest shiny to read this talk about primaris being too minimalistic and "tacticool" to be proper spce marines. The classic corvus armour with the umbra pattern bolters looked quite clean to me tbh. All that "knights.. IN SPACE" stuff came much, much later.
Bingo, I long for the days of RTB-01 Beakies....except the constipated poses.
Clean & "functional".
Here's my recent take with parts gathered from multiple Tactical boxes. The guns are actually the top Bolters from Rhino Mk1 kits, I had them left over from building non-rhino variants of the kit, decades ago.
Icegoat wrote: Ok ignore the great primaris lore cause apparently its superb top notch makes complete sense. How would people react if two wound 10 foot tall new elder came along? An ancient race happily living for millions of years oh wait cawl invented space elf steroids buy these new super elder. Primaris have killed any Hope's of 40k moving into other media. Just like aos did with fantasy. So far there has not been a single video game released set in age of sigmar or with primaris. It think that tells you enough. They killed their golden goose.
Primaris have only been a thing for 3 years.
Videogames take a long time to make.
GW have also posted massive consecutive profits for the last 3 years in a row that eclipse all of their previous years. If they killed their golden goose and Primaris are a disaster, how do you explain this? Has Necromunda picked up the slack?
Nazi punks feth off
2020/08/03 22:05:31
Subject: Why did games workshop kill space marines?
I suspect there is a real concern about that for GW's suits as they try to position 40k for broader mass appeal. It's a difficult line to tread, because of course the fact that the Imperium isn't just The Good Guys (TM) is what makes the setting interesting. But I do think the general "We're The Heroes!" aesthetic of the Primaris is evidence of the general tilt of where the IP is being pushed.
I think part of the problem is that its becoming apparent that all the things that make the Imperium not "The Good Guys (TM)" are things that draw an unfortunate audience of people who see those things as reasons the Imperium ARE the good guys....
I think this is hitting on an extremely interesting issue where the dystopian nature of 40k is intersecting with increasingly dystopian elements of real life. To keep it light and not branch into politics; the 21st century has seen strong growth in extremist viewpoints, even stronger growth in harmful misinformation, erosion of basic democracy in many parts of the world, not to mention a rapidly accelerating deterioration of the world itself. I don't bring this up as some alarmist nonsense (humanity will deal with it) but rather to say that these are issues which are very real and very present in people's lives today. It means witnessing those same elements in 40k cuts a lot closer to home than it did last century, it makes the reality-escape element more difficult to attain.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/03 22:06:14
yukishiro1 wrote:I think there is also more general unease among the GW management that the old grimdark setting is, well, too grim and dark for a Twitter activist world.
Didn't GW pretty much put out a statement (for whatever that's worth) that even though their fictional worlds were horrible and rooted in terrible regimes, they didn't agree or condone any of that IRL?
Now, as my later point goes on to say, maybe that's all hot air, but GW are aware of their position, but I don't exactly see them shying away from how awful the Imperium is. After all - those Penitent Engines looked pretty damn painful.
I suspect there is a real concern about that for GW's suits as they try to position 40k for broader mass appeal.
To hit back against this - the suits clearly don't care THAT much about being "PC", as it were, as they were more than happy to fire a BL freelancer because they called out fascist "fans".
It's a difficult line to tread, because of course the fact that the Imperium isn't just The Good Guys (TM) is what makes the setting interesting. But I do think the general "We're The Heroes!" aesthetic of the Primaris is evidence of the general tilt of where the IP is being pushed.
I don't know. Do "good guys" wear skeletons on their shields?
I don't see how the Primaris aesthetic is any more coded towards "good" than the Mark VII or VI.
They/them
2020/08/03 23:06:36
Subject: Why did games workshop kill space marines?
Meh , gw is just in the crossfire of the recent phenomenom of online screeching from small extremeist minorities so far in their respective corner that they nearly meet again....
As for good guys wearing Skulls, actually that is nothing, old Swiss mercs were Walking around with Jesus Struck to a cross in their flag sometimes.
Then there's three prussian and later on german empire hussar Regiments wearing Skulls.
Dtd corps and other such suicidal ideological formations were not as unkown .
40k just gives it a scifi gothic Vibe and artstyle but at the End of the Day it can't escape it's Inspiration and Function as Satire of the real world.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/03 23:07:31
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/08/03 23:08:08
Subject: Why did games workshop kill space marines?
Not Online!!! wrote: Meh , gw is just in the crossfire of the recent phenomenon of online screeching from small extremest minorities so far in their respective corner that they nearly meet again....
I wish I could exalt this 100 times.
2020/08/03 23:11:01
Subject: Why did games workshop kill space marines?
Not Online!!! wrote: Meh , gw is just in the crossfire of the recent phenomenon of online screeching from small extremest minorities so far in their respective corner that they nearly meet again....
I wish I could exalt this 100 times.
When truth has become worthy of exaltation people lie too much and forgot that their vis a vis is still also a Person.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/08/03 23:12:25
Subject: Why did games workshop kill space marines?
yukishiro1 wrote:I think there is also more general unease among the GW management that the old grimdark setting is, well, too grim and dark for a Twitter activist world.
Didn't GW pretty much put out a statement (for whatever that's worth) that even though their fictional worlds were horrible and rooted in terrible regimes, they didn't agree or condone any of that IRL?
Now, as my later point goes on to say, maybe that's all hot air, but GW are aware of their position, but I don't exactly see them shying away from how awful the Imperium is. After all - those Penitent Engines looked pretty damn painful.
I suspect there is a real concern about that for GW's suits as they try to position 40k for broader mass appeal.
To hit back against this - the suits clearly don't care THAT much about being "PC", as it were, as they were more than happy to fire a BL freelancer because they called out fascist "fans".
It's a difficult line to tread, because of course the fact that the Imperium isn't just The Good Guys (TM) is what makes the setting interesting. But I do think the general "We're The Heroes!" aesthetic of the Primaris is evidence of the general tilt of where the IP is being pushed.
I don't know. Do "good guys" wear skeletons on their shields?
I don't see how the Primaris aesthetic is any more coded towards "good" than the Mark VII or VI.
Typically the suits don't start to care until one of these IPs ends up on someones radar.
If you look at the recent MTG/D&D stuff with the White Supremacist magic card from 1994 and the Curse of Strahd Book, it wasn't until a group on twitter started calling for changes that things actually changed. I remember having tenuous arguments about that MTG card in 2003. All of the game stores in my area back then, (Midwest) refused to even buy or sell the card due to what was known about the artist who did it. But there was little public interest back then, if you didn't play magic, you were clueless.
I imagine once GW breaks into the main market like it wants, you'll see a lot of Grimdark lore get whitewashed to help with mass market appeal. Heck, I'll argue it's already happening now. Space Marines are definitely being portrayed as "heroic" and "champions" against chaos. (I.E. Good Humans vs. Bad Humans)
2020/08/03 23:13:30
Subject: Why did games workshop kill space marines?
yukishiro1 wrote:I think there is also more general unease among the GW management that the old grimdark setting is, well, too grim and dark for a Twitter activist world.
Didn't GW pretty much put out a statement (for whatever that's worth) that even though their fictional worlds were horrible and rooted in terrible regimes, they didn't agree or condone any of that IRL?
Now, as my later point goes on to say, maybe that's all hot air, but GW are aware of their position, but I don't exactly see them shying away from how awful the Imperium is. After all - those Penitent Engines looked pretty damn painful.
I suspect there is a real concern about that for GW's suits as they try to position 40k for broader mass appeal.
To hit back against this - the suits clearly don't care THAT much about being "PC", as it were, as they were more than happy to fire a BL freelancer because they called out fascist "fans".
It's a difficult line to tread, because of course the fact that the Imperium isn't just The Good Guys (TM) is what makes the setting interesting. But I do think the general "We're The Heroes!" aesthetic of the Primaris is evidence of the general tilt of where the IP is being pushed.
I don't know. Do "good guys" wear skeletons on their shields?
I don't see how the Primaris aesthetic is any more coded towards "good" than the Mark VII or VI.
Carrying the skeleton of a fallen hero on your storm shield seems pretty grimdark to me....but what really is grimdark anyway?
you know how to make primaris look more...grimdark? add MKIII helmets & pauldrons.
primaris kitbash really well with most of the recent marine kits and look as smooth or as gothic as you want them to be.
2020/08/03 23:22:49
Subject: Re:Why did games workshop kill space marines?
GW released Primaris Marines AFTER they released Super Guardsmen (Tempestus Scions), originally the Super Guardsmen were Elites choices called Stormtroopers or Kasrkin, then they were renamed to Tempestus Scions, then they got moved to the Troops slot, and are pure and simple, just BETTER Guardsmen...
In GW's eyes, the move worked, they released a new line of models, and people went with it. They then released a supplement Codex: Militarum Tempestus in 7E, and that was well received, thus creating drive for a Detachment choice for the Tempestus in 8E... Interestingly enough this was also when GW released their Primaris Space Marines...
Overall, I don't think they killed their 'Golden Goose', but that said, I don't agree with changing the lore as crazily as they have. For Guardsmen I would have been more content if they released the metal regiments in plastic instead, to coincide with the specific regiment choices. As for Marines, there really wasn't much they could do outside of 'Go Bigger', everything else had been pretty much done already.
The scale of the game has changed significantly since 3E... During 3E you had a small force, maybe a couple of transports, perhaps ONE tank, some troops, a crack Elites choice, and that was about it.
Then you start getting bigger and better units in subsequent editions; Sternguard, Kasrkin, Vehicle squadrons, etc... This drive created a need for having MORE tanks, MORE big stuff, etc... Until you have now, where we encounter Imperial Knights regularly enough that we need to build our lists for the expectation we will run into one.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/03 23:27:57
I will not rest until the Tabletop Imperial Guard has been reduced to complete mediocrity. This is completely reflected in the lore.
2020/08/03 23:23:38
Subject: Why did games workshop kill space marines?
They used the stormtrooper profiles, but lacked the special rules of Stormtroopers.
Also, Kasrkin were Troops in Codex: Eye of Terror (where they first got rules).
Yes, lets just ignore every single point about my post and be pedantic about a single insignificant point, just like you - strange coincidence isn't it?
I will not rest until the Tabletop Imperial Guard has been reduced to complete mediocrity. This is completely reflected in the lore.
2020/08/03 23:31:51
Subject: Why did games workshop kill space marines?
