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Let’s say for example, the emperor of Mankind was bored and decided to organize a big UFC style event. Where unarmed fighters fought to the death, who would be most successful?
A couple of ideas, an imperial guard tournament where the best close combat guys from each regiment are chosen. Such as Acadian, Krieg, Mordian, Catachan, etc.
An Astartes tournament where the best close combat guy from each chapter represented for the chapter. (Can include chaos traitor legions)
An Ogryn tournament, where Ogryns from different planets like the Krourk and Bulwark fought.
Whatever other matchups you can think of. Who would win these events, no referee, no weapons, every competitor has the goal to win.
I don’t wanna include tyranids and such, because they have weapons biologically integrated.
Can include other humanoids like unarmed bloodletters, ORKS and Eldar.

I think the Chaos gods do this all the time with their armies for lulz.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I think the Chaos gods do this all the time with their armies for lulz.

Bloodletters vs bloodletters isn’t interesting.

I’m saying different space marine chapters, for example. Which one would come out on top in purely hand to hand combat...

Well, if we're removing weapons, but nothing else...

With Guardsmen, if we're assuming no Tempestus, then Catachans.
Any Astartes Librarian wins the Marine end. Most likely a Grey Knight.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Well, if we're removing weapons, but nothing else...

With Guardsmen, if we're assuming no Tempestus, then Catachans.
Any Astartes Librarian wins the Marine end. Most likely a Grey Knight.

You think a Scion could beat a Catachan in a straight up fist fight?
And why the Librarian?

Psychic powers weren't *specifically* prohibited. Smack someone with a Smite from the other side of the Arena... quick match.

I'd lean on a Catachan winning the Guard contest simply by virtue of CC training from everything on their planet and being giant hulking bastards. Unless Assassins get involved, not sure if they're "human" or not... in which case an assassin is going to win.

An Ork Warboss is going to smack down on any lesser Ork. Probably anything short of a SM Captain, when it comes to Imperial.

A tau in a Riptide could maybe beat a gretchin...

 greatbigtree wrote:
Psychic powers weren't *specifically* prohibited. Smack someone with a Smite from the other side of the Arena... quick match.

I'd lean on a Catachan winning the Guard contest simply by virtue of CC training from everything on their planet and being giant hulking bastards.

Ahhh yea. Well let me just put it this way, we’re only comparing physical toughness and skill in close combat. No psychers, no sorcerers, etc.

I’d agree with the Catachan, as for space marines I think an unarmored and unarmed khorne berserker would win out of Astartes.

How about an Ork Warboss vs an Ogryn from Krourk or Bulwark.
And lol at Tau

As this is specifically 40k - surely on the Imperial side, it's GOT to be Guilliman just by virtue of being a Primarch? I could perhaps see an argument for psykers having a crack against him, but I don't think it'd be enough of an edge. No-one else comes close, not even other Marines.

Chaos has some interesting options with Greater Daemons and Daemon Primarchs... Ghazzy would be a contender for the Orks, though I doubt he'd be an overall winner. Then of course the Eldar have the Avatar of Khaine. Or are we excluding them all on account of being too big to be 'humanoid'...?

If that's the case, my vote goes to Lelith Hesperax. She's basically made her name in the arena, I'm sure she's familiar with unarmed combat as well.

 Super Ready wrote:
As this is specifically 40k - surely on the Imperial side, it's GOT to be Guilliman just by virtue of being a Primarch? I could perhaps see an argument for psykers having a crack against him, but I don't think it'd be enough of an edge. No-one else comes close, not even other Marines.

Chaos has some interesting options with Greater Daemons and Daemon Primarchs... Ghazzy would be a contender for the Orks, though I doubt he'd be an overall winner. Then of course the Eldar have the Avatar of Khaine. Or are we excluding them all on account of being too big to be 'humanoid'...?

If that's the case, my vote goes to Lelith Hesperax. She's basically made her name in the arena, I'm sure she's familiar with unarmed combat as well.

I was thinking everyone fighting within a similar weight class. And no psychic powers or anything like that, just like straight up ufc style matches.


So let’s say Daemon Primarch vs other Daemon primarch or primarch.
That’s why I said diff guard regiments vs eachother. Cuz they wouldn’t stand a chance against a warboss or Astarte.

Andredre wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Well, if we're removing weapons, but nothing else...

With Guardsmen, if we're assuming no Tempestus, then Catachans.
Any Astartes Librarian wins the Marine end. Most likely a Grey Knight.

You think a Scion could beat a Catachan in a straight up fist fight?

Scions tend to have some degree of physical enhancement, and more advanced training to boot. But, if you're just comparing "guardsmen", then either a Catachan, or maybe a Kanak Skulltalker.

And why the Librarian?

Psychic powers, which weren't specificed to be banned. Even if you're ignoring something like Smites or more projectile based powers, then you could still factor in things like self-enhancing powers - something the Grey Knights in particular are good at.

Super Ready wrote:As this is specifically 40k - surely on the Imperial side, it's GOT to be Guilliman just by virtue of being a Primarch? I could perhaps see an argument for psykers having a crack against him, but I don't think it'd be enough of an edge. No-one else comes close, not even other Marines.

I figured this was about Marines vs other Marines, not just best in the Imperium.

But yeah, Guilliman would be the single best unarmed in the Imperium, purely out of his Primarch status. An Assassin *might* be capable, or something like a Custodes Tribune/Captain-General though.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Andredre wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Well, if we're removing weapons, but nothing else...

With Guardsmen, if we're assuming no Tempestus, then Catachans.
Any Astartes Librarian wins the Marine end. Most likely a Grey Knight.

You think a Scion could beat a Catachan in a straight up fist fight?

Scions tend to have some degree of physical enhancement, and more advanced training to boot. But, if you're just comparing "guardsmen", then either a Catachan, or maybe a Kanak Skulltalker.

And why the Librarian?

Psychic powers, which weren't specificed to be banned. Even if you're ignoring something like Smites or more projectile based powers, then you could still factor in things like self-enhancing powers - something the Grey Knights in particular are good at.

Super Ready wrote:As this is specifically 40k - surely on the Imperial side, it's GOT to be Guilliman just by virtue of being a Primarch? I could perhaps see an argument for psykers having a crack against him, but I don't think it'd be enough of an edge. No-one else comes close, not even other Marines.

I figured this was about Marines vs other Marines, not just best in the Imperium.

But yeah, Guilliman would be the single best unarmed in the Imperium, purely out of his Primarch status. An Assassin *might* be capable, or something like a Custodes Tribune/Captain-General though.

I think Scions would win fully equipped. But against a Catachan in a straight up fist fight, I can’t see them winning. Do they have any feats that match Harker carrying a heavy Bolter with more ease than a space marine. Or straken biting a tyranid’s throat out?

Well in the non-monster category, but superhuman category, and if we forbid tyranids from participating since they are weapons and cannot be unarmed, Ork Warbosses have enormous advantage in weight, strength, size and endurence. I wouldn't even trust a Guilliman to win a MMA match against Ghazkull (though Guilliman can't participate since he is stuck in an expensive super power armor).

In the non-augmented human category, I would either go for a Catashan Devil combat officer or the equivalent amonst the Sister of Battle of the Bloody Rose.

Amongst eldars, I think a succubus remains a safe bet for winning pretty much any one on one combat even without weapons (and they are used to fight without armors too).

If you include monstrous creatures, small walkers and large size battlesuits, I would probably give winner anything nurgle. They are extremely slippery, very heavy and endurant, though they might have to be disqualified because touching them is harmful.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Psychic powers weren't *specifically* prohibited. Smack someone with a Smite from the other side of the Arena... quick match.

A Librarian is still an Astartes. There is honor among brothers.

I don't know if I would bet on any dark eldar. They'd probably all be disqualified for using performance-enhancing substances

In the "mostly human" category, my money's on Sly Marbo.

epronovost wrote:
Well in the non-monster category, but superhuman category, and if we forbid tyranids from participating since they are weapons and cannot be unarmed, Ork Warbosses have enormous advantage in weight, strength, size and endurence. I wouldn't even trust a Guilliman to win a MMA match against Ghazkull (though Guilliman can't participate since he is stuck in an expensive super power armor).

In the non-augmented human category, I would either go for a Catashan Devil combat officer or the equivalent amonst the Sister of Battle of the Bloody Rose.

Amongst eldars, I think a succubus remains a safe bet for winning pretty much any one on one combat even without weapons (and they are used to fight without armors too).

If you include monstrous creatures, small walkers and large size battlesuits, I would probably give winner anything nurgle. They are extremely slippery, very heavy and endurant, though they might have to be disqualified because touching them is harmful.

I didn’t know Ghazkull was that much of a beast. I have to read his lore.
But let’s just say he can get out of his power armor, for discussion sake.
And Yea Nurgle is fine, even Tyranids. Just no guns or psychers. Just straight combat hand to hand, claw to claw, teeth to teeth.

Andredre wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I think the Chaos gods do this all the time with their armies for lulz.

Bloodletters vs bloodletters isn’t interesting.

I’m saying different space marine chapters, for example. Which one would come out on top in purely hand to hand combat...

Not interesting to YOU . Seriously though, there are worlds in the Eye of Terror where the gods send their armies against each other over and over again. Khorne vs. Tzeentch, Nurgle vs. Slaanesh, or even champion Greater Daemons of the same god leading armies against each other in a contest for their lords favor.

 Super Ready wrote:
As this is specifically 40k - surely on the Imperial side, it's GOT to be Guilliman just by virtue of being a Primarch? I could perhaps see an argument for psykers having a crack against him, but I don't think it'd be enough of an edge. No-one else comes close, not even other Marines.

Chaos has some interesting options with Greater Daemons and Daemon Primarchs... Ghazzy would be a contender for the Orks, though I doubt he'd be an overall winner. Then of course the Eldar have the Avatar of Khaine. Or are we excluding them all on account of being too big to be 'humanoid'...?

If that's the case, my vote goes to Lelith Hesperax. She's basically made her name in the arena, I'm sure she's familiar with unarmed combat as well.

Without any weapons Lelith Hesperax would probably break every bone in her hand punching a Space Marine in the chin lol.

Eldar are too physically weak to compete unarmed against the various posthumans of the Imperium or the inhumanly robust Orks, or the literally made of space metal Necrons.

A Necron like Obyron might be a solid contender as well simply because Astartes might seriously struggle to hurt him at all. He's not wearing armour like they are, his durability is just how strong his body is.

Andredre wrote:

And Yea Nurgle is fine, even Tyranids. Just no guns or psychers. Just straight combat hand to hand, claw to claw, teeth to teeth.

Then basically you give a ridiculous advantage to any Tyranid. They can kill Space Marines in full gear and armed, it's going to be a joke to kill one unarmed and unarmored. A simple genestealer will basically kill anything in its way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Without any weapons Lelith Hesperax would probably break every bone in her hand punching a Space Marine in the chin lol.
.

A Space Marine would probably break every bone in his hand if he hit another Space Marine or something similarly robust like and ork or an ogryn in the chin. A jaw bone is much more robust than finger bones. That's why boxers wear gloves. You can't hit that hard on that part of the body without seriously hurting yourself as much as the guy you are hitting. If Lelith was smart and she is, she would hit the Space Marine in softer area like the eyes or the throat.

Two words.
The first one is Sly.
The second one in Marbo.

epronovost wrote:

Andredre wrote:

And Yea Nurgle is fine, even Tyranids. Just no guns or psychers. Just straight combat hand to hand, claw to claw, teeth to teeth.

Then basically you give a ridiculous advantage to any Tyranid. They can kill Space Marines in full gear and armed, it's going to be a joke to kill one unarmed and unarmored. A simple genestealer will basically kill anything in its way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Without any weapons Lelith Hesperax would probably break every bone in her hand punching a Space Marine in the chin lol.
.

A Space Marine would probably break every bone in his hand if he hit another Space Marine or something similarly robust like and ork or an ogryn in the chin. A jaw bone is much more robust than finger bones. That's why boxers wear gloves. You can't hit that hard on that part of the body without seriously hurting yourself as much as the guy you are hitting. If Lelith was smart and she is, she would hit the Space Marine in softer area like the eyes or the throat.

back when I took Karate we where told the only place basicly worth punching on the head was the nose. which was a great place to hit because it was fragile and punching someone there naturally makes their eyes tear up

epronovost wrote:

Andredre wrote:

And Yea Nurgle is fine, even Tyranids. Just no guns or psychers. Just straight combat hand to hand, claw to claw, teeth to teeth.

Then basically you give a ridiculous advantage to any Tyranid. They can kill Space Marines in full gear and armed, it's going to be a joke to kill one unarmed and unarmored. A simple genestealer will basically kill anything in its way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Without any weapons Lelith Hesperax would probably break every bone in her hand punching a Space Marine in the chin lol.
.

A Space Marine would probably break every bone in his hand if he hit another Space Marine or something similarly robust like and ork or an ogryn in the chin. A jaw bone is much more robust than finger bones. That's why boxers wear gloves. You can't hit that hard on that part of the body without seriously hurting yourself as much as the guy you are hitting. If Lelith was smart and she is, she would hit the Space Marine in softer area like the eyes or the throat.

True that’s why I originally didn’t want to include them but it seemed like people feel this was too limiting.

As for lelith? Is she skilled with hand to hand combat or did she fight in arena combat with weapons?
The most efficient spots would be the throat, eyes, testicles(im sure Astartes still have those) etc.
tho I could see ORKS, Ogryn, necrons and daemons unarmed being able to use head butts, elbows, knees, kicks and stomps.
I know Nork Deddog killed a Warboss with a single head butt.

Idk why I imagine Eldar being some Kung fu flying around mf’s that know how to hit pressure points n gak.

I wonder if Astartes or imperial guardsmen learning some sort of grappling arts. .
Come to think submissions and joint locks are probably the only way to beat a necron unarmed. They are too hard to punch. I know that’s how jujitsu was invented in Japan. To beat armored samurai.

Andredre wrote:
As for lelith? Is she skilled with hand to hand combat or did she fight in arena combat with weapons?

Considering that Lelith is basically several thousand years old and is a professionnal arena fighter without peers, so talented that even immortal being enjoy her fighting prowess, there is probably no way of killing something or someone she hasn't tried. She can fight with a variety of weapons and can certainly kill someone with every single part of her body, though her hairs seem to be reknown to be deadly weapons.

Yeah, that was my thinking. Not EVERY Eldar is going to be a... what was the term? "Kung fu flying around mf" but SHE certainly is. And while it isn't mentioned, I strongly suspect she'd have experience of unarmed combat.
Also she'd definitely have experience killing Space Marines in the arena, since we know they're highly prized captives she'd be among the first to call dibs on getting that fight.

 Super Ready wrote:

Also she'd definitely have experience killing Space Marines in the arena, since we know they're highly prized captives she'd be among the first to call dibs on getting that fight.

She killed Hervald Strom, the geatest Space Marine swordsmen since Sigismund, in a duel. She was armed with a pair of knives and wearing no armor or fancy tools and he was armed with a relic blade and an artificier armor. The duel was her hardest at that point, lasted 5 hours and she suffered a cut at her midrift.

Yeah, unless we're throwing in daemons or Tyranids (and even then, I'm not sure it'd be enough), Hesperax should win most hand-to-hand duels unarmed/unarmoured against anything her size and probably up to an Ogryn.

She's a multi-thousand year old champion of Commoragh, her kill tallies with just her feet are probably higher than a squad of veteran guardsmen. As far as I'm concerned, the "unarmed and unarmoured" portion of this is meaningless to her.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yeah, unless we're throwing in daemons or Tyranids (and even then, I'm not sure it'd be enough), Hesperax should win most hand-to-hand duels unarmed/unarmoured against anything her size and probably up to an Ogryn.

She's a multi-thousand year old champion of Commoragh, her kill tallies with just her feet are probably higher than a squad of veteran guardsmen. As far as I'm concerned, the "unarmed and unarmoured" portion of this is meaningless to her.

If she had a kid with Sly Marbo, the universe would be in grave danger.

On the "just guardsmen" side I personally would assume the Deathkorps being also quite well placed. I'm not sure they would best a Catachan (although purely by rules, S3 WS3+ and S4 WS4+ is the same against T3), but they are pretty used to fighting in trenches and a cage fight is not that different. Also I imagine there are at least some guardsmen that would hesitate mauling another guardsman to death barehanded even if told so or won't go "all in" in an attempt to avoid being gravely wounded themselves - restraints the Deathkorps should rarely show.

In a "everyone against everyone" match, the guardsmen would likely place more at the bottom, but I think better than some expect.

epronovost wrote:

A Space Marine would probably break every bone in his hand if he hit another Space Marine or something similarly robust like and ork or an ogryn in the chin. A jaw bone is much more robust than finger bones. That's why boxers wear gloves. You can't hit that hard on that part of the body without seriously hurting yourself as much as the guy you are hitting. If Lelith was smart and she is, she would hit the Space Marine in softer area like the eyes or the throat.

Are you under the impression that any time in history someone caught a guy on the chin without gloves or wraps that they broke every bone in his hand? Finger bones are more fragile than the jaw sure, and the possibility of breaking knuckles is there, but there's a world of difference between hurting your hand checking someone's chin without a glove and shattering your hand punching a solid slab of stone as hard as you can. That's what Lelith is essentially trying to do by comparison.

A Marine punching a Marine "might" break his hand. An Eldar definitely will.

Marines are strong enough to literally shatter the skulls of squishier species like humans and Eldar with a punch, and can take getting beaten by each other with nothing but bruises. The difference in strength and durability is too high.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Are you under the impression that any time in history someone caught a guy on the chin without gloves or wraps that they broke every bone in his hand? Finger bones are more fragile than the jaw sure, and the possibility of breaking knuckles is there, but there's a world of difference between hurting your hand checking someone's chin without a glove and shattering your hand punching a solid slab of stone as hard as you can. That's what Lelith is essentially trying to do by comparison.

A Marine punching a Marine "might" break his hand. An Eldar definitely will.

Marines are strong enough to literally shatter the skulls of squishier species like humans and Eldar with a punch, and can take getting beaten by each other with nothing but bruises. The difference in strength and durability is too high.

I think you might be missing the point here. Lelith - and certainly any smart Eldar - ain't gonna go for punching the Marine in the jaw, because they already know that's not gonna work.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Are you under the impression that any time in history someone caught a guy on the chin without gloves or wraps that they broke every bone in his hand? Finger bones are more fragile than the jaw sure, and the possibility of breaking knuckles is there, but there's a world of difference between hurting your hand checking someone's chin without a glove and shattering your hand punching a solid slab of stone as hard as you can. That's what Lelith is essentially trying to do by comparison.

A Marine punching a Marine "might" break his hand. An Eldar definitely will.

Marines are strong enough to literally shatter the skulls of squishier species like humans and Eldar with a punch, and can take getting beaten by each other with nothing but bruises. The difference in strength and durability is too high.

I think you might be missing the point here. Lelith - and certainly any smart Eldar - ain't gonna go for punching the Marine in the jaw, because they already know that's not gonna work.

Why punch a Marine in the jaw when your fingernails are as sharp as scalpels, and your hair is hooked and barbed?

I mean, she already fights without armour, and even without combat drugs or narcotics. She can already kill most opponent one-on-one even WITH armour, so the whole "no armour, no weapons" thing only makes her stronger by comparison.