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There seems to be no definition of a psychic action. It was brought up in my group that it isn't a psychic powers so is not limited by casting one per phase. I couldn't disprove it besides stating it has a warp charge. The argument is if it was a psychic powers it would say so in it's rule as it doesn't and the action doesn't have a action duration it can be rapid fired as long as the caster has the casts to attempt it.

TheBoy wrote:
There seems to be no definition of a psychic action. It was brought up in my group that it isn't a psychic powers so is not limited by casting one per phase. I couldn't disprove it besides stating it has a warp charge. The argument is if it was a psychic powers it would say so in it's rule as it doesn't and the action doesn't have a action duration it can be rapid fired as long as the caster has the casts to attempt it.

There is an entire section dedicated to defining psychic actions... including how many times you can attempt it.

Page 258 of the BRB.

Good catch we were looking in matched play and psychic phase. Even checked the glossary. Glad to see that's not right.

The new FAQ takes care of things.

Page 258 – Performing Actions, second paragraph,
fourth sentence
Change this sentence to read:
‘A unit can only attempt to perform one action per battle round.’

Psychic action is a type of action.

Following the release of the FAQs, are we in agreement that mental interrogation and pierce the veil can be scored by different psyker characters from the same army in the same battle round? Do we also agree that the same applies to deploy scramblers, investigate sites, etc?

eparedes0785 wrote:
Following the release of the FAQs, are we in agreement that mental interrogation and pierce the veil can be scored by different psyker characters from the same army in the same battle round? Do we also agree that the same applies to deploy scramblers, investigate sites, etc?

Yes, because they are separate psychic actions. No, see below.

eparedes0785 wrote:
Following the release of the FAQs, are we in agreement that mental interrogation and pierce the veil can be scored by different psyker characters from the same army in the same battle round? Do we also agree that the same applies to deploy scramblers, investigate sites, etc?

No. You can't score both Mental Interrogation and Pierce the Veil because you can only pick one Warpcraft Secondary.

You also can't score Deploy Scrambler and Investigate Sites because they are both Shadow Operations secondaries.

However, you can score multiple secondaries that all require you to perform actions during a single battle round.

I don't think I worded my question correctly. Can I score 9 points from mental interrogation using my three psychic characters in a single battle round?

eparedes0785 wrote:
I don't think I worded my question correctly. Can I score 9 points from mental interrogation using my three psychic characters in a single battle round?

No, as the rules for Mental Interrogation clearly state "... One PSYKER CHARACTER from your army can attempt to perform this psychic action in your Psychic phase..."

 Ghaz wrote:

eparedes0785 wrote:
I don't think I worded my question correctly. Can I score 9 points from mental interrogation using my three psychic characters in a single battle round?

No, as the rules for Mental Interrogation clearly state "... One PSYKER CHARACTER from your army can attempt to perform this psychic action in your Psychic phase..."

Agreed.
In contrast, Raise the Banners High reads "One or more INFANTRY units from your army can start to perform this action at the end of your movement phase".

I am not very convinced tbh and I'm not reading it the same way. What's the rationale behind the FAQ that was just released yesterday on this matter then? I reckon it refers to the restriction of not being able to perform the same "normal" action multiple times with different units, which, as I understand it, never existed for psychic actions - which I don't think are limited to once per turn as psychic powers are -. One could argue that a deny attempt wouldn't then count towards the number of attempts to deny a unit has.

Some people claim it'd be nuts if you could for example mental interrogate a single enemy character with three characters of yours but, those three characters could potentially give away 15 points for abhor the witch and 9 points for assassinate. That seems to make sense in my mind. If not, given that those missions can only be accomplished by psychic characters, which potentially give away tons of points, they seem a very weak choice?

it doesn't matter what you "think" is right, all that matters is what the rules say.

And what do the rules say? Because it appears to me that they say the opposite pf what I've been told they do. Else, the FAQ from yesterday doesn't make any sense to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I posted "what I think is right" to trigger a debate based on facts, not because I think it's a valid point to substantiate my view, not at least by itself

eparedes0785 wrote:
I don't think I worded my question correctly. Can I score 9 points from mental interrogation using my three psychic characters in a single battle round?

I think this is allowed. There is no rule saying that you can only attempt this once per battle round, only that a unit can attempt to perform one action per battle round.

The way I see it, the wording seems to be predicated on the assumption that you attempt actions one at a time, and each time follow the rules. Similar to the way the wording often is for shooting attacks where the rules are written based on the idea that each attack is resolved individually, eg. when the rules refer to resolving "an attack" as opposed to "attacks".

I do think that this would benefit from being addressed in a future FAQ as I do think it is poorly worded.

I'm of the same opinion as you

Aash wrote:

I think this is allowed. There is no rule saying that you can only attempt this once per battle round, only that a unit can attempt to perform one action per battle round.

Its not allowed. One PSYKER CHARACTER from your army can attempt to perform this psychic action in your Psychic phase is pretty clear. One is one, not two, not three.

 p5freak wrote:

Aash wrote:

I think this is allowed. There is no rule saying that you can only attempt this once per battle round, only that a unit can attempt to perform one action per battle round.

Its not allowed. One PSYKER CHARACTER from your army can attempt to perform this psychic action in your Psychic phase is pretty clear. One is one, not two, not three.

The first time this action is attempted in your psychic phase it is by "one psyker character" then it can be attempted a second time by "one psyker character" and then a third time and so on. Each attempt is restricted to "one psyker character". There is no limitation on the number of attempts except that each unit can only attempt one action per battle round.

Aash wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Aash wrote:

I think this is allowed. There is no rule saying that you can only attempt this once per battle round, only that a unit can attempt to perform one action per battle round.

Its not allowed. One PSYKER CHARACTER from your army can attempt to perform this psychic action in your Psychic phase is pretty clear. One is one, not two, not three.

The first time this action is attempted in your psychic phase it is by "one psyker character" then it can be attempted a second time by "one psyker character" and then a third time and so on. Each attempt is restricted to "one psyker character". There is no limitation on the number of attempts except that each unit can only attempt one action per battle round.

What? By that logic entire units can throw grenades since you start with one, then another one, then another one. "One psyker character" means just that: one. Any other interpretation is just a failure of reading comprehension.

Aash wrote:

The first time this action is attempted in your psychic phase it is by "one psyker character" then it can be attempted a second time by "one psyker character" and then a third time and so on. Each attempt is restricted to "one psyker character". There is no limitation on the number of attempts except that each unit can only attempt one action per battle round.

The limit is one PSYKER CHARACTER.

It doesnt say one or more PSYKER CHARACTER units from your army can start to perform this action in your psychic phase.

To me, where it says "one psyker character", that wording gives you permission to make one attempt per battle round. Using a second attempt bumps that number to two, and I don't see where we're given permission to do that. Slipspace is correct in that treating each attempt as an individual "one" breaks grenades, and I'm sure all manner of other rules as well (the limit on refunding non-stratagem Command points springs to mind).

To put this another way - if it were intended to allow more than one attempt with different psykers, why not use wording like:
"You can attempt this psychic action with any PSYKER CHARACTER (blah blah)"
If the intent is only to allow for one successful attempt, that's easily fixed with an additional line that says "once successfully completed, you cannot attempt this psychic action again this battle round."

I don't think the grenade comparison is fair. The wording is quite different:

"When a unit shoots, one model that is equipped with a Grenade in that unit can resolve attacks with it instead of shooting any other weapons"

There is no ambiguity here because the grenade rules specify that the grenade choice is made "when a unit shoots" which is why each time a unit is selected to shoot then a Grenade can be selected. The wording for Mental Interrogation is unclear.

Personally I think RAI is that Mental Interrogation can only be attempted once per phase, but the rules don't explicitly say this. I think the interpretation that it can be attempted multiple times in a phase by different units is a valid interpretation, as is the interpretation that it is limited to one attempt per phase.

In order to unambiguously prohibit multiple attempts per phase the wording would need to say so.

How do you guys then explain the errata released yesterday which eliminates the following phrase from the "performing actions" chart in the rules:

""and the same action cannot be started by more than one unit in the same battle round"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless I'm missing sth, the errata intimates that, for instance, I could attempt to score that secondary multiple times with different infantry units on the same battle round?

Aash wrote:
[The first time this action is attempted in your psychic phase it is by "one psyker character" then it can be attempted a second time by "one psyker character" and then a third time and so on. Each attempt is restricted to "one psyker character". There is no limitation on the number of attempts except that each unit can only attempt one action per battle round.

If your interpretation of a rule requires you to ignore one of the words of the rule, it is probably wrong. Only one psycher character can attempt to do any thing at particular point in time. If you are allowed to repeatedly use one psycher character to perform an action that can be done by one psycher character, than the "one" is meaningless. This means your interpretation is wrong.

eparedes0785 wrote:
How do you guys then explain the errata released yesterday which eliminates the following phrase from the "performing actions" chart in the rules:

""and the same action cannot be started by more than one unit in the same battle round"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless I'm missing sth, the errata intimates that, for instance, I could attempt to score that secondary multiple times with different infantry units on the same battle round?

The original wording/restriction did clash with the wording of Raise the Banners High. Now it works.

So? Codex / specific rules typically trump general rules

eparedes0785 wrote:
So? Codex / specific rules typically trump general rules

You asked why they would have the errata - I've given you a possible reason linked to another secondary objective wording. Removing that line from Actions rules removes ambiguity from Raise the Banners High without changing or affecting the specific working of Psychic Ritual.

Using your own advice about specific rules, read the Psychic Ritual objective and tell me how you get more than one Psyker able to attempt in a round?

Psychic ritual has an introductory paragraph that explains how any unit is to successfully complete the psychic action that is later described three times during the battle. I admit I'm not a native English speaker but I do know that "any" is singular, hence it has to be the same unit all three times (as confirmed by GW yesterday),. You could however start performing the ritual with several different character psyker characters (probably not a good idea in this particular instance because you won't be able to attempt to manifest psychic powers with either).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wouldn't do it but maybe you'll fear that one of your two psychic characters may be slain at some point and you want redundancy