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 ZergSmasher wrote:

This right here. Now we might at least see a few Termies on the table instead of them being the "lol that's cute" option. About time they were good for a change!

Deep striking heavy flamers are going to be fun again

I've been running half squads of termis for a while now - they work really well with salamanders. They weren't actually bad before, they just required a bit of finesse. But uh - this makes them a lot better. 3 Wounds a piece makes them legit terrifying - 12" Heavy flamers could also be pretty fun. I might go back to a full 10 man if this is the case.

tneva82 wrote:

The Newman wrote:
The Cyclone Launcher was always 2d6 in Frag mode, it is and always has been just a twin-linked Missile Launcher.

What interests me is that suddenly the Power Sword, Power Axe, etc all being 5 points makes sense, I'll be very surprised if that S+1, Ap 3, D1 profile isn't standard over all the power weapons now. (They did the same thing going from 2nd to 3rd if I recall, there were a half dozen different profiles in 2nd but they were all lumped under "Power Weapon" in 3rd.)

Well even if it is codex changes won't be all that quick so many will be old stats for long while


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Funny how people are　hoping new marine codex to balance things yet　all we see so far is buffs

You're assuming all other terminators won't go to 3 wounds as well? Because I see plenty of buffs for chaos marines on there that they will simply have to faq in.

Like multi melta change last year was errataed? Oh sorry they didn't.

And all armies obviously have terminators. Oh yes...oh sorry where's dark eldar terminators? Tau? Sob? Necron?

Where did I suggest xenos armies have terminators? Who even mentioned multimeltas?

ERJAK wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Funny how people are　hoping new marine codex to balance things yet　all we see so far is buffs

You're assuming all other terminators won't go to 3 wounds as well? Because I see plenty of buffs for chaos marines on there that they will simply have to faq in.

Tell me again how that helps Necrons or Eldar or Sisters, or Orkz?

So chaos gets buffed to be just as bad relative to marines, while every other factions eat a big fat one.

Neat.

Ofc, none marine armies are absolute scum and exist purely for other players to curbstomp with their 3 wound terminators, they will also receive no updates or buffs. Of course lets pretend there isn't a massive necron release and their existing units are getting buffed.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Funny how people are　hoping new marine codex to balance things yet　all we see so far is buffs

You're assuming all other terminators won't go to 3 wounds as well? Because I see plenty of buffs for chaos marines on there that they will simply have to faq in.

They might, but it'll take time for those Codexes to get out. They didn't "FAQ" the Stormshields and explicitly said they'll wait for the Codex to update those. I assume that'd be the philosophy going forward.

If you happen to be the 8th-Ed. "Space Wolves" or "Genestealer Cult"-Equivalent of 9th Edition, you might not get a Codex "bringing you up to 9th Edition standards" for a year or two (especially how slowly GW seems to be rolling out the Marine / Necron book to kick things off).

Combined with Codex-specific Secondaries making it easier to play the missions for books that have a 9th Ed. Codex, it might be a tough year or two for the "late Codex armies" of 9th.

There is a chance, I'm hoping that like with bolter discipline this would be a big enough wtf discrepancy they'd roll it out via faq though.

The Newman wrote:
The Powerfist / Chainfist swap makes sense since they're the same points now, one has the consistent damage that everyone thinks is more valuable and the other has the better Ap. I'm ok with this change.

You might want to reread the RAW AP on that datasheet for the chainfist...

Is this the 2nd instance we've seen a Flamer become 12"? Or was the Incendium cannon on the Invictor 12" before?
At any rate, I could see ALL Flamers becoming 12" now, especially since they cost the same as Meltaguns or Plasma now.
Flamers were only arbitrarily 8" before because the tear-drop shaped flame template was 8", but that worked vastly differently than Flamers in 8th/9th.

I've got my fingers crossed that Flamers become 12" across the board. At least for Imperials and Chaos. Eldar Flamers are still 5ppm so they could stay unchanged.

-

Speaking of other armies, anyone else notice that some units you would very much expect to see updates based on the teasers are currently out of stock? Fire Dragons, Pyrovores, CSM Terminators, that sort of thing?

Wonder if maybe the outrage over the bizarre point update was enough to get through to GW that some of those updates better be sooner rather than later.

Terminators are good in 9th with the new points values even without the 3rd wound, extra point of S on the power swords, etc. They're really aggressively pointed.

 Galef wrote:
Is this the 2nd instance we've seen a Flamer become 12"? Or was the Incendium cannon on the Invictor 12" before?
At any rate, I could see ALL Flamers becoming 12" now, especially since they cost the same as Meltaguns or Plasma now.
Flamers were only arbitrarily 8" before because the tear-drop shaped flame template was 8", but that worked vastly differently than Flamers in 8th/9th.

I've got my fingers crossed that Flamers become 12" across the board. At least for Imperials and Chaos. Eldar Flamers are still 5ppm so they could stay unchanged.

-

The Invictor flamer was 12" out of the box. One of the reasons why it's always been the auto-take weapon choice.

The Newman wrote:
Speaking of other armies, anyone else notice that some units you would very much expect to see updates based on the teasers are currently out of stock? Fire Dragons, Pyrovores, CSM Terminators, that sort of thing?

Wonder if maybe the outrage over the bizarre point update was enough to get through to GW that some of those updates better be sooner rather than later.

That's too small a span of time for GW to plan and produce updates.

What's 'out of stock' at the moment is essentially meaningless. In some cases its half or more of the range. For a while the only Necron model available at all was Szeras, and pick up sales alongside Indomitus and the upcoming codex seems like an obvious thing.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Terminators are good in 9th with the new points values even without the 3rd wound, extra point of S on the power swords, etc. They're really aggressively pointed.

But what's the 'Primaris only, oldmarines Legends now' narrative going to do in the face of such aggressive provocation?

The Newman wrote:
Speaking of other armies, anyone else notice that some units you would very much expect to see updates based on the teasers are currently out of stock? Fire Dragons, Pyrovores, CSM Terminators, that sort of thing?

Wonder if maybe the outrage over the bizarre point update was enough to get through to GW that some of those updates better be sooner rather than later.

Uhhuh. What was bizarre point upgrade over year ago? Seeing gw works with over year lead times. Any model that would start now would be fall 2021 release earliest.

It's not too small a span of time to pack new data card instructions into those boxes if they were already printed along with all the Marine/Necron cards that needed it.

Dudeface wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

The Newman wrote:
The Cyclone Launcher was always 2d6 in Frag mode, it is and always has been just a twin-linked Missile Launcher.

What interests me is that suddenly the Power Sword, Power Axe, etc all being 5 points makes sense, I'll be very surprised if that S+1, Ap 3, D1 profile isn't standard over all the power weapons now. (They did the same thing going from 2nd to 3rd if I recall, there were a half dozen different profiles in 2nd but they were all lumped under "Power Weapon" in 3rd.)

Well even if it is codex changes won't be all that quick so many will be old stats for long while


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Funny how people are　hoping new marine codex to balance things yet　all we see so far is buffs

You're assuming all other terminators won't go to 3 wounds as well? Because I see plenty of buffs for chaos marines on there that they will simply have to faq in.

Like multi melta change last year was errataed? Oh sorry they didn't.

And all armies obviously have terminators. Oh yes...oh sorry where's dark eldar terminators? Tau? Sob? Necron?

Where did I suggest xenos armies have terminators? Who even mentioned multimeltas?

ERJAK wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Funny how people are　hoping new marine codex to balance things yet　all we see so far is buffs

You're assuming all other terminators won't go to 3 wounds as well? Because I see plenty of buffs for chaos marines on there that they will simply have to faq in.

Tell me again how that helps Necrons or Eldar or Sisters, or Orkz?

So chaos gets buffed to be just as bad relative to marines, while every other factions eat a big fat one.

Neat.

Ofc, none marine armies are absolute scum and exist purely for other players to curbstomp with their 3 wound terminators, they will also receive no updates or buffs. Of course lets pretend there isn't a massive necron release and their existing units are getting buffed.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Funny how people are　hoping new marine codex to balance things yet　all we see so far is buffs

You're assuming all other terminators won't go to 3 wounds as well? Because I see plenty of buffs for chaos marines on there that they will simply have to faq in.

They might, but it'll take time for those Codexes to get out. They didn't "FAQ" the Stormshields and explicitly said they'll wait for the Codex to update those. I assume that'd be the philosophy going forward.

If you happen to be the 8th-Ed. "Space Wolves" or "Genestealer Cult"-Equivalent of 9th Edition, you might not get a Codex "bringing you up to 9th Edition standards" for a year or two (especially how slowly GW seems to be rolling out the Marine / Necron book to kick things off).

Combined with Codex-specific Secondaries making it easier to play the missions for books that have a 9th Ed. Codex, it might be a tough year or two for the "late Codex armies" of 9th.

There is a chance, I'm hoping that like with bolter discipline this would be a big enough wtf discrepancy they'd roll it out via faq though.

Massively missing the point at every level, congrats


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Is this the 2nd instance we've seen a Flamer become 12"? Or was the Incendium cannon on the Invictor 12" before?
At any rate, I could see ALL Flamers becoming 12" now, especially since they cost the same as Meltaguns or Plasma now.
Flamers were only arbitrarily 8" before because the tear-drop shaped flame template was 8", but that worked vastly differently than Flamers in 8th/9th.

I've got my fingers crossed that Flamers become 12" across the board. At least for Imperials and Chaos. Eldar Flamers are still 5ppm so they could stay unchanged.

-

The Invictor flamer was 12" out of the box. One of the reasons why it's always been the auto-take weapon choice.

Unless you can do math.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Saying GW doesn't like to get rid of rules is just objectively wrong. The necron and GK codexes basically had all the flavour ripped out if them since the Ward books got replaced and they removed anything remotly interesting about them and tyranids haven't had anything to make them interesting since 5th.

Or when csm went from the 3.5 codex to 4th? 4th to 6th, 6th to 8th? Remember when Chosen could infiltrate? When marks actually did something? Csm players remember.

Yeah totally, like how people really only took Mark of Nurgle and that was it? Totally good times!
Mark's not giving flat boosts is fine but there's so little interaction in terms of rules now it's a bit silly.

Ofc, none marine armies are absolute scum and exist purely for other players to curbstomp with their 3 wound terminators, they will also receive no updates or buffs. Of course lets pretend there isn't a massive necron release and their existing units are getting buffed.

I know you're saying this facetiously, but... xenos have been in a bad place for a long time now, and have barely had any decent updates in ... I don't even know how long.

Necrons getting an update now is a big deal, but it's too little too late. And you say it as if suddenly necrons are going to be a force to be reckoned with, but they were the worst army in the game for years, and their new update (so far) may barely be enough to put them into the levels of average at best.

Space marines need a massive series of nerfs and points reductions, to be brought in line with everyone else. Instead... they're getting 50% more durable terminators, and +1 strength on weapons that were already better than most armies have access to for the points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Saying GW doesn't like to get rid of rules is just objectively wrong. The necron and GK codexes basically had all the flavour ripped out if them since the Ward books got replaced and they removed anything remotly interesting about them and tyranids haven't had anything to make them interesting since 5th.

Or when csm went from the 3.5 codex to 4th? 4th to 6th, 6th to 8th? Remember when Chosen could infiltrate? When marks actually did something? Csm players remember.

Yeah totally, like how people really only took Mark of Nurgle and that was it? Totally good times!
Mark's not giving flat boosts is fine but there's so little interaction in terms of rules now it's a bit silly.

Wow, went a ways back for this one didn't you?

So what would you do with marks? And I expect to be impressed with Undivided.

Niiru wrote:

Ofc, none marine armies are absolute scum and exist purely for other players to curbstomp with their 3 wound terminators, they will also receive no updates or buffs. Of course lets pretend there isn't a massive necron release and their existing units are getting buffed.

I know you're saying this facetiously, but... xenos have been in a bad place for a long time now, and have barely had any decent updates in ... I don't even know how long.

Necrons getting an update now is a big deal, but it's too little too late. And you say it as if suddenly necrons are going to be a force to be reckoned with, but they were the worst army in the game for years, and their new update (so far) may barely be enough to put them into the levels of average at best.

Space marines need a massive series of nerfs and points reductions, to be brought in line with everyone else. Instead... they're getting 50% more durable terminators, and +1 strength on weapons that were already better than most armies have access to for the points.

You don't know how long? The Codex: Space marine version 2 came out last August. Barely a year ago. You have the memory of a gold fish.

No penalty to hit anymore with Powerfist?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Funny how people are　hoping new marine codex to balance things yet　all we see so far is buffs

You're assuming all other terminators won't go to 3 wounds as well? Because I see plenty of buffs for chaos marines on there that they will simply have to faq in.

you mean like they did when the loyalist chapter tactics started applying to all their units?

totally differant animals.

 Stormonu wrote:
No penalty to hit anymore with Powerfist?

There are no special rules what so ever on those "box-cards", neither on the unit or the weaponry. Expect the -1 to hit to remain.

 Stormonu wrote:
No penalty to hit anymore with Powerfist?

I don't know if the shortened datasheets give us all the information to include weapon rules/oddities, but it would be a boost for sure if that pans out.

footfoe wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Ofc, none marine armies are absolute scum and exist purely for other players to curbstomp with their 3 wound terminators, they will also receive no updates or buffs. Of course lets pretend there isn't a massive necron release and their existing units are getting buffed.

I know you're saying this facetiously, but... xenos have been in a bad place for a long time now, and have barely had any decent updates in ... I don't even know how long.

Necrons getting an update now is a big deal, but it's too little too late. And you say it as if suddenly necrons are going to be a force to be reckoned with, but they were the worst army in the game for years, and their new update (so far) may barely be enough to put them into the levels of average at best.

Space marines need a massive series of nerfs and points reductions, to be brought in line with everyone else. Instead... they're getting 50% more durable terminators, and +1 strength on weapons that were already better than most armies have access to for the points.

You don't know how long? The Codex: Space marine version 2 came out last August. Barely a year ago. You have the memory of a gold fish.

Uuuhh....He says he doesn't remember when XENOS got decent update. What does marine codex version 2 have got to do with that? So marines got one in last august. When did xenos get major update? GSC got semi decent, orks got bunch of buggies...what else?

footfoe wrote:
You don't know how long? The Codex: Space marine version 2 came out last August. Barely a year ago. You have the memory of a gold fish.

That's when space marines went from being good, to being hideously good. (They had several buffs (some beta) before their codex release that already started fixing issues they had). That's not related to what I said.

The Ynnari triumverate release is probably the last big eldar update, but that's now been completely redacted. Eldar still have a large proportion of their lineup that haven't been usable on the table for more years than some people on this forum have existed. Some of the models can drink, vote, and star in pornography.

No idea when the last necron improvement was. Same with Tau. Tyranids got a few units added to their lineup at some point in the last few years, maybe it was in 7th edition, I missed those as I was taking a break from the game for a couple years.

Xenos commonly have to wait 2 or 3 editions to get updates. At the moment it feels like space marines get a new update every month.

 Stormonu wrote:
No penalty to hit anymore with Powerfist?

No doctrines, inv save etc either.

The new instruction pamphlet datasheets are stripped down of all special rules so unless you assume GW went for zero special rules from now on it's incomplete datasheets so -1 to hit is likely there.

Since most competive etc players have codex anyway these aren't that useful for those. These are more for those tim-12yo's playing at home with friends who might not even have codex so rules in box, even if incomplete of special rules, works for them(or at least that's the only scenario where I can see use for these seeing they don't have point values nor special rules).

Niiru wrote:

footfoe wrote:
You don't know how long? The Codex: Space marine version 2 came out last August. Barely a year ago. You have the memory of a gold fish.

That's when space marines went from being good, to being hideously good. (They had several buffs (some beta) before their codex release that already started fixing issues they had). That's not related to what I said.

The Ynnari triumverate release is probably the last big eldar update, but that's now been completely redacted. Eldar still have a large proportion of their lineup that haven't been usable on the table for more years than some people on this forum have existed. Some of the models can drink, vote, and star in pornography.

No idea when the last necron improvement was. Same with Tau. Tyranids got a few units added to their lineup at some point in the last few years, maybe it was in 7th edition, I missed those as I was taking a break from the game for a couple years.

Xenos commonly have to wait 2 or 3 editions to get updates. At the moment it feels like space marines get a new update every month.

No new Nids since 2014. I'd love some updates to a few of our finecast sculpts or (gasp!) something new.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Saying GW doesn't like to get rid of rules is just objectively wrong. The necron and GK codexes basically had all the flavour ripped out if them since the Ward books got replaced and they removed anything remotly interesting about them and tyranids haven't had anything to make them interesting since 5th.

Or when csm went from the 3.5 codex to 4th? 4th to 6th, 6th to 8th? Remember when Chosen could infiltrate? When marks actually did something? Csm players remember.

Yeah totally, like how people really only took Mark of Nurgle and that was it? Totally good times!
Mark's not giving flat boosts is fine but there's so little interaction in terms of rules now it's a bit silly.

Wow, went a ways back for this one didn't you?

So what would you do with marks? And I expect to be impressed with Undivided.

Mark's in reality should've unlocked more Strats (we got one for each mark and that's it, obviously a problem), the Icons (which need a rework anyway in terms of rules) and interactions with Daemons. Flat stat boosts is nice and all but it doesn't work with the design philosophy of 8th/9th.

tneva82 wrote:

footfoe wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Ofc, none marine armies are absolute scum and exist purely for other players to curbstomp with their 3 wound terminators, they will also receive no updates or buffs. Of course lets pretend there isn't a massive necron release and their existing units are getting buffed.

I know you're saying this facetiously, but... xenos have been in a bad place for a long time now, and have barely had any decent updates in ... I don't even know how long.

Necrons getting an update now is a big deal, but it's too little too late. And you say it as if suddenly necrons are going to be a force to be reckoned with, but they were the worst army in the game for years, and their new update (so far) may barely be enough to put them into the levels of average at best.

Space marines need a massive series of nerfs and points reductions, to be brought in line with everyone else. Instead... they're getting 50% more durable terminators, and +1 strength on weapons that were already better than most armies have access to for the points.

You don't know how long? The Codex: Space marine version 2 came out last August. Barely a year ago. You have the memory of a gold fish.

Uuuhh....He says he doesn't remember when XENOS got decent update. What does marine codex version 2 have got to do with that? So marines got one in last august. When did xenos get major update? GSC got semi decent, orks got bunch of buggies...what else?

the point is that prior to space marines 8.5 Space Marines where NOT the top army. IIRC Eldar where (suprise suprise )

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
No penalty to hit anymore with Powerfist?

I don't know if the shortened datasheets give us all the information to include weapon rules/oddities, but it would be a boost for sure if that pans out.

They don't, they just give stats.

Basically the condensed datasheets exist to avoid doing five pages of translations in the assembly instructions. Including special rules would render that pointless.
If it isn't a number or a stat that can't be shown by a simple icon, it isn't included.

From the rules pdf (page 7)

A condensed version of a model’s datasheet can be found in its construction guide – this contains less
information than the full version, but will still let you get your unit on the field straight away.

Page 8 then shows the condensed and full version of the Outriders Squad (plus the full version of Assault Intercessors). 'Full' here having the meaning of weapon text, wargear options, abilities and keywords, as they appeared in Indomitus (not necessarily the codex)

 Stormonu wrote:
No penalty to hit anymore with Powerfist?

OOhhhhhhh. . . I missed that entirely! Well. . . it's not like there's any room for special rules on the chart. Jury's out, imo.

Semi-related, why do the new Skorpek destroyers not have a -1 to hit with their S8 blade, when the Skorpek Destroyer Lord has a -1 to hit on it's blade. :/

BrianDavion wrote:


the point is that prior to space marines 8.5 Space Marines where NOT the top army. IIRC Eldar where (suprise suprise )

They were still up there, upper-mid tier. And imperial guard were well up there as well. There were a couple Eldar lists that were very strong (probably alaitoc flyers, and Ynnari soup) but they've been completely killed off now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

So what would you do with marks? And I expect to be impressed with Undivided.

Mark's in reality should've unlocked more Strats . . .

Barf. Boooooooorrrrriiiiinnggggg.