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Hi all!

I've just started through my 9th rulebook in preparation for my first game - and these won't come up in it - but I have some queries:

Invulnerable saves, page 222:

Some models have an Invulnerable Save. Each time an attack is allocated to a model with an invulnerable save, you can choose to use either its normal save characteristic or its invulnerable save, but not both. If a model has more than one invulnerable save, it can only use one of them - choose which it will use. If you use a models invulnerable save, it is never modified by a weapons Armour Penetration value.

The relevant part to me is this; Invulns aren't fixed, they simply disregard armour penetration values. So, if a unit had a special rule which gave it +1 to saving throws, this would apply to invulnerable saves? Obviously anything which "improved armour save by 1" wouldn't.

Are there such abilities in the game which don't stipulate "Invulnerable saves are not affected" like the terrain rules do?

Yes, you are right. Invulnerable saves can be modified by things other than AP.

Such effects did exist but are very rare. I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but I know they have come up in 8e.

Many abilities that improve saves specifically state that they do not improve invulnerable saves. This implies that other such abilities do improve invulnerable saves. I can't think of any of the top of my head though.

 Stux wrote:
Yes, you are right. Invulnerable saves can be modified by things other than AP.

Such effects did exist but are very rare. I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but I know they have come up in 8e.

Necron stratagem reclaim a lost empire is +1 to saving throws. Wraith camping on an objective marker could get a 2+ inv with that. Lychguard with shields could also get a 2+ inv when the stratagem was played twice on them, which was possible, because its not played during a phase.

AM primaris psyker psychic barrier is +1 to saving throws. Bullgryns with brute shields could get a 3+ inv.

Note that AM psychic barrier can also be performed by astropaths and Wyrdvanes.

Also Sisters of Battle have some units that improve other units InvSv

And here I thought Invulnerable saves cannot ever be modified by anything. Where in the rules does it state that these modifiers apply to inv saves? Or are we talking about vaguely worded blank statement "modifies saving throw by X"? I don't see why those would necessarily apply to inv saves

Eldar have a psyker power protect/jinx that'll +1 / -1 all saves including ++ saves

tauist wrote:
And here I thought Invulnerable saves cannot ever be modified by anything. Where in the rules does it state that these modifiers apply to inv saves? Or are we talking about vaguely worded blank statement "modifies saving throw by X"? I don't see why those would necessarily apply to inv saves

BRB update 1.6

Q: If an ability allows me to add 1 to saving throws, does it apply
to both normal saving throws and invulnerable throws?
A: Yes, unless otherwise stated.

tauist wrote:
And here I thought Invulnerable saves cannot ever be modified by anything. Where in the rules does it state that these modifiers apply to inv saves? Or are we talking about vaguely worded blank statement "modifies saving throw by X"? I don't see why those would necessarily apply to inv saves

It doesn't have to say it applies to an Invulnerable Save. It merely needs to not state it doesn't. Per the rules of Invulnerable Saves, you can use either your Sv or Invulnerable Save whenever you make a Saving Throw. The only difference is you ignore the attacks AP value when using your Invulnerable Save.

A good example is the Thousand Sons All is Dust ability. It give a +1 modifier to your Saving Throws against attacks with D1. That applies to your Saving Throw whether you use the model's Sv or Invulnerable Save. This is in contrast to Light Cover and Heavy Cover, that specify that they do not work for Invulnerable Saves.

A key thing to remember here is that many such abilities refer to this as "add 1 to the saving throw" (emphasis mine).
In other words, you're not altering the characteristic, but the dice roll itself. As such, when this wording is in place it would absolutely apply to invulnerable saves as well.

As previously mentioned, there are some sources that specifically state they don't apply to invulnerable saves. Also, I don't know if there are any still around, but my memory is dredging up abilities that had the wording as "improve Sv+ characteristic by 1" - if that wording's still around, that doesn't apply to invulnerable saves as they don't come from the Sv+ characteristic that's on the profile.


(added) As if by magic, a perfect example landed in today's FAQ:

Page 263 – Heavy Cover
Change this paragraph to read:
‘When an attack made with a melee weapon wounds a model
that is receiving the benefits of cover from this terrain feature,
add 1 to the saving throw made against that attack unless the
model that the attack is allocated to made a charge move this
turn (invulnerable saving throws are not affected).

Note that this calls out you add 1 to the saving throw - this would by itself affect invulnerable saves, but for the fact they're specifically called out.

tauist wrote:
And here I thought Invulnerable saves cannot ever be modified by anything. Where in the rules does it state that these modifiers apply to inv saves? Or are we talking about vaguely worded blank statement "modifies saving throw by X"? I don't see why those would necessarily apply to inv saves

There are in fact several abilities and psychic powers which explicitly improve invulnerable saves (for instance, Weaver of Fates or Isha's Weeping) so they can certainly be modified.