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By my understanding a unit charging gets to fight first. A unit that is effected by the Tempor Mortis fights last. The two effects would cancel to let the enemy unit fight normally.

I've had a few arguments against it, mainly being that charging "isn't a unit rule to let them fight first, it just let's them do it".....for whatever that is worth. However I'd just like to see what Dakka thinks.

The unit affected by tempormortis would fight after all other eligible have fought, even if it charged.

 p5freak wrote:
The unit affected by tempormortis would fight after all other eligible have fought, even if it charged.

Pretty much this, Reasoning being the fight first for chargers isn't an ability, its the sequence resolution as stated in the rules. The Tempormortis thus can override usual resolution as long as the Judiciar nominates that unit (The unit attacking the judiciar) as the target for the ability, otherwise resolve as normal.

Charging units fight first exactly in the same way as units with "fight first" abilities do. Fight first and fight last counter each other, so in the case of a unit charging into tempomortis, you would alternate, starting with the player that hasn't charged (the player who's turn is not taking place). The rules fort this are on page 90 of chapter approved.

Seizeman wrote:
Charging units fight first exactly in the same way as units with "fight first" abilities do. Fight first and fight last counter each other, so in the case of a unit charging into tempomortis, you would alternate, starting with the player that hasn't charged (the player who's turn is not taking place). The rules fort this are on page 90 of chapter approved.

Not true. Always fight first/last only applies to units which have a special rule which says that they always fight first, like shalaxi helbane. A charging unit doesn't always fight first, only when it has charged.

A house divided hmm. Ive gotten a mix of responses from a mix of places.

 p5freak wrote:

Seizeman wrote:
Charging units fight first exactly in the same way as units with "fight first" abilities do. Fight first and fight last counter each other, so in the case of a unit charging into tempomortis, you would alternate, starting with the player that hasn't charged (the player who's turn is not taking place). The rules fort this are on page 90 of chapter approved.

Not true. Always fight first/last only applies to units which have a special rule which says that they always fight first, like shalaxi helbane. A charging unit doesn't always fight first, only when it has charged.

Read the section on page 90. The rules do not distinguish between different categories of "always fight first". They clearly state that charging units are included in the "fight first" part of the fighting sequence. That it only applies to unit special rules is something you are just making up.

Unless the target unit for 'Tempormortis' has an ability that grants it the ability to alway fight first (e.g. slanesh daemons, various warlord traits etc...) then even if it charged the unit will fight after all other units.

Details for Always Fighting First/ Last is in the 'Rare Rules' section (pg 361-362).

If a unit is under the affect of rules that always allows it to strike first, and also under the affect of rules that forces it to fight last these cancel. If such a unit charged, then even if target by such a rule it would still fight 'first; with other charging units.

Charging by it's self is not a rules that alway allows a unit to strike first, it only allows striking first on the turn in which that unit charged. So whilst charging is a rule (through the sequencig of attacks) to strike first, it is conditional, thus doesn't meet the criteria 'always'.

The wording for Belt of Russ whilst longer than 'Tempormortis' seems to be a word for word match to 'Tempormortis'. The principle difference is that Belt of Russ includes details what to do if a unit is under the effect of rules that grant it both the ability to always strike first, and dictate that it must always strike last - with rules to handle this situation now included in the main book, it nolonger needed in each abilities entry.

The FAQ for C:SW confirms that the Belt of Russ will force a charging unit to fight last (unless that unit has an ability to always fight first), which would be consistent with the rules as they appear in the 9E rulebook,

Assuming I’m getting the context right -

Chaos Lord Beatstick charges Judiciar Headsman.

Judiciar Headsman uses Tempormortis on Chaos Lord Beatstick at the start of the fight phase

All charging models have to fight first. No non-chargers can fight until after that per BRB.

Therefore Chaos Lord Beatstick must fight last among all charging models. They’re the only eligible models until after all charging models have fought, including Choas Lord Beatstick.

Breton wrote:
Assuming I’m getting the context right -

Chaos Lord Beatstick charges Judiciar Headsman.

Judiciar Headsman uses Tempormortis on Chaos Lord Beatstick at the start of the fight phase

All charging models have to fight first. No non-chargers can fight until after that per BRB.

Therefore Chaos Lord Beatstick must fight last among all charging models. They’re the only eligible models until after all charging models have fought, including Choas Lord Beatstick.

Nope, 'Last' means 'Last'. In in the situation where Chaos Lord Beatstick charges Judiciar Headmsman, Headsman will strike first.

Eligibility to be chosen in the fight phase is based on either a) having charged this turn or b) being within engagement range of an enemy unit (at time of selection) (pg 228).

The selection of unit is governed by some additional rules, in that of the Eligible units are selected in 3 'phases' (pg 229 &361)

1) Those Units that charged (p229) or have an ability to always strike first (pg 361) are (usually) selected first, starting with units controlled by the player whose turn it is (pg 362).
2) The 'remainder' of the units can then be selected, starting with the player whose turn is not taking place (pg 229)
3) Those Units that are forced to Fight Last, starting with units controlled by the player whose turn it is (pg 362).

Thus in the situation outlines the Chaos Lord can only be selected in 'phase 3'. Whist the Lord charged, the specific rule from the Judiciar takes presedence over the general rules.

If the Chaos Lord had a rule that meant he always strikes first, then in this situation the Lord would fight as if niether of the alway strike first and Tempormortis where affecting it (pg 362), thus on the turn he charged would fight in 'phase 1', and in any subsequent round fight in 'phase 2'. Charging in not a rule that always lets the model go first (it is conditinal on the model having charged, so fails to meet the criteria 'always'), and thus does not negate being forced to fight last.

Tempormortis doesn’t say fights last. It says fights after all other eligible units. Non-charging units are not eligible until all charging units have fought.

Breton wrote:
Tempormortis doesn’t say fights last. It says fights after all other eligible units. Non-charging units are not eligible until all charging units have fought.

From page 228 of the Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules:

An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn.

Page 229. This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn can not be selected to fight until all units that did make a charge move have fought.

They’re not eligible to be selected to fight until after all units that made a charge move. Tempormortis modifies the selected unit to be the last of the eligible units.

It’s my turn. I have three squads of Basic barebones assault marines, you have three squads of basic bare bones assault marines. I charge your three squads with my three squads. It’s my turn, so you get to select first. How many of your charged squads are eligible to be chosen before my three charging squads have fought?

You get to start selecting eligible units from your army (pg228). How many are eligible? Zero. Now it’s my turn, I pick a charging unit. Now it’s your turn, I have two chargers, you have three. None of yours are eligible to be chosen yet, I choose. Rinse and repeat. Now I have zero charging units, and you have three units that haven’t fought.

Tempormortis puts that unit at the back of eligibility, it doesn’t put any other unit ahead of chargers.

Non charging units are still not eligible to be chosen until after chargers have fought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
However Cornish also should have quoted the first part of always fights first/last on 361.

Similarly some rules say... all other eligible units. Not some explicit Always Fights Last keyword, but an almost direct quote of Tempormortis. So it’s going to get messy. Charging is similar to (according to GW) but not explicitly an Always Fights First opening another can of worms.

I think I’ll choose to get distracted and entertained by GW flipping who gets to pick first in the fight phase in this scenario.

Breton wrote:
Page 229. This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn can not be selected to fight until all units that did make a charge move have fought.

They’re not eligible to be selected to fight until after all units that made a charge move. Tempormortis modifies the selected unit to be the last of the eligible units.

I would disagree with you here. In the context of the 9E 40k rules eligibility to be selected is clearly stated as determined by meeting one (or both) of these criteria 1) Having Charged and/or 2) Being within Engagement range of the enemy. Within the context of the 9E 40k ruleset nothing about charging (or not) changes whether a unit is eligible to be selected, only when that unit may be selected. Within the rules for the Fight Phase, including applicable sections of the Rare Rules Sections the only other time eligibility (e.g 'eligible unit') is mentioned (in the context of when a unit can be chosen to fight in the fight phase) is for those 'fight last' effects (e.g. you may only select this unit after all other eligible units). If I understand you correctly you seem to be applying eligible/eligibility criteria in the general sense/ meaning (e.g. a unit is only 'eligible' when it is both 'eligible' to be selected as per the afore mentioned 2 criteria, and based on whether the unit charged/ has fight first abilities etc....) when within the rules mechanics 'Eligible to fight' it has a clear defination which your general extrapolation no longer matches.

Breton wrote:
It’s my turn. I have three squads of Basic barebones assault marines, you have three squads of basic bare bones assault marines. I charge your three squads with my three squads. It’s my turn, so you get to select first. How many of your charged squads are eligible to be chosen before my three charging squads have fought?

You get to start selecting eligible units from your army (pg228). How many are eligible? Zero. Now it’s my turn, I pick a charging unit. Now it’s your turn, I have two chargers, you have three. None of yours are eligible to be chosen yet, I choose. Rinse and repeat. Now I have zero charging units, and you have three units that haven’t fought.

By the rules I have 3 units that are eligible to be chosen, as I have 3 units within engagement range of an enemy unit. That your units charged mine doesn't change the eligibiity of my units to be selected, it does however limit when I can select my units relative to yours. Giving units preferential/ detremental rules on when they may be selected does not (directly) change thier eligibility to be chosen. The timing of when units maybe/ are chosen may indirectly change a units eligibility to be selected (e.g. a unit being destroyed before they can act, a unit no longer being within engagement range of an enemy unit due to causualties in one or both units from fighting earlier in the round...). Any of these indirect affects of timing will produce a change in the eligibility as the net result is that a unit no longer meets the eligibility requirements as stated in the rules.

Why of Why did GW manage to invent such a convoluted way of wording these abilities that allow it to descend into arguments.

It's even more conflicting if the unit has an ability that says they always fight first and have charged.

As the temper mortis seems to remove their always fights first ability but they still charged so fight first.

Seems like fighting first abilities might be clutch for Assualt units untill marines stop dominating the meta.