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If you are bare knuckle (and mma isn't, so you don't have to worry too much, those small gloves will provide some protection) then you can still punch, you just need to be calculated with how often and what power involved. Elbows and hammer fists are king anyway in such a situation mainly due to the power generated and hand protection they give, also with the augmentations marines have, I don't think they need to worry too much/often about breaking bones. They will have done numerous hours of hand to hand combat/drilling/sparring without armour, and here's something else, you start early enough, you can condition bone, this has been proven in thai's. So breaking hands really is going to be not too huge a concern of marines, on top of that, you see fighters carry on punching and kicking with broken hands/feet in our mma... If you are tough enough, it doesn't actually stop you, and marines are tough.

Anyway, marines are a problem for anyone in this, unless the opponent happens to have built in weapons in the form of claws etc. Genestealers genuinely do probably beat anything outside of the biggest, meanest most durable orks who can absorb so much damage and grab hold of the stealer to crush them (literally, think the mountain in GoT's) and other large tyranid creatures and daemons.

Marines vs marines though, skill level is going to be fairly similar, so I'd go with the marines from chapters with the most controlled yet destructive savagery and aggression... Space wolves, flesh tearers etc etc for loyalists, I'd be surprised if any marines on the chaos side can match a bezerker in such a contest.

Oh and I forgot: I think Ogryn would also come out not too bad. On the minus side they are rather slow and I guess a marine or melee capable eldar that is worth it's salt should be able to not get hit but land enough hits themselves (assuming that eldar can hit some vital points like eyes, throat etc.) but on the plus side they are big, strong, sturdy and not used to be reliant on equipment anyway. I think they should be able to take on any normal Human, Eldar, Tau, the smaller Tyranid creatures and not too big Orks. And if they manage to hit or grab a Marine even they should be in trouble. Not tourneywinners, but definitly candidates for the higher tournament rounds.

Let's not forget Custodes. They'd beat out anything Imperial (maybe even Assassins), and likely most other things too. Necrons? Punchable. Ogryns? Fairly sure I've read about Custodes literally ripping out Ogryn spines barehanded. Eldar/Dark Eldar? Custodes are pretty quick enough to counter all but the fastest.

Still, in the "roughly human to Ogryn" size category, my money still goes to Lelith, probably closely followed by other Succubi and the Custodes Tribunes.

I like the way this thread is going. Very interesting replies.
I have to look into Lelith now.
But the Custodes definitely have to be on the upper tier.
Also, no gloves and barely any rules besides must be fought inside the cage/arena. And let’s just say the cage is made of adamantium about the same size as the regular ufc octagon.
I think Astartes could punch eachother a decent amount of times before suffering broken bones. But an Eldar or human would easily break bones punching an Astarte.

@pryoalchi
Plus there’s the Krourk Ogryns who especially violent and were sent to eliminate an ork invasion on Armageddon with nothing but clubs n gak

Aren't custodes able to survive decapitation also? Fairly sure it is in lore that the head was still alive...

Customer are a huge problem for anything though, they may be as fast as a gene stealer and certainly more intelligent, they may be able to kill one, certainly not a sure thing though, I'd say the advantage is still to the stealer.

Big warboss size orks are a challenge for many also, they can take a beating, can dish one out... I think they beat Ogryns personally. Something to bear in mind for both, is that in mma, submissions are also a thing, however, good look trying to choke them unconscious with how thick they are, breaking limbs will also be difficult, marines and custodes may be able to arm bar them for example, but many races would struggle.

Pound for pound, I can't imagine anyone more lethal unarmored and unarmed than Lelith.

That probably even includes Tyranids (who cheat, since they're always armed/armored).

I'd love to see Guilliman vs ghazzie. I don't think either of them can get out of their power-assisted awesome armour, so the chances are you'd plonk them both in the ring and they'd find themselves slapping each other meekly, they're so used to their armour doing all the work for them

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Pound for pound, I can't imagine anyone more lethal unarmored and unarmed than Lelith.

That probably even includes Tyranids (who cheat, since they're always armed/armored).

Pound for Pound you are probably right, shame this isn't taking into account weight catagories fully

I think she'd potentially struggle against Ghaz etc.

What would be super super interesting is IF the Khan is a slave in Commorragh, if she has dueled against him? She is unbeaten, meaning she has beaten a primarch...

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Pound for pound, I can't imagine anyone more lethal unarmored and unarmed than Lelith.

That probably even includes Tyranids (who cheat, since they're always armed/armored).

Well, pound for pound, I think we can say that Lelith is pretty darn skinny. She probably weight much less than a termagaunt.

 Super Ready wrote:


I think you might be missing the point here. Lelith - and certainly any smart Eldar - ain't gonna go for punching the Marine in the jaw, because they already know that's not gonna work.

And then they're going to lose, for the same reason no human being on the entire planet can beat a rhinocerous in a fight.

Skill doesn't mean anything fighting an opponent so strong he can crush your skull with his finger grip.

I concur. In fact. I think the better comparison is fighting a gorilla or a bear... You may be able to pierce the skin, but it's not going to stop them before they stop you...

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why punch a Marine in the jaw when your fingernails are as sharp as scalpels, and your hair is hooked and barbed?

I mean, she already fights without armour, and even without combat drugs or narcotics. She can already kill most opponent one-on-one even WITH armour, so the whole "no armour, no weapons" thing only makes her stronger by comparison.

Her fingernails could do little more than break the skin, and surely in a fight where the opponents are unarmed they don't have access to knives and barbs in their hair?

She kills them with blades sharp enough to slice through Power Armour like a hot knife through butter.

She doesn't have that here, and has to rely on nothing but her own physical power to harm her opponents. She'd probably beat any Eldar or baseline human in the galaxy under these stips, but she's going to be physically dominated by a Marine and be literally unable to harm him. Much less something like a Custodian.

I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned Kharne the Betrayer yet.

Got to admit that he would probably be more than capable of killing anyone in a bare-knuckle fight, He'd probably fight on fueled by fury alone even if someone did crush his skull...


As far as technicalities are concerned, I suspect Lucius the Eternal would be the best - one bit of pride, and Lucius would win the long game.

One wonders if the opponents face would appear on his MMA shorts. That's a harsh punishment...

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Her fingernails could do little more than break the skin

More than enough to slice a throat or even borrow her fingers deep inside her victim. The nails are as sharp as scalpel and probably have over a centimeter in length to be useful. Considering that they are implants or some sort of body mod, it wouldn't be removed by the rules thus she can use them.

PS: her weapons aren't power weapons. They are "normal sharp" by 40K standards. She can slice through power arrmor plating, she has to strike a weak spot.

See, the issue is that to do the Lelith has to get very close, within grappling range. And affectionally, slicing throats, sticking her nails in deep on an organ, that isn't going to kill a hell of a lot of things in 40k to be fair, marines would survive most 1 shot incisions unless it was too the brain, a slit throat will start clotting almost immediately...

And marines are nowhere near the scariest things that can survive attacks like that...

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
See, the issue is that to do the Lelith has to get very close, within grappling range. And affectionally, slicing throats, sticking her nails in deep on an organ, that isn't going to kill a hell of a lot of things in 40k to be fair, marines would survive most 1 shot incisions unless it was too the brain, a slit throat will start clotting almost immediately...

Technically Lelith, like most eldars, is about the same size as a regular Space Marine (about 7 foot tall). She is unlikely to kill anything in one blow indeed, but each blow slows down her opponents and she is incredibly faster that any Marine or Custodian. In fact, she's supernaturaly fast for a dark eldar who generaly think Space Marines are ponderous by their, in other words, quicksilver by the standard of people who are quicksilver.

PS: A Space Marine can die of a slit throat. Theur bloos clot fast, but not that fast. In First Heretic a Word Bearer officer dies of bloodloss after taking a spear in the throat before the apothecary can get to him.

Void__Dragon wrote:Her fingernails could do little more than break the skin

Disagree with that. We've seen how "scalpel sharp" equipment is capable of piercing Astartes flesh.

, and surely in a fight where the opponents are unarmed they don't have access to knives and barbs in their hair?

I'd personally say that those would be fair game, as much as anything like an Astartes physical augments would be - an un-droppable piece of equipment that the fighter carries.

She doesn't have that here, and has to rely on nothing but her own physical power to harm her opponents. She'd probably beat any Eldar or baseline human in the galaxy under these stips, but she's going to be physically dominated by a Marine and be literally unable to harm him. Much less something like a Custodian.

And that's why she's the deadliest fighter in Commoragh beyond all else, who can't even beat an unarmoured Space Marine?

Yeah right.

I'd like to mention that her main combat blades? They're just sharp knives. That's it. They're not superpowered, they're magically enhanced - just very very sharp knives - and she can go 10v1 with them. You seriously don't think that she could go 1v1 without those knives, with her speed, agility, and skill that leave even other Dark Eldar breathless? Again, I hasten to add - she's the single undisputed premiere combatant in Commoragh. Like, no-one else has come close. The arena where Space Marines are torn apart and butchered. And, before you say it - the DE don't exactly make the arena fights easy. They're designed to be threatening, challenging, difficult to the Wyches within, because that's how you get good shows!

I think you've vastly undersold her abilities.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:See, the issue is that to do the Lelith has to get very close, within grappling range. And affectionally, slicing throats, sticking her nails in deep on an organ, that isn't going to kill a hell of a lot of things in 40k to be fair, marines would survive most 1 shot incisions unless it was too the brain, a slit throat will start clotting almost immediately...

And marines are nowhere near the scariest things that can survive attacks like that...

But lacerated tendons? Exhaustion? Death from a thousand razor sharp, perfectly placed cuts? This is Lelith we're talking about. I have absolute faith in her ability to slip past an attempted grapple or counter - she's the champion of Commoragh!

I actually took a look at Lelith's background to check, and there isn't any mention of unarmed combat. It's not unreasonable to assume she HAS that experience, but... on balance, I can see how unarmed, she'd have an issue causing damage against the absolute very toughest of opponents like an Ork Warboss. Particularly, those where pressure points and vulnerabilities are hidden behind inches of thick skin or shells, if they even have any.

I still think she'd be able to take down your average Marine, no problems - that previous example of besting a renowned swordsman in full armour means she already knows where to strike and where their vulnerabilities are through that armour. Removing it just takes an obstacle out of her way, so Marine physiology shouldn't be an issue here, although she may well have to resort to those nails (assuming her hair barbs are disallowed).

So, would it be cheating to bring in a C'tan shard for the necron representatives?

cody.d. wrote:
So, would it be cheating to bring in a C'tan shard for the necron representatives?

Technicall yes. The only rules are no weapons (unless they are part of your body) and no psychic powers. While me and several others argue about Lelith's chances at being crowned champion of the human sized category, Tyranids are basically reigning supreme though you might be unto something with a C'tan. Their powers are technically not psychic powers though they do fall somewhat in the same category.

I still imagine the judges of this theoretical MMA tourney would be having fits at the various races. Some of which use extensive cybernetics like Orks or Ironhands which could hold goodness knows what imbedded surprises. Or those that could repair between rounds if a boxing like round system is in. The necron would simply be regenerating why the Ork could have his doc chop off a broken arm and graft on a new one. It would be wonderfully insane, like someone combined wacky races/Dastardly and Muttley in Their Flying Machines with a martial arts tournament.

Also anyone touched by chaos would naturally have an edge in their weight class. Lilith may struggle against someone marked with nurgle who feels little to no pain from concussive blows.

cody.d. wrote:
IAlso anyone touched by chaos would naturally have an edge in their weight class. Lilith may struggle against someone marked with nurgle who feels little to no pain from concussive blows.

Nugle worshipers have an edge caused by the fact they are absolutely repulsive and their body filled with parasite, fungus, disease and poison. They could win by getting hit "wimplo style"

epronovost wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
IAlso anyone touched by chaos would naturally have an edge in their weight class. Lilith may struggle against someone marked with nurgle who feels little to no pain from concussive blows.

Nugle worshipers have an edge caused by the fact they are absolutely repulsive and their body filled with parasite, fungus, disease and poison. They could win by getting hit "wimplo style"

Or projectile vomiting. But then again, certain nids would also have that ability.

I’d have to agree that Kharn would be a top dog.
I also think the Gal Vorbak would put in a lot of work too.
The Custodes are inconsistent tho. So I can’t say much about them.

Super Ready wrote:I actually took a look at Lelith's background to check, and there isn't any mention of unarmed combat.

And there's no mentions of Ork Warbosses in unarmed combat. Your point being?

Look at her track record in the arenas. Uncontestedly the best fighter, and her main weapons are a pair of regular knives sharpened to perfection. Just because we don't explicitly see "expert in unarmed combat" doesn't mean for a second that she probably isn't an unarmed expert - even more so than most factions. Razor sharp fingernails can do just as much, if not more, damage than simple punches.

It's not unreasonable to assume she HAS that experience, but... on balance, I can see how unarmed, she'd have an issue causing damage against the absolute very toughest of opponents like an Ork Warboss. Particularly, those where pressure points and vulnerabilities are hidden behind inches of thick skin or shells, if they even have any.

Razor sharp scalpel fingernails?

If things like regular combat knives and chainswords can pierce the skin and armour on those opponent (which they can), then Lelith's fingernails can.

Again - unarmed, she goes from carrying very very sharp knives, to having very sharp fingernails. Astartes go from carrying full blown swords and mauls and hammer to their bare knuckles, and lose their armour. Orks go from carrying power klaws and choppas to bare hands. If anyone's losing their biggest advantages, it's everyone else.

I still think she'd be able to take down your average Marine, no problems - that previous example of besting a renowned swordsman in full armour means she already knows where to strike and where their vulnerabilities are through that armour. Removing it just takes an obstacle out of her way, so Marine physiology shouldn't be an issue here, although she may well have to resort to those nails (assuming her hair barbs are disallowed).

No use being able to strike through armour if you can't also land important strikes on the person under it. All her tactics do is change between slipping past the armour into systematically targeting the weakest parts of the body. The target priority shifts.

She's just as vulnerable as ever, she loses no armour, no method of self-defences beyond simple agility - and yet, she's been plenty successful against opponents who've had far more things on their side than in this unarmed fight. Like, besting a renowned swordsman, for example. The renowned swordsman goes from having full armour and a sword with likely a very long reach, to absolutely nothing. Lelith goes from having no armour and a pair of knives, to nothing. Who loses more? The swordsman - the swordsman who already lost to Lelith even when she only had a pair of knives, and they had all their gear.

Basically, my point is this: Lelith already beats most fighters when they're carrying all their gear, and she only has a pair of knives. When they lose everything they had, armour, weapons, psychic enhancements, and Lelith only loses her knives, it skews things even further in her favour.

cody.d. wrote:
I still imagine the judges of this theoretical MMA tourney would be having fits at the various races. Some of which use extensive cybernetics like Orks or Ironhands which could hold goodness knows what imbedded surprises. Or those that could repair between rounds if a boxing like round system is in. The necron would simply be regenerating why the Ork could have his doc chop off a broken arm and graft on a new one. It would be wonderfully insane, like someone combined wacky races/Dastardly and Muttley in Their Flying Machines with a martial arts tournament.

Also anyone touched by chaos would naturally have an edge in their weight class. Lilith may struggle against someone marked with nurgle who feels little to no pain from concussive blows.

Now I'm picturing a jokaero making it to the first round because no one realized it's packing a whole arsenal in its fingertips.
It'd be promptly disqualified, but that would make for at least one funny match

I think Custodes win an MMA fight at least.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
*snippety*

I actually agree with you in principle on most of this. My only reservation is with the length of her nails - take Ghazzy as an example. He's *huge*. With her knives, it's easily imaginable that she'd know where to attack and would be able to find typical weak points, but with her much shorter fingernails (and we have her model as reference), there's a good chance that she can't actually get far enough through his skin to pierce anything actually vital. She could probably take his eyes out, but that's not gonna be enough to stop an Ork that's survived being decapitated.

I still imagine the judges of this theoretical MMA tourney would be having fits at the various races.

Yeah, I guess they'd have to come up with some way of trying to make the fights a bit fairer. Maybe some kind of... I don't know... "points system", or "power level", maybe.

Space Marines can spit acid, would that be against any rules..? Might give them an advantage in some instances.

As for causing damage unarmed, a blow to the throat is going to slow down most opponents (at least the ones that breathe through it anyway) enough to get some good follow ups in.

The acid spitting is indeed an issue, considering it can burn through strong metals when given enough time, that stuff is going to hurt if spat into a face/eye.

Additionally, I know some fluff has stated that you can 'slit a marine throat' but the story concerned is delivering a massive wound with serious blunt trauma, I happen to think a slicing to the throat, unless the head was grabbed and pulled downwards to increase the opening of the wound, it will be sealing within seconds, enough time for the marine to survive. You effectively need to half decapitate a marine to kill them via blood loss of the carotid arteries.

Other factors to remember with marines is that their rib caged is fused, and if they are primaris they have effectively metallic hard tissues (ligaments and tendons) as well as the Belasarian furnace which gives them regenerative capabilities if only for a short amount of time and it takes significant time to regenerate in itself.

Fluff space marines are absolute nails, I'm airing on the side that only the most exceptional eldar could kill one in hand to hand combat without weapons and not a single human could unless they got super lucky.